Preview RPG Codex Preview: Blackguards 2

[Disgruntled]

Wow, what a letdown. I was looking forward to the strategic elements they were bringing with the sequel only to read about this popamole streamlining.

Sunk 100 hours into the first one and got my monies worth, not spending a cent on this unless there is a serious revelation towards release. With them recycling so many assets it wont even be worth playing for that 'new game' smell.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Interesting read, although everything pretty much boils down to "muh randomness".
Anyway, the system sounds really awful indeed. On the other hand, all the feggets complaining about low hit chances in Dragonfall (DC) will have their perfect RPG, no need to look any further.

 

[SirSingAlot]

sounds like a PS4 port.
decline

 

[Cyberarmy]

Meh, such a let down. Game didn't really need this kind of streamlining.
I probably buy it nevertheless (not D1P probably, gonna wait for some time first) to experience later stages of game. Maybe there'll be some good combat encounters I hope.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Is randomness really necessary to have an interesting role playing game ?

Yes. RNG is what separates the men from the boys. The RPG from the action game. The gentleman from the simpleton.

Clearly not in P&P

Lolwut. Every single PnP except some gimmicky shits has dicerolls everywhere.

But now when you mention it, I can't remember any decent games from Daedalic, apart from Deponia and Blackguards.

Faggot never played Memoria.


Also, like I mentioned in the other thread (which was also supposed to land in this newspost but Grunkers gonna grunk ), I will be streaming the preview version on Twitch ( http://www.twitch.tv/roxorowski ) saturday at 5pm GMT+1

 

[Grunker]

HEAR YE! HEAR YE!

Let it be known that Roxor will run a stream of this game on Saturday at 5PM, GMT+1. Tune in and watch the trainwreck in motion!

http://www.twitch.tv/roxorowski

 

[Cyberarmy]

I was secretly hoping for that masked lady is Sadja from Memoria, somewhat made her way to that place and time.

 

[Shannow]

Roxor's association of "randomness" with "character skill" is a little weird. I mean, I know what he means - the randomness is like an abstraction of what your character is doing in the chaos of combat. But when people say "character skill" they're usually referring to their character's stats and their very deterministic effects ON TOP of the random rolls, not the randomness itself.

Player skill: Decision to do something, eg. cast a spell of superdestruction. (In a good RPG this decision will depend -among other things- on your char's skill in the spell-of-superdestruction-department.)
Character skill: Chance to execute the action successfully. Depends on your char's stats and abilities. In TDE moreso than in many other systems (eg. in respect to spells). (If char skill is removed or made a no-brainer, as Roxor describes here, an RPG aspect/layer is removed.)
Randomness: To a certain degree staple of all good RPG systems. Serves as an abstaction of aspects that cannot be simulated. It's also simply a gameplay mechanic that many people enjoy. (Depending on degree, personal preference and implementation, obviously.)

Roxor is very clear in his statements. I don't see what's there to misunderstand...

Serves codex right to expect any incline to come from Germany post Gothic 2.

Blackguards 1 was post G2. Chaos Chronicles would also have been.

On Topic:


Also, @Roxor, post here already. I want to fist you. Been there, done that.

 

[Infinitron]

Roxor is very clear in his statements. I don't see what's there to misunderstand...

He said that the game eliminates all character skill because it has no randomness. Full stop. He doesn't mention this definition of character skill:

Character skill: Chance to execute the action successfully. Depends on your char's stats and abilities.

 

[Darth Roxor]

He said that the game eliminates all character skill because it has no randomness. Full stop. He doesn't mention this definition of character skill:

Because I figured it was obvious?

Damn newfags not understanding basic concepts.

 

[Infinitron]

He said that the game eliminates all character skill because it has no randomness. Full stop. He doesn't mention this definition of character skill:

Because I figured it was obvious?

Damn newfags not understanding basic concepts.

Sorry, but this part of your review is pretty unambiguous:

All of the above aspects converge into Blackguards 2's ultimate flaw. This simply isn’t a roleplaying game to me anymore. It's a "game with RPG elements™". 1) Daedalic have stripped the game of almost all the randomness that is vital to the RPG experience. When your attacks always hit, your spells are always cast and your attacks even always hit for the same frikkin' damage – yup, fixed damage values, weapons no longer have damage ranges – 2) you just have to ask: where does the character skill enter the picture?

1) There's no randomness.

2) Therefore, there's no "character skill".

And then you say this:

Literally everything you do here is influenced only by player skill. You simply look at the map, invent a plan of action from first to last step and carry it out without worrying about something not working. Panzer General was more of an RPG than this! And why? Because there were some people who whined about the random number generator. The same people who will probably not even bother to play this game, or who will quit in boredom before even leaving the prologue.

Meaning that the game is about "player skill" and not "character skill" because randomness can never foil a perfect plan of action.

If you were using the commonly accepted definition of character skill, you would say this instead: The game is about "player skill" and not "character skill" because you can win any fight with the same perfect plan no matter how you've built your characters.

 

[Darth Roxor]

because you can win any fight with a perfect plan no matter how you've built your character.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case too

1) There's no randomness.

2) Therefore, there's no "character skill".

The conclusion coming from these statements is sound, and I see no problem about it.

 

[Infinitron]

because you can win any fight with a perfect plan no matter how you've built your character.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case too

(I've amended that to "the same perfect plan". Being able to win fights with different tactics for different character builds is fine. Although of course lots of people love the option of building a gimped character who can never win with any plan.)

 

[thesheeep]

1) There's no randomness.

2) Therefore, there's no "character skill".

The conclusion coming from these statements is sound, and I see no problem about it.

I can understand systems that do not allow misses, but instead a miss becomes a "did not hit that well" with much less damage.
The end result is similar, character skill is still obviously involved.

And all of that is indeed less frustrating. I have played PnP RoA for a while and trust me, the random number distribution in that game makes you fail more often than not, with a character that is actually good at what he is doing. The whole group, all experienced PnP players, said "The setting rocks, the amount of character choices and detail of most things is great. But the constant failing is annoying as hell.". So, I do understand the desire to refactor this in a game.

And I was assuming that they did what I described above. Less damage instead of a miss. But it is really just guaranteed hit (after 2 attacks)...
Wow. What a failure.

I have not played Blackguards 1, but wanted to play both once part 2 is out. But this pretty much makes me want to play none of them. Playing part 1 while knowing part 2 is so much worse would just suck the joy out of it.

 

[Tramboi]

Lolwut. Every single PnP except some gimmicky shits has dicerolls everywhere.

Yeah sure.

 

[Darth Roxor]

You are welcome to give examples to the contrary.

 

[Tramboi]

Amber.
I have to admit most other interesting diceless stuff is very niche.

 

[Infinitron]

The conclusion coming from these statements is sound, and I see no problem about it.

Okay, but for most people that's not what "character skill" means. Character skill typically means "your character's performance is controlled by stats and you only give him high level orders". Randomness is something that happens on top of that, and at extreme levels, is actually antithetical to both "player skill" AND "character skill". For example, having a high Strength score that gives you +2 to damage doesn't mean as much when you have crazy -20 to +20 random modifiers on top of that, or whatever. And in an action-RPG, it's not very fun when you play skillfully but lose anyway because you keep getting bad rolls.

Bottom line: You wanna complain about no randomness? Complain about no randomness. "Character skill" isn't really relevant.

 

[vivec]

I too lament the lack of dice rolls. But that need not mean that the game is suddenly godawful. There is no doubt that a game without randomness can be done well not that this game completely lacks it anyway.

Also, what about the strategy layer? Is that done well enough to warrant such a 'huge' departure from the previous mechanics?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Okay, but for most people that's not what "character skill" means.

Citation needed.

Also, what about the strategy layer? Is that done well enough to warrant such a 'huge' departure from the previous mechanics?

I have no idea, I simply haven't seen enough of it. But tbh, calling it a "strategy layer" in the first place is a bit of a stretch. You are just picking missions and getting bonuses to your dudes from them, that's all there really is to it.

 

[FeelTheRads]

But tbh, calling it a "strategy layer" in the first place is a bit of a stretch. You are just picking missions and getting bonuses to your dudes from them, that's all there really is to it.

Sounds like a layer to me. Possibly an overlay. In fact, it sounds like a SYSTEM!

 

[vivec]

That is truly disappointing. Anything you found that Improved the game Roxor? Or everything is downhill?

 

[Darth Roxor]

That is truly disappointing. Anything you found that Improved the game Roxor? Or everything is downhill?

Like I mentioned in the preview, the narrative definitely looks better, and some of the spells were possibly revamped for the better. Otherwise... yeah, everything is just about downhill.

I have not played Blackguards 1, but wanted to play both once part 2 is out. But this pretty much makes me want to play none of them. Playing part 1 while knowing part 2 is so much worse would just suck the joy out of it.

Blaggardz 1 is a great game, and you really shouldn't deprive yourself of playing it just because the sequel is shit.

 

[Jaedar]

I think roxor has a point in saying that the game looks more like a strategy game than an RPG, based on what he has written.

I'd be perfectly fine with that in all honesty, as long as the fights were still good, but it sounds they have gone downhill too.

 

[Grunker]

^ my thoughts exactly