Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Heroic Liberator]

If this approach extrapolates on the whole game

it doesn't really but yea Wesp5 should definitely cut the turnstile from the basic patch

 

[502]

Also revisiting the game with the most recent Unofficial Patch and Werner, is there a reason to end every dialogue with a line by the PC? Since it's the Basic Version I'm guessing it's a precaution to prevent lock-ups or something like that.

e.g. Nines saying "I've got my eye on you, kid" in the Last Round used to be the end of that dialogue with captions instead of the dialogue interface and the PC moving freely. Same with Sebastian's "Here are the keys to your new haven, I hope it's to your liking".

 

[Wesp5]

it doesn't really but yea Wesp5 should definitely cut the turnstile from the basic patch

The Confession turnstile is already only part of the plus patch and you can ask Venus to remove it if you get stuck. It's not our fault that the Bloodlines source engine has bad physics ...

 

[Wesp5]

Also revisiting the game with the most recent Unofficial Patch and Werner, is there a reason to end every dialogue with a line by the PC?

There are several reasons: 1) in long sentences you see the facial animations better if you are kept in the dialogue camera, 2) some players like the option to cut the sentence short by pressing a key in case something is triggered only after the sentence is finished and 3) there are difficulties to display some foreign characters in the top titles which are not there in normal dialogue.

 

[Goral]

Yup, at this point Wesp5 is doing more bad than good. QFT:

So, that reporter dude in Downtown, Milligan. You find him hiding in his closet and you get a couple of dialog options to get rid of him. And guess what, the cutscene hangs up. Don't remember it being broken in vanilla.

Now, I've done a fair bit of googling, and all these shitty bugs I'm constantly coming across, it's all the same, they're all widely known unofficial patch specific bugs. You google the problem, and sure enough on some forum there's Wesp5 coming out of the woodwork and saying "oh, it's nothing, just add this line to that file" or "just use this console command to push thru". Well fuck you Wesp5, you've been patching this game for over a decade and this is the state it is in now? I guess the stories about you fixing the bugs you've introduced yourself are true. This is such a mess, I mean there's not enough dialogs and scripts in the game to keep releasing a new patch version like every couple of months for over 10 years. You just keep on intentionally fucking it up. I've played the game at release and I don't remember fucking vanilla being this broken.

You're an insane individual, Werner Spahl, who keeps on breaking things just so that you can fix them later and get some internet cool points for that.

And more importantly:

I haven't played the game since release and just a week ago decided to give it another go with this seemingly popular patch.

And you know, it's completely fucked up, the game was nowhere this bad plain vanilla. There was only one single game breaking bug in vanilla where you had to use a console command to continue. Otherwise it was completely fine.

Now this dude, Werner Spahl aka Wesp5, he's been "fixing" this game for over 10 years. His patch is already at version 9.7 (wtf). I mean, there is not enough dialogs and scripts to comb over in the span of 10 years. But let's suppose he's working very slow. OK, well, since the patch is 400+ MB in size I suppose tons of shit should've been fixed and the game should be mostly a smooth sailing. Right?

Nope. There's actually more bugs. I constantly come across all kinds of weird issues. Like missing dialog lines, broken cutscenes, shit not spawning where it should be. OK, I'm a learned man, I google this shit. And yeah, you sure come across various threads on various obscure forums where Wesp5 is coming out of the woodwork (or more like a knight in shining armor) and saying things like "oh sorry I must have broken it, add this line to that file to fix it" or "use this console command to push through" and "I'll fix it in version 5.6.1 beta 3, promise". And yeah, some of these threads are from 2010 or earlier. Shit's not been fixed yet.

Now, either this dude is utterly incompetent or he keeps on breaking things just so that he can keep on releasing more patches to support this twisted hobby of his.

All those forums, all those accounts. Where does he find the time to create so many accounts and promote his patch? Or maybe, that's his goal, to bask in the attention. To break something and then tell people how to get around the issue and get all those pats on his back for being such a knowledgeable fan.

If you had 10 years, you could fix everything. At least every single dialog file and every single script in the game. But nah, this patch is an absolute mess of attention whoring.

He should have ended it with version 2 or 3, instead he's constantly messing with the game, breaking things, then fixing them in the next iteration while breaking some other things, then adding some new features in a basic patch, then removing them, then adding them again, etc. etc. It might not be that awful for people who have already played the game dozens of times but first timers will get the inferior experience if you ask me. He even added faggot intro into the game because one faggot asked for it...

That's not to say that Wesp5 hasn't done some great things, because he did but he really should consider making basic patch BASIC.

Some examples:

Hm, you are right. It would be easy to add them back in and to the same for the Russion words. I'll think about it! And don't expect this to be different in the basic patch, minor issues like this are usually not switched between basic and plus...

First thing I noticed: Why did Wesp add a couple of pointless sentences back to Jack's dialog in the tutorial that were obviously meant for an earlier revision where Jack would first talk to you inside the building. Are you stupid, can I expect this kind of rote reanimation of "cut content" to happen a lot in the "basic patch"?

I didn't know the discussion was on here again . Yes, I know these restorations were a little bit weird, but I just couldn't let go of his great lines. And no, there shouldn't be anything similar later, but some things like the improvised Sabbat ending aren't perfect...

Today I replayed the Hotel level and again I noticed some arbitrary changes with the UP...the ghost in vanilla disappears as soon as you see him...

Not exactly. If we are talking about the ghost of the father in the lobby, it originally disappeared after a fixed very short time, regardless of whether you saw him or not. So I didn't saw the ghost down the right side at all when I played and the other one looked like a graphical glitch to me as quickly as it disappeared. I have reduced the delay to only 1 second more that in the original now for the next 9.7 beta...

Is there a full documentation of the changes in Basic and Plus patches?

Yes, you can find it at the end of the patch readme. And no, not every single added line is listed there.

Also, it would be nice to have a third version with bugfixes and restored content but without the liberties you've taken regarding gameplay, skill checks, the library mission etc. Is this something you are willing to consider?

No. Basically most of the restored content includes liberties, because I didn't know what Troika exactly planned to do. Also there is little left in gameplay and skill check changes and I will revert some weapon stats already in the next patch.

I don't exactly get what you are implying by this, but if you think I change stuff only to release a new patch, that isn't true! But sometimes things become possible that weren't before so I change things over and over, that can indeed happen. As an example, let's take the Chang Brothers. Originally none dropped his weapon, which is still so in the basic patch, but annoyed me as this is an immersion breaker for me. So some time ago I managed to change the Blade Brother model myself so he was able to drop his sword. I could do nothing about the Claw Brothers as I know too little about modeling to create his claws as a weapon. Then Lenuska came along and helped me, so I could finally have him drop his weapon too! As this must not happen in the basic patch, I swapped the brother entities themselves and this was were the bug described here sneaked into the patch. It's already fixed, but things like this can happen!

And here is one of many examples where he changed something only because one person asked for it:

I don't want to make Grout's mansion more dangerous. I'm just working on restoring as many weapons as possible to their original stats for the 9.6 final, because some of these changes were made years ago when somebody persuaded me to do something because it would better fit the lore. Like removing aggravated damage! Since then though I think I learned that Bloodlines doesn't much care about the weapon and discipline lore in the first place and at least for basic it should be as close as possible to the released version...

Anyone who doesn't LOL at malk dialogue is a humourless prig.

(though apparently Wesp is entirely to blame for this line, and he put it in the basic patch for some reason)

And the list goes on and on...

 

[Wesp5]

So, that reporter dude in Downtown, Milligan. You find him hiding in his closet and you get a couple of dialog options to get rid of him. And guess what, the cutscene hangs up. Don't remember it being broken in vanilla.

That bug has been fixed in the meantime and it was already in vanilla, but only happened when you left the map or save/loaded before you sent Milligan away...

You're an insane individual, Werner Spahl, who keeps on breaking things just so that you can fix them later and get some internet cool points for that.

Very funny for him to say that. Has he finished his patches in the meantime? And why do you cite him instead of coming up with issues you experienced yourself?

First thing I noticed: Why did Wesp add a couple of pointless sentences back to Jack's dialog in the tutorial that were obviously meant for an earlier revision where Jack would first talk to you inside the building. Are you stupid, can I expect this kind of rote reanimation of "cut content" to happen a lot in the "basic patch"?

Yeah, and now I have the perfect excuse to restore these lines for basic as well ! BTW, the whole tutorial correction above was made in teamwork with somebody else.
There are hundreds of people out there reporting issues or suggesting fixes! And most of them are not purist like some people here. If you are fine with 1.2, just play it!

And here is one of many examples where he changed something only because one person asked for it:

See above, there are lots of changes I made because one person reported it. Should I fix something only if I get hundreds of reports of an error?

(though apparently Wesp is entirely to blame for this line, and he put it in the basic patch for some reason)

In that case there was no Malkavian answer, as in many others, but if you prefer your Malkavian to suddenly become sane all the time, play 1.2!

 

[502]

Who wants a three way cage match to the death between Wesp, Drog and Tessera?

3) there are difficulties to display some foreign characters in the top titles which are not there in normal dialogue.

Yeah, noticed some wrong characters in the captions.

 

[jackofshadows]

That's not to say that Wesp5 hasn't done some great things, because he did but he really should consider making basic patch BASIC.

Since again, game's perfectly playable with the official 1.2 patch there's almost no point in doing that. And it is quite clear wasn't his/their actual goal all this time. AFAIK, basic/plus branches appeared only thanks to people's requests, not by initial design. So yeah, let players have one more version of the game, why not? Slightly "restored" (it's really amusing to read this word relating to the fan's game patches, can't help it) variant, close to the original but with some bug fixes and unnesessary changes as a bonus.

Judging by some impressions like SausageInYourFace's, it's acceptable experience for the new players. Although I prefer to recommend steam version anyway and when I see how people advertise to play with basic (or better yet, plus) patch instead "to feel how the game should/could have been made" it make me wince every time. Who the fuck knows how it could have been made under the different circumstances.

And while the plus version will continue to remain the dream project, the fan's ultimate proper fixed restored call it how you like version (just please don't lie to the new players) with the concept in mind "if it can be restored, it should be and much more".

 

[JBro]

Does anyone even like the plus version? Just fix the fucking bugs.

 

[ghostdog]

The plus version is just fine for anyone wanting some more variety in his "n"th playthrough. Wesp's constant tinkering simply gives me an excuse to fire up the game one more time.

 

[Roguey]

In that case there was no Malkavian answer, as in many others, but if you prefer your Malkavian to suddenly become sane all the time, play 1.2!

Not every line out of a crazy's person's mouth has to be word salad or some random penguin of doom thing.

 

[Latelistener]

Started playing with 1.2. Strangely, I remember vanilla cutscenes being more janky. Maybe the Steam version has some differences compared to the original CD release or maybe what I remember was from the earlier iterations of the unofficial patch. Also, my PC spec at the time was hardly suitable to play this game. Would love to get my hands on the original CD to compare, but I can't even find anything legit in the usual places.

But in any case, the vanilla "buginess" is definitely exaggerated. The famous Leopold bug was fixed with the official patch 1.2.

 

[S.torch]

Started playing with 1.2. Strangely, I remember vanilla cutscenes being more janky. Maybe the Steam version has some differences compared to the original CD release or maybe what I remember was from the earlier iterations of the unofficial patch. Also, my PC spec at the time was hardly suitable to play this game. Would love to get my hands on the original CD to compare, but I can't even find anything legit in the usual places.

But in any case, the vanilla "buginess" is definitely exaggerated. The famous Leopold bug was fixed with the official patch 1.2.

Then just play your vanilla full of bugs and let people play their patched game with extra content (and the much needed shortcuts).

 

[Nano]

Would love to get my hands on the original CD to compare, but I can't even find anything legit in the usual places.

Plenty of physical Bloodlines copies available on eBay for less than $10, if you're really interested.

 

[Roguey]

(and the much needed shortcuts).

Just noclip if you're gonna cheat.

 

[Nano]

Just noclip if you're gonna cheat.

Cheats like noclip can completely ruin immersion for some people.

 

[HansDampf]

Yeah, this is the most recent big change of the patch and I thought long if this should be in basic or plus. You see, after the intro you leave the theatre by the back entrance and end up in the tutorial location. Later in the downtown hub you can go to the theatre back entrance and the area looks completely different! This was bugging players for years. I remember seing plans on how the hub would needed to be change which is just impossible. Then recently somebody came up with the movement solution. To me this is a bug fix, because these exits should look the same!

This should stay out of basic.

 

[Wesp5]

Yeah, this is the most recent big change of the patch and I thought long if this should be in basic or plus. You see, after the intro you leave the theatre by the back entrance and end up in the tutorial location. Later in the downtown hub you can go to the theatre back entrance and the area looks completely different! This was bugging players for years. I remember seing plans on how the hub would needed to be change which is just impossible. Then recently somebody came up with the movement solution. To me this is a bug fix, because these exits should look the same!

This should stay out of basic.

So it this not one of the most noticeable errors of the game? Where map designers obviously didn't compare their notes?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be possible to make a modular patch in which one could pick and choose which additions he'd like besides basic bugfixing? I would imagine that one could create an installer which you'd download, select your preferences and have your own personalized patch assembled.

 

[Wesp5]

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be possible to make a modular patch in which one could pick and choose which additions he'd like besides basic bugfixing?

I already tried that before, but as so much in this game is connected it made the whole thing much more unstable and it was much harder to resolve new issues too, because I often didn't know what setup people were using.

 

[HansDampf]

Yeah, this is the most recent big change of the patch and I thought long if this should be in basic or plus. You see, after the intro you leave the theatre by the back entrance and end up in the tutorial location. Later in the downtown hub you can go to the theatre back entrance and the area looks completely different! This was bugging players for years. I remember seing plans on how the hub would needed to be change which is just impossible. Then recently somebody came up with the movement solution. To me this is a bug fix, because these exits should look the same!

This should stay out of basic.

So it this not one of the most noticeable errors of the game? Where map designers obviously didn't compare their notes?

By the same logic, you'd also have to fix the Skyline Apartments building because it is bigger on the inside.

 

[Wesp5]

By the same logic, you'd also have to fix the Skyline Apartments building because it is bigger on the inside.

And it has windows on the outside and not on the inside. Yes, I know there are lot of issues like this and if I could I would probably fix them! But then nobody much ever noticed this except for us modders, but the tutorial area/downtown hub difference came up again and again over the years. Even the current solution was very much done by someone else and I only included it...

 

[HansDampf]

But it's not a bug.

 

[Wesp5]

But it's not a bug.

What is it then?

 

[Roguey]

It's an "only autists will notice and care about this" thing.