Preview RPG Codex Preview: Blackguards 2

[Vault Dweller]

That comparison is pretty bullshit. Your game was criticized for the way it implemented its difficulty even by many Codexers. Blackguards was not. As such, the criticism of difficulty traversing the two games was different.

Do you really think AoD would sell more if you removed all randomness and trimmed down the character building? The entire point is that your main audience is guys like us.

Blackguards may rake in some extra cash from random folks, but I feel pretty convinced that the core audience of blackguards is the aforementioned trifecta. And they lose those guys if they streamline too much.

You missed the point.

Yes, my audience (and that of Daedalic, Logic Artists, etc) is people like you but - and that's a HUGE but - it's relatively easy to do extremely well on Steam because they have 6 million daily visitors constantly buying shit. An small studio can never capture a big chunk of it but it doesn't have to. Make it appealing and you can easily sell 100,000 copies to people who were simply curious.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

MEH! Another sequel going down the shitter.

Will buy it when it hits the bargain bin, if everything written above makes it to the final game then the game itself isnt worth more.

 

[tuluse]

That comparison is pretty bullshit. Your game was criticized for the way it implemented its difficulty even by many Codexers. Blackguards was not. As such, the criticism of difficulty traversing the two games was different.

Do you really think AoD would sell more if you removed all randomness and trimmed down the character building? The entire point is that your main audience is guys like us.

Blackguards may rake in some extra cash from random folks, but I feel pretty convinced that the core audience of blackguards is the aforementioned trifecta. And they lose those guys if they streamline too much.

You missed the point.

Yes, my audience (and that of Daedalic, Logic Artists, etc) is people like you but - and that's a HUGE but - it's relatively easy to do extremely well on Steam because they have 6 million daily visitors constantly buying shit. An small studio can never capture a big chunk of it but it doesn't have to. Make it appealing and you can easily sell 100,000 copies to people who were simply curious.

Are people going to buy a sequel to a game they found too difficult (or heard was too difficult)?

 

[tuluse]

Yeah. I meant Checkers. Somehow everyone I know calls it backgammon for no reason it seems. Also, I have no idea that AoE had any random elements. Source?

I haven't played AoE in years I might be wrong about units having damage ranges.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Are people going to buy a sequel to a game they found too difficult (or heard was too difficult)?

It simply doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Infinitron]

VD, you yourself noted in your review that this strategy didn't work out very well for Bioware in Dragon Age 2. Slam-dunk low budget AND dumbed down is a recipe for trouble.

 

[tuluse]

VD, you yourself noted in your review that this strategy didn't work out very well for Bioware in Dragon Age 2. Slam-dunk low budget AND dumbed down is a recipe for trouble.

Well DA2 was both dumbed down and bad.

If you have dumbed down and "good" like say KotOR, sales do quite well.

 

[Infinitron]

VD, you yourself noted in your review that this strategy didn't work out very well for Bioware in Dragon Age 2. Slam-dunk low budget AND dumbed down is a recipe for trouble.

Well DA2 was both dumbed down and bad.

If you have dumbed down and "good" like say KotOR, sales do quite well.

KOTOR wasn't a slam-dunk! (KOTOR2, on the other hand...but that was more complex, with the stances and lightsaber customization and stuff)

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, you yourself noted in your review that this strategy didn't work out very well for Bioware in Dragon Age 2. Slam-dunk low budget AND dumbed down is a recipe for trouble.

Different things. These days a AAA project needs to sell 2 mil to break even, so the studio is aiming to hit at least 3-4 mil, hopefully 10-15. Skyrim, for example, sold 20 mil in 3 years. I'm sure that Bethesda will want the next game to sell at least 10-15 mil on release, which will require a completely different strategy. Basically, there is a huge difference between making a game that 3-5% of Steam users will want to buy and a game that most people on Steam will want to buy plus selling a few million copies outside Steam.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, I'm glad to hear that you recognize differences between classes of games. In this case however you're probably wrong.

We'll see.

 

[StaticSpine]

Thanks for the preview.

The best thing for me in Blackguards were the "hand-crafted" encounters, most of wich were some kind of tactical tasks and it was awesome. Now it seems Blackguards 2 won't have those.

 

[Infinitron]

Thanks for the preview.

The best thing for me in Blackguards were the "hand-crafted" encounters, most of wich were some kind of tactical tasks and it was awesome. Now it seems Blackguards 2 won't have those.

Keep in mind that our interview said it would definitely have those: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9521

To conclude the interview, one of the high points of the first game was how creative and unique some of the battles and battle scenes were, sometimes to the point of resembling puzzles in their design. Can we expect more crazy ideas like that in the sequel?

Hell yeah! The same core team of level designers is working on Blackguards 2, and we became more experienced and more insane. In Blackguards 2, simple 'kill all enemies' battle scenarios will be the exception.

 

[StaticSpine]

Thanks for the preview.

The best thing for me in Blackguards were the "hand-crafted" encounters, most of wich were some kind of tactical tasks and it was awesome. Now it seems Blackguards 2 won't have those.

Keep in mind that our interview said it would definitely have those: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9521

To conclude the interview, one of the high points of the first game was how creative and unique some of the battles and battle scenes were, sometimes to the point of resembling puzzles in their design. Can we expect more crazy ideas like that in the sequel?

Hell yeah! The same core team of level designers is working on Blackguards 2, and we became more experienced and more insane. In Blackguards 2, simple 'kill all enemies' battle scenarios will be the exception.

but Roxor says all the battles he walked through were shit

 

[Emily]

Yeah i am sure little Billy that WRECKS in Call of duty doing 360 no scope kills will enjoy streamlining and the way the implemented new UI. Especially added strategic layer will influence his decision to play this game. Of course one would imagine that he didnt want to play the first game cause it was too hard, but now nothing is stopping him from playing this fine turn based action game.

Why would anyone believe this is beyond me.

 

[tuluse]

but Roxor says all the battles he walked through were shit

Hand crafted doesn't guarantee good!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah i am sure little Billy that WRECKS in Call of duty doing 360 no scope kills will enjoy streamlining and the way the implemented new UI. Especially added strategic layer will influence his decision to play this game. Of course one would imagine that he didnt want to play the first game cause it was too hard, but now nothing is stopping him from playing this fine turn based action game.

Why would anyone believe this is beyond me.

Because we aren't talking about little Billies and the entire casual or action markets. We are talking about very small percentages of Steam customer base that represent relatively large (for indie studios) markets.

 

[VioletShadow]

Grim. Didn't think Daedalic would fuck this up,

 

[GlutenBurger]

That's a rather pornographic smiley combo. And appropriately so.

 

[DefJam101]

Take AoD, for example. We sold 10,000 copies on Steam. Our demo was downloaded 18,000 times, conversion rate 10%. The number one complaint is the difficulty, followed by 'why can't I experience more of the game (i.e. why restrictions), followed by 'too complex'. We drop the difficulty, restrictions, and some complexity - we double the sales.

While I don't think you're entirely wrong here, you are ignoring the very real possibility that some (read: a lot of) people hold games to arbitrary standards based on their budget. I feel many of these "too difficult/random/complex" complaints boil down to* popamolers searching for reasons to hate a game they never gave a proper chance because it didn't adequately stimulate their next gen AAAwesome gland.

Short of switching genres into Diabloclone territory no amount of streamlining will change that, because Age of Decadence (while it has attractive production values) looks like a low budget Unity engine game to Joe McSteamsale. Since it looks like a low budget Unity engine game, it's going to be treated like one. People won't put any effort into figuring out how to play, will nitpick every little bug or oddity, and will immediately blame the game if — or rather when — they fail.

It's the Bethesda Paradox: Todd Howard and Pete "christ what is wrong with your face" Hines can release buggy, shitty, incomplete, unambitious, awkwardly animated piece of shit games time and again and escape with little more than a few, "You know, Oblivion really wasn't actually that amazing," retrospectives five years down the line when they've already sold sufficient copies to finance a small African country. Meanwhile, Potatosoft Entertainment Inc. can't release a rough around the edges yet charming game without YouTube flooding with "HAHA LOOK AT THIS BUG RIGHT HERE LOL THIS GAME IS SO BAD GABE PLS GET RID OF GREENLIGHT LMAOOO" videos.

Sure, simplifying AoD will earn you a few more sales. I highly, highly doubt it would double them. Extensive streamlining would result in your general dismissal as a shitty, bland Unity engine indie cashgrab instead of a grognardian, hardcorer-than-thou Unity engine hipster cashgrab. Either way, you're still stuck in the potatoland ghetto.

Spoiler

* No I do not mean to suggest there are no legitimate criticisms of AoD's difficulty/randomness, faggots




by the way RELEASE THE FUCKIN GAME ALREADY VD HOLY SHIT IT'S BEEN LIKE ELEVENTY YEARS

 

[Shannow]

Well, in BG2 we'll have a direct empirical comparison, won't we.
Will it sell better than BG1? Perhaps even double? (VD switches between double and 10x but we'll be fair and go with double )
From simply BG1+ I'd have expected some 30-60% sales increase. You keep your previous player-base and get some who were simply put off by obnoxious UI and stuff. You might also interest some new players with the strategy layer. (And I used to pirate 1st parts in my youth and then buy the sequels if I liked it. I expect there are still such people around.)
With the way this has turned out, I'd expect the previous player base to be antagonized (like eg. DAtoo or FO3). I sure am. Lets see how it turns out for them.

 

[Koschey]

Fuck, this shit is depressing.

 

[Darth Roxor]

One hour left till stream

 

[Vault Dweller]

Will it sell better than BG1? Perhaps even double? (VD switches between double and 10x but we'll be fair and go with double )

Depends on the game. Some TB indie rpgs sold 2-3 times more, some 5-10 times more. Not saying it's because they are dumbed down, but being more accessible, welcoming, and easier does help. These numbers define the customer base an indie developer can count on (and these are the numbers that I know of, i.e. it's likely that this market is much bigger since most developers don't discuss their sales publicly).

The simplest proof is the fact that BG2 was streamlined. Why? If Daedalic wasn't under the impression that they left a LOT of money on the table (as in disproportionally more than they took) due to difficulty and complexity, they wouldn't have made any changes to the established formula. Simple as that.

 

[Roguey]

That comparison is pretty bullshit. Your game was criticized for the way it implemented its difficulty even by many Codexers. Blackguards was not. As such, the criticism of difficulty traversing the two games was different.

Most helpful negative Steam review:

THIS IS THE BIGGY The chance to hit modifier is The MOST ANNOYING PART OF THIS GAME!!! YOU WILLL NEVER BE MORE FRUSTRATED, NEVER MISS AS MANY ATTACKS OR FAILED CASTING ATTEMPTS AS YOU WILL ENCOUNTER IN THIS GAME, It has rusulted in me personally restarting hundreds of encounters because this game is COMPLETLY GOVERNED BY RANDOM CHANCE! it will try to break you!!!!!!

Most helpful negative GOG review:

There is a saying: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results" In this game it's pretty much the only strategy.This is a fun game overall, good character development, plot, the voice acting is pretty good, and the dark atmosphere makes it all very interesting.Unfortunately, because of the total randomness involved in the combat, you can build a decent strategy and have it completely ruined by a missed arrow or failed spell. I understand that this is a turn-based system based on dice-rolls and that random things will happen, it just seems to happen so much more often in this game than in any other I've played. This game is very addictive, and--when fortune favours you--can be downright satisfying finally finishing some of the more difficult battles: which for me usually involves restarting the battle after any critical failure, and just doing the same thing over and over again until I get different results.

More from GOG

I don't understand the 5 star reviews here. While combat COULD have been alright if it wasn't plagued with a weird behavior regarding random numbers (missing 5 times in a row a 85% chance to land spell is...frustrating to say the least), the rest of the game is so dull and uninterestingly boring that it doesn't make up for it at all. You'll slog through fights that are meant to be fought ONE WAY and can't be won otherwise, dumb AI, bugs (i couldn't buy anything from a merchant), unrewarding quests and fights and overall a really poor attempt at making a RPG by Daedalic.

The problem is the underlying set of rules that controls Blackguards. I feel "The Dark Eye" may not be the best "engine" to power a strategy game, because of its dependency on randomness. Battles are won or lost by the toss of a coin, which has little to do with strategy.

Completely agree with Faenrir review. The entire combat mechanics are broken to say the least - the game heavily favors bows and crossbows, to a point where it is impossible to progress without at least one fully specialized archer. Furthermore, as already been mentioned, the fights feel way too random.

Misfortune Simulator: You have 85% to hit the enemy and you fail, 6 times, in a row. Everything is luck or, in this case, bad luck. The enemy archer will miss you 4 out of 5 times, but if he hits you, he drains around 50% of your life. If there are 2 archers and RN Jesus wants you dead, you're dead.It's not the worst game out there, but hell it's not even near a 4 or 5 star rating...

...but the random chance combat kill this game outright. Missing 3, 4 times in a row an attack, or an heal spell, with a 90% probability to succeed (with also RNG damage) is NOT fun, it's frustrating. There are also not enough skills, and only a few of them are actually useful.It's really a shame, without the RNG factor the combat would have been excellent, the use of the maps and items is pretty good and the character development is interesting. But there is no fun in doing a fight many, many times just because the RNG god hates you.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Make it stop...