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Religion in CRPGs

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
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stalin_brando said:
As long as it's done early, isn't abortion about preventing a life, rather than ending one? Isn't abstinence therefore equally morally reprehensible, in that it also stops potential life from coming into existence?

Well that doesn't much matter. Whether the fetus is alive or not at a certain point of pregnancy is pretty moot, because if you leave it alone it will be (barring miscarriage, but that's out of everyone's hands).
 

Atrokkus

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Abortion is a virtue, not a crime. I've seen SO many living reason why abortion is a must, oh yes I did. SO many orphans, uinwanted children that are lucky if they end up in some kid shelter, because most often than not they end up in slums and train stations where they lead either bum's or criminal lives, or both. Now that's a crime, that's a crime on the hands of parents who did not want a child but gave birth to it, they irresponsibly created a new creature, as if it's as easy and carefree as, i dunno, making a sandwich or something. Why, prey tell, must a child suffer because of his parent's carelessness and irresponsibility? He's not born yet, he has no conciousness, so to him it wouldn't make a difference whether he dies or lives, but it would matter when he lives 3-4 more years, when he realizes what kind of hell he's been put into. He'll become a filth like the ones who he ends up living with. The angry, enraged, angsty kids who are considered the fiercest criminals - the teens on the street. And it wouldn't matter then that it wasn't his choice to be there, to "like" the life he leads, because it is a matter of fact, you can't change it.

And fuck all those religious fanatics. The church authorities doesn't care what happens to the kids after they are born, they just want to appeal to the ignorant, religiously-brainwashed crowd that does not realize *what* this all means, why it is not wise to let the babies breed just because some whore didn't notice her client's naked cock, because she was too excited and the client's satisfaction is above all, and the money's good. She's got a child? Tough luck, well, let's dump the baby into the garbage container, that's where he belongs -- and oh yes that happened *many* times.
 

kingcomrade

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As we learned from the Dixie Chicks, exercising your freedom of speech is patriotic. So, therefore, must be exercising your freedom of choice! Abortion is patriotic! What better way to celebrate the 4th of July?!

There's always a chance that a baby will grow up and invent the longer lasting light bulb. Old people, on the other hand? They drive slow. Today I went to the store to buy some Saltines and cookies, and I sat in the express line while some old guys paid for like 2 dollars worth of stuff with a check. You're fucking kidding me? ABORT THEM PLEASE
 

Section8

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I hardly know where to begin. First, where on God's green earth did we ever get the idea that we should decide whether a human being lives or dies on the basis of whether someone else in society considers the human being WANTED? Wanted is an extremely subjective concept that has nothing to do with whether a person should live or die. Nothing! As you point out, there are many out of the womb children that are unwanted. But nobody (yet) is demanding that it would be more merciful to kill them since they are "unwanted." The day is probably coming, though.

The fact of whether or not the (potential) child is wanted is not the direct reason for the choice. The judgment is made on the basis that it is deemed immoral to bring a child into the world, given the likelihood that that child is going to lead a life of significant suffering and trauma. Is it fair to make the assumption that all conceptions occur when both parties are in a reasonable state of mind to make such a drastic decision? I don't think it is. Is it fair to deny a more informed and rational choice soon after?

Given the number of unfit parents in the world, I think it's a bit strange to force a potential parent to bear a child they willingly claim they're unfit to raise. In fact, wouldn't you think that someone willing to "murder" their own child is likely to be a poor parent, and probably doesn't deserve a child, if we take your standpoint on conception as being the "point of no return"?

That's another point of discussion, where should the line be drawn? Does the fact that I have squandered literally billions of potential humans make me immoral? Should my crusty grey gym sock be viewed in the same light as a mass grave? Is contraception immoral? Are "morning after" contraceptive measures immoral? Is "murdering" a tiny mass of reproductive cells that lack sentience or consciousness any more or less moral than "murdering" abnormal cell growths?

Funnily enough, the backward views various political and religious powers hold are significant factor in unwanted pregnancy. Preaching abstinence instead of sex education doesn't help anyone. It's better to take the logical stance that hormonally charged teens are going to fuck, and it's best to educate them to do so safely, and "morally".* If we actually taught our youth how to act on their sexual impulses in a responsible manner, then unwanted pregnancy rates would reduce significantly, and the abortion argument would be a trivial thing.

Second, what rock have you been hiding under? There are thousands of crisis pregnancy centers set up that specifically give loving support to mothers who choose to let their babies live, including providing housing, medical care, adoptive services, etc. We care about the women involved as much as we the babies--even though it is much easier to wrongly stereotype pro-life people as raving maniacs. Of course there have been a few insane pro-life people. That does not invalidate the work of saving babies from being murdered. Pro-life people also actually care for orphans too. Imagine that.

Okay, I'll admit it's hardly fair of me to seize only upon the stereotypes, but my statement still stands. If the efforts and resources that went toward the rabid opposition of "baby murdering" were instead spent on positive initiatives to care for the children of unfit parents, then once again, abortion would be less of an issue. If a potential parent had the assurances that their child would receive the care and attention it deserved, that defeats one of the "strongest" pro-choice stances.

Surely you'd agree that taking steps to make abortion a non-issue is a more positive tack than bluntly trying to abolish it according to a narrow opinion.

* Unrelated fact, but during Reagan's administration, the US ceased all funding to global aid agencies offering birth control (primarily to Africa). Now, I'm no expert, but last I heard, protected sex was one of the more effective tools mankind has at its disposal to mitigate such things as over-population and the spread of infectious diseases like HIV/AIDS.

** And really, abortion arguments are about the single most pointless arguments to have, due to the divisive stances of arguments. It's like trying to argue which is the one true god. Nobody wins. So there's no need to reply unless you feel like venting. I'm going to bow out having expressed my own views.
 

ichpokhudezh

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ExMonk said:
the moment a woman decides to have sex and gets pregnant there are two bodies involved, and the mother's rights DO NOT trump the rights of the unborn child.
Excuse me, is it still ok for me to use condoms?
 

Sarvis

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ExMonk said:
I hardly know where to begin. First, where on God's green earth did we ever get the idea that we should decide whether a human being lives or dies on the basis of whether someone else in society considers the human being WANTED?


It's pretty much what our society is based on. How many people in Iraq died because we decided they needed freedom? How many people die in sweatshops because you want cheap clothes, with the excuse of "this job was better than the alternatives" being scattered over their ashes? How many people were killed in the name of God because they would not renounce their old faith?
 

Ausir

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yipsl said:
Ausir said:
In the Witcher books (dunno about the game yet), clerics don't have any fancy kind of magic - most of them don't use any magic at all, and those who do are really nothing more than wizards who claim that their powers come from some deity.

I'd like to see them translated into English. Perhaps if the game does well enough. Do the novels deal with racism like the game? Humans are supposed to have prejudice against elves and dwarves. Are religions portrayed as good, bad or as depending on the behavior of the believers?

Depending on the behavior of the believers, just like in real life. Just like in our world, the deities don't manifest themselves so we don't know whether they exist or not. Some clerics use magic but it's no different than wizardry, regardless of what they claim. And yeah, there is a lot of racism towards dwarves, elves and the likes (elves are put in reservations, dwarves in ghettoes, pogroms, etc.). It's quite a gritty world, although not without humor. And the books are being translated into English, they'll be published in the UK by Gollancz soon.
 

Balor

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Hmm, ok, abortion is a murder.
Then condoms are concentration death camps, and oral sex is cannibalism.
Repaint, sinners, and don’t thin again!
 

kingcomrade

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Well, there's no baby when you are using a condom or having oral sex, so that's not the most accurate metaphor ever.

Wasn't this thread about something else?

I think they should put Islam in every game. Because if they don't, a Muslim might play the game and feel disincluded and offended and that means the developers are racist. The women in the games aren't wearing burkas!! And in Fallout, "PIG RATS?!"
http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Pig ... 56771.html
Ban Piglet!
Also, nativity scenes should be banned from games. And Christmas trees. You have no idea, as a non-Christian, how offended I was when I played WoW last Christmas and there were effects from a KKKRISTIAN holiday all about. It made me want to contact the ACLU and hack someone's head off.
also: riot and loot, because there's almost no black people. They should institute a system where a certain quota of players have to make a black character.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,172387,00.html
Can you see the logic in this?
Neo-Nazi: Black people suck, they're all violent and rowdy
Black person: That's racist! Let's go riot and loot to protest our being stereotyped as violent and rowdy!
Way to play right into their hands, geniuses. You think this isn't what they wanted to happen?
edit: http://blamebush.typepad.com/blamebush/ ... een_m.html
this is funny! lolz
When the Olympia chapter of the American Anti-Midget League staged a march to protest the "pint-sized circus freaks" turning our college into a "clown school", hundreds of midget students responded by riding unicycles, juggling brightly colored balls, and shooting themselves out of cannons...For as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. said as he wheeled a cartful of DVD players out of a Birmingham Wal-Mart, "We will leave no metaphorical car unturned in our righteous crusade against the intolerant storefront windows of social injustice."
 

ecliptic

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As bland as the gamplay in a lot of console RPGs are, a fairly decent number deal with religion and the corruptions of organized faith.
 

TheGreatGodPan

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ecliptic said:
As bland as the gamplay in a lot of console RPGs are, a fairly decent number deal with religion and the corruptions of organized faith.
Haha, everyone knows they've never heard of religion in Japan, silly!
 

MINIGUNWIELDER

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Sep 9, 2005
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Sarvis said:
ExMonk said:
I hardly know where to begin. First, where on God's green earth did we ever get the idea that we should decide whether a human being lives or dies on the basis of whether someone else in society considers the human being WANTED?


It's pretty much what our society is based on. How many people in Iraq died because we decided they needed freedom? How many people die in sweatshops because you want cheap clothes, with the excuse of "this job was better than the alternatives" being scattered over their ashes? How many people were killed in the name of God because they would not renounce their old faith?
look at the starvin marvin episode of south park
 

yipsl

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Ausir said:
yipsl said:
Ausir said:
In the Witcher books (dunno about the game yet), clerics don't have any fancy kind of magic - most of them don't use any magic at all, and those who do are really nothing more than wizards who claim that their powers come from some deity.

I'd like to see them translated into English. Perhaps if the game does well enough. Do the novels deal with racism like the game? Humans are supposed to have prejudice against elves and dwarves. Are religions portrayed as good, bad or as depending on the behavior of the believers?

Depending on the behavior of the believers, just like in real life. Just like in our world, the deities don't manifest themselves so we don't know whether they exist or not. Some clerics use magic but it's no different than wizardry, regardless of what they claim. And yeah, there is a lot of racism towards dwarves, elves and the likes (elves are put in reservations, dwarves in ghettoes, pogroms, etc.). It's quite a gritty world, although not without humor. And the books are being translated into English, they'll be published in the UK by Gollancz soon.

I'm looking forward to the Golllancz edition. What religion do the dwarves and elves have? How many books are in the series?
 

Ausir

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There are 7 books in the series - two short story collections and 5 novels. Don't remember much about elven or dwarven religion, as religion isn't really that important in the books, as there are no "real" gods there and none of the main characters is a dwarf or an elf (although there are some very good supporting characters).
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Section8 said:
* Unrelated fact, but during Reagan's administration, the US ceased all funding to global aid agencies offering birth control (primarily to Africa). Now, I'm no expert, but last I heard, protected sex was one of the more effective tools mankind has at its disposal to mitigate such things as over-population and the spread of infectious diseases like HIV/AIDS.

More to the point, there's heaps of African tribal leaders and warlords telling their people that you don't get AIDS from sex, so condoms just get in the way of the fun.

People want to blame catholics about their stance on condoms and such, but how much AIDS spreading would there be in Africa if they stuck with the catholic teachings of "Don't fuck until you're married and only fuck your wife."? There would be ZERO spreading.
 

Sarvis

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Saint_Proverbius said:
Section8 said:
* Unrelated fact, but during Reagan's administration, the US ceased all funding to global aid agencies offering birth control (primarily to Africa). Now, I'm no expert, but last I heard, protected sex was one of the more effective tools mankind has at its disposal to mitigate such things as over-population and the spread of infectious diseases like HIV/AIDS.

More to the point, there's heaps of African tribal leaders and warlords telling their people that you don't get AIDS from sex, so condoms just get in the way of the fun.

People want to blame catholics about their stance on condoms and such, but how much AIDS spreading would there be in Africa if they stuck with the catholic teachings of "Don't fuck until you're married and only fuck your wife."? There would be ZERO spreading.

That's a huge fucking "if" considering Catholic priests themselves can't even keep their dicks out of little boys.
 

Section8

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More to the point, there's heaps of African tribal leaders and warlords telling their people that you don't get AIDS from sex, so condoms just get in the way of the fun.

Yeah, I'm not trying to pin the blame solely on the US, I was just shocked to hear about that. Ideology shouldn't intrude upon humanitarian aid; it should be fair and unbiased, humans helping humans, because we're one and the same, and all that happy nonsense.

People want to blame catholics about their stance on condoms and such, but how much AIDS spreading would there be in Africa if they stuck with the catholic teachings of "Don't fuck until you're married and only fuck your wife."? There would be ZERO spreading.

Yeah, but as a counter argument to that archaic, but not entirely misplaced doctrine. Sexuals urges and desires are strong enough to overpower an intangible fear of an afterlife, and so people want to, and will fuck. Those who abstain on the grounds of their beliefs are usually in for their fair share of psychological trauma.

It's far more pragmatic to take the approach of "people are going to fuck, and they're going to fuck multiple partners, so let's educate and prepare these people to mitigate the negative effects of it.

Besides, the whole point of organised religion (from an altruistic standpoint, ignoring the power ascpects) is to encourage people to live and behave in a way that accounts for a whole society, rather than the individual. People get too caught up in dogma, and so doctrines rarely (if ever) change, despite that fact that society changes at a much higher rate.

In fact society changes about as fast as a Codex thread goes completely off topic. ;)
 

Elwro

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Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Some you guys interested in the omniscience/free will debate might want to read this (it's generally a very good site).

The issue touches many problems that make my head itch, especially considering that I might have to write a historical paper about them if I don't have a result to show until February (I'm finishing my studies).
 

kingcomrade

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GIVE US CONDOMS OR GIVE US DEATH
As research shows, the mere mention of "abstinence" is the leading cause of teen pregnancy.

Another great quote from this site:
Do we ask dogs humping in the front lawn to hold off till marriage? Of course not! So why should we ask it of our own kids?

I'm too ugly to have sex :(

Seriously though, Proverbius is right. AIDS is a completely preventable disease. AIDS is a choice.
Remember that chick a few months back who won the Nobel Peace Prize for saying that the US Military developed AIDS as a weapon to wipe out blacks and gays?
That's kinda like saying white people invented Ebonics to make blacks look like retards.

Section 8, I'm not exactly a Puritan, but I still think people should be a bit more discerning. It's not hard to not have sex with someone. It's also not hard to not cheat on your spouse.
If you go out and fuck random people and come home with AIDS, you're going to blame Christians for not giving you free condoms?
 

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