Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Codex Review RPG Codex Retrospective Review: Pillars of Eternity Revisited

Prime Junta

Guest
The principles I was referring to are the classic Sawyerisms, all of which are not merely design decisions but ideologies with respect to how games should be built; everyone should know by now what they are.

Examples: "there should be no hard counters in CRPG systems"; "builds should all be balanced against each other"; "receiving experience for combat leads to degenerate gameplay."

These are, in fact, principles.

Sorry bro, but none of these are Sawyerisms -- or principles.

Your criticism would be better if you demonstrated a rudimentary understanding of the thing you're attempting to criticise. As it is, discussion with you guys is a bit like trying to explain gravity to a flat-earther.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,498
82 monster types, how many of them are just humanoid reskinned ? Do you have to adapt your strategy to any of them ? No ! tank and spank worked for 99.99% of the encounters , except that one dragon fight( in the "megadungeon" one big corridor Bethesda dungeon's design team wouldnt deny) where you have to kite. Tyranny allow to make your own spells that's why i rate it slightly better, that doesnt mean extraordinary. Good RTWP combat is always inferior to good turn based combat ,and it's not even good...As for the writing only MCA parts are good ,thats not a whole lot amongst that sea of inane writing.
Now when i am reading rpgwatch reviews they sound edgy compare to codex ones.

You can't tank and spank in PoE any more than you can in any party-based RPG. Besides, what's wrong with having frontliners, anything but mage duels aren't acceptable anymore?

Your complaints about RTwP and turn-based are irrelevant. This is such a stupid complaint that can be summarised as "RTwP shouldn't exit because I don't like them", if you don't like RTwP play something else.

I am amongst the 10.4% of steam players who finished this so called masterpiece, i never had to think to overcome any challenge there. It was even easier with the bots IA they added. Almost no player input was ever needed.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,628
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
"Damage immunities" and "hard counters" aren't technically the same thing. A damage immunity is a "hard counter" if it's likely to make an enemy completely impervious to the extent that he can now faceroll your party UNLESS YOU DO THIS ONE THING. So a standard enemy who's immune to fire or can't be laid prone or something like that is not an example of a hard counter, because you still have plenty of other ways of dealing with him.

According to Josh in one of the Twitch livestreams leading up to the PoE2 Fig campaign, damage immunities didn't exist in PoE 1.0 because it was believed they would be too punishing for modern RPG audiences. He has never said he had an ideological objection to all damage immunities.
 

Grumpy Grognard

Inn Between Worlds
Developer
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
103
Location
Grizzled Gnoll's Gorge
I am amongst the 10.4% of steam players who finished this so called masterpiece, i never had to think to overcome any challenge there. It was even easier with the bots IA they added. Almost no player input was ever needed.

“We wanted to have no bad [character] builds” Sawyer, 2016

https://www.pcgamesn.com/pillars-of...ce-in-building-pillars-of-eternity-characters

With design direction like that, who needs combat mechanics?

I enjoyed the game, but man, it was piss easy.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
6,942
Location
Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
82 monster types, how many of them are just humanoid reskinned ? Do you have to adapt your strategy to any of them ? No ! tank and spank worked for 99.99% of the encounters , except that one dragon fight( in the "megadungeon" one big corridor Bethesda dungeon's design team wouldnt deny) where you have to kite. Tyranny allow to make your own spells that's why i rate it slightly better, that doesnt mean extraordinary. Good RTWP combat is always inferior to good turn based combat ,and it's not even good...As for the writing only MCA parts are good ,thats not a whole lot amongst that sea of inane writing.
Now when i am reading rpgwatch reviews they sound edgy compare to codex ones.

You can't tank and spank in PoE any more than you can in any party-based RPG. Besides, what's wrong with having frontliners, anything but mage duels aren't acceptable anymore?

Your complaints about RTwP and turn-based are irrelevant. This is such a stupid complaint that can be summarised as "RTwP shouldn't exit because I don't like them", if you don't like RTwP play something else.

I am amongst the 10.4% of steam players who finished this so called masterpiece, i never had to think to overcome any challenge there. It was even easier with the bots IA they added. Almost no player input was ever needed.

When did this happen? The game was rather lackluster earlier on as seen by the heavy amount of patches. I don't believe you never felt challenged against first eyeless ambush, concelhaut, any of the dragons or any of the bounties. Even at sub-potd difficulties.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I am amongst the 10.4% of steam players who finished this so called masterpiece, i never had to think to overcome any challenge there. It was even easier with the bots IA they added. Almost no player input was ever needed.

Post a video of your Llengrath fight, PotD difficulty. Or hell, I'll take Hard difficulty.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I guess some people just need to feel good about themselves for being smart enough to give their druids 18 WIS.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
10,098
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Really, what will make one druid build notably different from another?

PrimeJunta said:
*provides examples*

Both is valid, yes, and they do play differently. I never argued that they wouldn't.

You guys are modular as fuck, I'll give you that
I'm sorry you do not understand the difference between a character build and a player's choice of what to actually do in combat.
Let me rephrase: Stats are irrelevant because with any distribution of stats (or skills/abilities, even!) any build can do everything anyway. The objectively optimal build for a certain play style is only a bit better at it than just putting all stats on the same value.
 
Last edited:

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,498
I am amongst the 10.4% of steam players who finished this so called masterpiece, i never had to think to overcome any challenge there. It was even easier with the bots IA they added. Almost no player input was ever needed.

Post a video of your Llengrath fight, PotD difficulty. Or hell, I'll take Hard difficulty.
Would have to redownload ,reinstall it and spend hours to reach that point ...I prefered ancient time, when you wanted one's honor restored you were just meeting at dawn and dueling with swords or pistols. Really i would prefer that,probably less painfull than going through that borefest again.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,762
Location
Copenhagen
I'm sorry you do not understand the difference between a character build and a player's choice of what to actually do in combat..

I realize you're implying that the difference between those two builds doing the same job will be negligible. It's the main reason how I can know that you have very little actual understanding of the game. One of those builds deals A LOT of damage in its form of choice, the other does not (those are not the only differences by far, though). It's so simple the only way you could argue otherwise is if you're just arguing whatever points fit your bias the best regardless of the actual facts.
 
Last edited:

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,762
Location
Copenhagen
It's not an issue of agreeing or disagreeing, it's a fact in the same way that the earth is fucking round. The Tankcaster's build does not come close to the Wolf build's damage in that form and lacks MULTIPLE talents that compound effectiveness - for example a talent that enables big impact hits on target's with low Deflection.
 
Last edited:

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
10,098
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's not an issue of agreeing or disagreeing, it's a fact in the same way that the earth is fucking round. The Tankcaster's build does not come close to the Wolf build's damage in that form and lacks MULTIPLE talents that compound effectiveness - for example a talent that enables big impact hits on target's with low Deflection.
Just do it yourself if you don't believe me.
In all difficulties except the very hardest (and even there only in a few fights), the "non optimal" build will work just fine. Worse than the "optimal" one, sure. By a pretty small margin.
Really, what's the difference between "you win" and "you win a bit easier"?
In the end, positioning and combat strategy will be way more important than the build.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Let me rephrase: Stats are irrelevant because with any distribution of stats (or skills/abilities, even!) any build can do everything anyway.

:sigh:

You keep asserting shit that's just flat-out false.

Have you actually /tried/ any of it? E.g. building a tanky fighter vs a hurty fighter, and then attempting to play the tanky one as a damager and the hurty one as a tank? I have.

(Of course, everything is relative. It is true that in AD&D there is only one optimal way to distribute your stats per class, and making the wrong choices will give you an unplayable character -- a wizard who can't cast spells, or a fighter who won't do any weapon damage. Why someone would consider a system with only one right way to distribute stats per class good is beyond me though. I mean, why even have stats in a such a system? You might as well bake the bonuses directly into the classes and get rid of the system altogether. Always assuming you're using a point-buy system rather than a genuinely random one; cf. my comment about stats in original tabletop D&D.)
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
10,098
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Have you actually /tried/ any of it? E.g. building a tanky fighter vs a hurty fighter, and then attempting to play the tanky one as a damager and the hurty one as a tank? I have.
I did rather excessively (with a Cipher) back when PoE was at 1.5 or so, to get to know the system because I still thought it mattered. Figured out that it didn't.
And a few months after White March came out, I created a number of characters (druid, this time) with just utterly "nonsensical" and random stats. All of them worked good enough, no matter how lulzy the stat distribution was.
With one, I even finished the game.

If that isn't enough for you to think that I know what I'm talking about, well... bad luck?

(Of course, everything is relative. It is true that in AD&D there is only one optimal way to distribute your stats per class, and making the wrong choices will give you an unplayable character -- a wizard who can't cast spells, or a fighter who won't do any weapon damage. Why someone would consider a system with only one right way to distribute stats per class good is beyond me though. I mean, why even have stats in a such a system? You might as well bake the bonuses directly into the classes and get rid of the system altogether. Always assuming you're using a point-buy system rather than a genuinely random one; cf. my comment about stats in original tabletop D&D.)
I agree. AD&D is a very dull system, and its implementation in the IE games is even just an abridged version of it.

You might as well bake the bonuses directly into the classes and get rid of the system altogether

This was actually Sawyer's first intention, since he wanted to focus all efforts on the talents. *dodge and roll for incoming butthurt*
Why butthurt? It would have been better than the current stat system with its barely mattering influences...
Honestly, there are already quite a lot of classes available, and they are pretty different from one another and even allow a few play styles. That's "good enough" for me.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,592
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
And there really are a staggering amount of build variety in PoE at this point, much more than most RPGs and certainly way, waaaaaaaaaay the fuck more than in the IE games.
Are you kidding me?
You can still distribute your skill/attribute points randomly as everything influences everything to a degree, and play just fine with that character. The minuscule differences from an "optimized" build don't even matter on PotD, except for maybe a handful of fights, and that's hardly an argument.
The only "build option" is your choice of class, but from that point on, it's all the same. In the IE games you at least had to understand the system to create a good starting build. But from that point on, both the IE games and PoE offer very little in terms of advancement choices.

And in Pathfinder/D&D3.5 there were many ways to build very different but working characters within the same class. Because it has feats that are actual game-changers and not just a few % here and there.

Really, what will make one druid build notably different from another?
I do not agree your assessment on attributes, at least not for all classes. I would use Priests as an example. You will have different stat priorities depending on whether you want to be a buffbot, a damage dealer, or a melee Priest. More specifically, the difference between these three builds is how much you need Might/Intellect, Perception (spell or melee accuracy), Resolve (interrupt resistance), and Constiution. A heal bot typically just needs Might and Intellect. A glass canon definitely will want a mix of Might, Intellect, and Perception. Unlike the first two, a melee Priest will want Perception, Resolve, and Constitution. Priests have a lower endurance ratio and beginning accuracy, and so you need to compensate for this on melee builds. In my opinion, the class is too squishy not to optimize your stats if you want a melee build. In fact, I do not think you can have a valid melee Priest without some balance of Constiution, Resolve, and Perception on PotD. Alternatively, there is a melee Priest of Skaen build that focuses on sneak attacks, but I do not know enough about it to comment. For this reason, I disagree that stats can be randomly assigned for any class.

Another point I would make is that accuracy and concentration matter. In early game and even late game encounters on PotD, I would argue a little extra concentration or accuracy can go a long way (i.e., more Perception), especially with the difference between a glancing blow, a full blow, and a crit. My favorite example is the Twin Dragon fight in the White March. To give background, I had a glass canon Priest that pumped Might and Intellect (and some Perception) and that dumped Resolve. My strategy was to self buff my Priest (reached 40+ might) and dish out as many AoEs (Shining Beacon, Divine Storm, etc) as I could, and the rest of my party was a meat shield. The build was great, except when it wasn't. In that Twin Dragon fight, I essentially did no damage to the Dragons, because my Priest was either interrupted (little to no Resolve) or the Dragons defense threshold brought my spell damage down to practically nothing. At that point, my glass canon was relgated to a revive and heal bot (a shitty one at that), while the rest of my party took down the dragons (mainly my custom Wizard that focused on perception and conjured weapons).

My last point will be that the enemy AI in the White March focuses on casters from my experience. My cutsey glass canon build was fun, but often got screwed by ranged enemies or spell casters interrupting it. The Twin Dragon fight was not the only instance where I got burned for optimizing for just damage on my Priest.

The only counter example that comes to mind is fighters.

In the end, positioning and combat strategy will be way more important than the build.

On principle, I agree, but that is a slightly different argument than stats being irrelevant. If you create a melee Priest with little Constitution, Perception, or Resolve, then you will have a bad time.

One factor factor that I believe is missing from your analysis is that classes have different base accuracy, deflection, and endurance/health scores. This difference grows larger with each level. Based on the Pillars wiki (I cannot verify its accuracy), Barbarians have the highest endurance ratio, whereas Fighters have the highest base deflection and accuracy scores. In contrast, Priest has one of the lowest base deflection, accuracy, and endurance scores, and to rehash a point I made above, you need to compensate for these weaknesses in a melee Priest build.
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,505
Location
The border of the imaginary
But no one is saying it's 11/10! FFS, the "shill's review" has an entire section - over 900 words - just talking about how bad the "wikipedia lore dump" is:
The main problem with the setting is that Pillars of Eternity is so concerned with delivering its heavy lore that most characters do not act like characters but rather deliver their lines much like walking Wikipedia articles. After playing Pillars of Eternity for a while, you start to dread clicking the 'Talk' icon hovering over random NPCs, because all too often, initiating dialogue is functionally identical to clicking hyperlinks on everyone's favorite, digital encyclopedia.
But Grunker grossly under-emphasizes how shit it s with his verbose grunking, making it sound somewhat excusable. Kind of like the lore dumps in poE which are pages of text yet have so little substance.

"the patches & expansions really improved some parts of the game'
Good luck getting Grunker to admit that in the review. His lips and hands cannot let go of Swayer's cock. Almost all his arguments defending sections of the review no 3 assume the viewpoint of Swayer and how great are his accomplishments and not how it is for the player or how it compares to the IE games. And his intro is downright retarded. Do you seriously have no issues with his intro?


POE IS WORSE THAN GARBAGE!!!1".
It is compared to BG2. :smug:
 

jaydee2k

Savant
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
449
POE is the reinvention of crack when you compare it to other modern *non-indie* computer games and now fuck off you damn niggers.

giphy.gif
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom