Religion in CRPGs

[Surlent]

I loved the conversation in BG2 where on religion square people talked on the street if the gods existed and new prohpets of the unseeing eye tryied to sway people to their cult. And how unseeing eye ended up being a beholder in sewers.
Often religion is just easy scapegoat to explain where healers get their powers instead of going indepths to the game world and its lore. Another annoying reasoning is that typical dnd mentality gods are passive and won't act because they are afraid of each other.

 

[Trash]

Anyone read "American gods" or "Anansi boys" from Neil Gaiman? Very good books, with an interesting take on religion and mythology. Could be a lot of fun if game developers pick up on this and do something with it.

 

[ExMonk]

Something many of you are missing is that some world religions in the real world are antithethical to advancing in power and influence. For example, intrinstic to Christianity (and perhaps Buddhism) is the principle of self-denial, suffering, and strength in weakness. Seemingly not the stuff that games are made of . . .

 

[Crnobog]

Not really an rpg, but I very much liked the political approach to religion in Emperor of the Fading Suns. Basically, the head of the Church decided which technologies are considered banned and being of the same denomination as the archbishop (or whatever the guy was called) could gain you some favor with the Church (votes at election, sending inquisition on someones ass, etc.). It was done quite well in Europa 1400 too, where you can become an archbishop yourself and accuse your opponents of heresy, convert citizens, denigrate someone during the mass and do all kinds of other dirty tricks.

As for religious and philosophical themes in games, Alpha Centauri wins hands down.

 

[Twinfalls]

Something many of you are missing is that some world religions in the real world are antithethical to advancing in power and influence. For example, intrinstic to Christianity (and perhaps Buddhism) is the principle of self-denial, suffering, and strength in weakness. Seemingly not the stuff that games are made of . . .

I don't see that 'self-denial', 'suffering' and 'strength in weakness' are in any way about taking power away from a clerical class. They sound more about keeping a populace weak and easily ruled.

BUT

Let's be careful.... this thread can very easily be derailed from religion-in-games into religion, period.

 

[Kraszu]

Something many of you are missing is that some world religions in the real world are antithethical to advancing in power and influence. For example, intrinstic to Christianity (and perhaps Buddhism) is the principle of self-denial, suffering, and strength in weakness. Seemingly not the stuff that games are made of . . .

I don't see that 'self-denial', 'suffering' and 'strength in weakness' are in any way about taking power away from a clerical class. They sound more about keeping a populace weak and easily ruled.

BUT

Let's be careful.... this thread can very easily be derailed from religion-in-games into religion, period.

That'w one of the the reasons why you don't see "realistic" religon in games. The wold be protest, some ppl would take is as an atack at they faith.

 

[Balor]

Balor, get a dictionary. Read the definition for "agnostic". Then read that of "atheist". Then you can start commenting on religion again.

Are you an idiot? I've explained that to you already, and you still don't have a clue.
I remember the definition you game me:
"Atheism is lack of faith god(s)".

Right, but it does not mean that ALL atheists deny their existence outright, you flathead, in terms: "No gods exits, and it's a proven fact, period!"

I don't believe (have not faith) in green men from Mars (or Alpha Centauri, for that matter).
It does not mean that I say that their existence is "impossible, period!".
It just find bringing up that subject (just theoretical contemplations aside) senseless. Not to mention creating a in institute that will glorify them.
"God has not proven not to exist, therefore, he must exist".
How stupid is that?
That's thinking along the lines of those dumbfucks who go to casino to EARN money because, like, you can theoretically win more then you lose there! Even worse.

P.S.
Oh, and agnostics, by themselves, not atheists. Agnostics are people who think that God cannot be comprehended by mortals, EVAR! (Means you'll never know if it exits or not, even if you'll burst yourself open while trying).

Oh well, copypaste from wikipedia:

Agnostic atheism is a fusion atheism or nontheism with agnosticism, the epistemological position that the existence or nonexistence of deities is unknown (weak agnosticism) or unknowable (strong agnosticism). Agnostic atheism is typically contrasted with agnostic theism, the belief that deities exist even though it is impossible to know that deities exist, and with gnostic atheism, the belief that there is enough information to determine that deities do not exist.

And if you think of Atheism ONLY as 'gnostic atheism', you are narrow-minded to the extreme.
And, and I happen to think that religion is dumbing down people, sparkles hate and violence, slowing technical progress, enforcing herd mentality and "slave virtues", so I can be called "anti-theist"...
Yet, while being such an 'extremist' (which is rather well-founded, btw, after you study some history), I don't deny existence of gods outright.
Simply because to prove that something exists, you must come up with ONE conclusive evidence.
Yet, to prove that something DOES NOT exist, you must disprove all possible aspects of it's existence.
And since god(s) have SO many aspects connected with them, and, more often then not, those aspects are out of reach from scientifical analysis (at least, so far), it's plain impossible.

So, gnostic atheists are as stupid as gnostic theists. But it's a small minority.
I can judge all religions based on it's most extremist representatives, like Islamic jihadis. Would it be fair?
Not exactly. (However, religions does have a lot of other more then negative aspects to reject it, though. Aspects that are commonly accepted, unlike religious extremism, therefore much more dangerous).

 

[yipsl]

Religion in games can go far beyond the AD&D cleric motif, though most of the time the treatments are mixed. In the classic Might and Magic series, we see various evil cults that are fleshed out; the temple of Baa in Might and Magic VI for example, but the noncult good religion just exists as temples for healing.

Daggerfall handled religion well, despite the cookie cutter quests. I felt that the Eight Divines were real to the people in the world and that they weren't all in total awe of the organizations worshipping the Aedra. I'd always join the House of Dibella and my favorite comment on entering one was taken from "Spaceballs": This sure ain't Temple Beth Israel!"

Take the Daggerfall description of the House of Dibella by her followers and by others:

"Temple Description by Outsiders

Any temple dedicated to the Goddess of Beauty is called a House of Dibella. The priests and priestesses within are epicureans and orgiasts who aspire for beauty of the form and mind."

Compare the subtle differences between that and the description by members:

"Temple Descripton by Members

At the House of Dibella, we seek truth through beauty and the worship of the embodiment of beauty, the Goddess Dibella. Dibella smiles on those who give generously to our House. She grants charm and grace to donors. In proportion to their generosity, of course. We are always interested in new initiates to the House of Dibella, though only those possessing skills in the promotion of harmony. To be honest, very few qualify."

http://til.gamingsource.net/nine_divines/

Outsiders see only epicureanism and orgies, while insiders see the element of beauty and harmony. The outsider vs. insider descriptions of the benefices, chantries, houses, resolutions and temples in Daggerfall are equally varied. I can imagine what a joinable Nine Divines would be like in Oblivion, but they aren't including it; perhaps for plot reasons but more likely because of polling, ie religions not as popular with the kiddies as hack and slashing or fireball throwing.

Anyways, I"ve always been a religious person who's indifferent to most arguments over religion, including whether G-d exists in the philosophical or literal sense. Many of my favorite stories in the Jewish tradition are one's where people argue with G-d, tell a bat kol (a voice from heaven) that the academy's voted and it's none of heaven's business since the Torah is on earth now and not in heaven, or remark that G-d's messed up just as much as humanity has. Yet, I think that spirituality is innately human and that G-d, in the neo-platonic sense is the ideal to which good is the reality (to paraphrase Iris Murdoch).

What I'd like to see is more religion in games that doesn't use it just as a cult to entrap NPCs and to fight against, or just a means to control the populace, or even to heal the player characters. It should be as complex as real life.

My theory is that there's good and bad religion because there's good and bad in every person, hence the abuse of religion like every other human endeavor. Games usually settle on just the bad religion aspect of cults like the alien invasion spawned temple of Baa or just use it as a way to heal player characters.

One thing that TES does is not limit healing to clerics or temples, restoration is a skill in the mage's guild too, so no one has to play a healer unless they want the challenge of a class that Bethsoft always described as handicapped as far back as TES: Arena. So, the motivation to play a healer or my custom female Breton Courtesan dedicated to Dibella (think acrobat/healer) is pure roleplaying and interest in making a religion quite different from my real world beliefs work in the context of the game.

 

[Twinfalls]

What I'd like to see is more religion in games that doesn't use it just as a cult to entrap NPCs and to fight against, or just a means to control the populace, or even to heal the player characters. It should be as complex as real life.

A possible benefit, if religion in a game is treated more 'realistically' - ie co-opted for a political, clerical system of power and control, might be that when you do have the 'good side' of religion manifest, it has a much greater impact, both emotionally and in gameplay terms.

In human affairs I would say the 'good side' of religion is a people retaining a sense of the 'numinous', an understanding of some greater purpose to existence than material reward. (My personal view is that this is 'real' religion, and all else is Church.)

I wonder if religion in games, in being used so readily for gameplay-mechanics, (join the religious Guild and you get access to healing or Divine Intervention on your behalf) tends to reduce the possibilities, by making the 'Godly' so mundane and prevalent.

Far more interesting is the prospect of joining a Church to find it exists largely to maintain wealth and power. This would have to be the overlying, institutionalised 'religion', not some small, easily villified 'cult', to be effective. You may ascend to find material rewards are gained through oppression.

BUT you also find, along some paths, SOME connection with God, eg you are involved in community rebuilding, public works, or looking after the sick and impoverished. The player is then rewarded with some (mild) Godly manifestation and advantages, and forgoes the material rewards of the other paths within the Church (money, weapons, rank etc). Perhaps a rare path might lead to a more traditionally 'miraculous' Godly event, giving the player advantages through for example a war being resolved.

I think one must have the greater influence of corruption and self-interest there, in order to get a pay-off of the type of scale that anything truly 'Godly' deserves. I'd like to see the 'Godly' side of religion merely hinted at in a game. Then the 'good human' side - love and community - being there, but in a minority. Finally the 'bad' or institutionally human side - the corruption - being highly prevalent.

After all, it wouldn't be a struggle if the pursuit of religion wasn't dogged by its very antithesis being in the name of the same religion. Nor would it be a struggle if you weren't struggling against your own temptation.

Very nice summary of Daggefall religion there, Yipsl btw.

 

[Section8]

Here's a wacky thought. (as opposed to some good discussion of ideas that seems prevalent in this thread, without too many wanderings into actual religious debate)

Imagine a pantheon of say, eight gods, something manageable, each of which hold the player (and the communities they influence) in a certain regard. That regard is a dynamic slider, much like the needs list of a "Sim", although it doesn't need to be visible as such.

Certain acts are favourable to some gods, and certain acts are disliked, the result of which is that it's nearly impossible to keep them all happy, and an unhappy god progressively affects the world negatively, according to their domain. These negative effects alter the dynamic of the gameworld and more importantly, its societies, and therefore require a player solution.

So basically, this is a religion layer for a sandbox, high-level RPG game that serves as a way of creating dynamic situations within the gameworld. As a result you can get the usual plot cliches (plagues, famine, armies of undead, barbarians, etc) developing of their own accord, and the world dynamically creates quests accordingly.

For example, you've pissed off the god of death, and so now there's now a famine, so suddenly merchants start paying high prices for food. Profitable trade routes open, or hunting increases. Hunt too much, and suddenly the god of nature gets pissed, and amps up the forest critters to be hostile, and threatening. Extort to much money, and the god of wealth gets pissed, randomly giving a villager the Midas' touch. And so on.

In a nutshell, each god functions as a negative feedback system to maintain a wobbly see-sawing balance that also requires a certain degree of player input and interpretation. That's how I see sandbox gaming shining, when the gameplay emerges in response to actual events, rather than just spamming random unrelated quests to the player.

 

[bryce777]

Whilst gods being real in games and giving you powers and stuff is cool, I'd like for once to see a game in which religion plays a role more approximating to reality. That is, the in-game religion serves as a means of power and control, for a privileged minority who extract and maintain wealth from the people using fear and indoctrination, and as a distraction from pursuing collective political action.

Thus might serious moral decisons and implications be generated for the player who chooses to seek power from that path, or who is naive about the reality to begin with.

True power comes from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!

 

[bryce777]

It would be nice if the way you gained power was in converting people to the worship of your god.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Epicueranism wasn't actually about orgies and indulgence. It actually had elements of asceticism.

I've never heard the term "agnostic atheism" before that stub. I've never known of an "agnostic theist" either. Have you?

 

[Balor]

Well, so what?
Agnostics that have no faith in gods are atheists by definition.

 

[Sarvis]

Well, so what?
Agnostics that have no faith in gods are atheists by definition.

What if they have faith in tree spirits or something? Agnosticism seems to be primarily about denying religion, while atheism is primarily about denying any kind of spirituality.

So if you don't believe in religion or gods, but believe in tree spirits or yin-yang then could you really be considered atheistic?

 

[Kraszu]

Balor it is mostly for you, ther is good definition of Agnostic and Atheist:

http://skepdic.com/atheism.html

 

[Balor]

Oh well, let's conclude:
Lines between atheist and agnostic are blurred, there are different 'subtypes' of each one, so we both can be true in a way.
However, notice the:

The latter is sometimes accused by theists of having faith in the non-existence of God, but the accusation is absurd and the expression meaningless. The agnostic atheist simply finds no compelling reason to believe in God.

So, agnostic atheist after all.
Anyway, 'Life's a complex thingy' .

 

[Kraszu]

"God has not proven not to exist, therefore, he must exist".
How stupid is that?
That's thinking along the lines of those dumbfucks who go to casino to EARN money because, like, you can theoretically win more then you lose there! Even worse.

Understood this way, an agnostic could also be a theist or an atheist. The former is called a fideist, one who believes in God purely on faith.

I don't agree whit that (your opinion), if somebady is plang in casino he is losing money, if somebady is beliving in God becose he like the concept and life is easier for him that way, thoroug he cnow he can't prove it i would not call him dimbfuck. He "must" exist for ppl that need him.

btw. I am Agnostic Atheist.

 

[Greatatlantic]

I get the feeling most proclaimed agnostics would probably admit the were either theists or atheists if you questioned them hard enough. I remember reading about one philosopher who claimed he was an agnostic, since he realized there was a chance God did exist, albeit a very, very small chance. I'd just call him an atheist and be done with it.

 

[Kraszu]

Thats why i don'r really care if somebady call me atheist. Through if i say i am an atheist it is less precisided, i can be gnostic atheist, thats all.

 

[kingcomrade]

I remembering that some ancient civilization worshipped their woman gods by having sex with the priestesses. I want that religion, along with all the required...you know, artwork, and stuff.

By the way, that famous guy said, "I say we're both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do." None of you (I'm assuming none of you are Muslims) really fear a Muslim hell, do you?

 

[Sarvis]

I remembering that some ancient civilization worshipped their woman gods by having sex with the priestesses. I want that religion, along with all the required...you know, artwork, and stuff.

What society is this and how do I join?

 

[kingcomrade]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite

In Corinth, intercourse with her priestesses was considered a method of worshipping Aphrodite.

 

[Drakron]

I get the feeling most proclaimed agnostics would probably admit the were either theists or atheists if you questioned them hard enough. I remember reading about one philosopher who claimed he was an agnostic, since he realized there was a chance God did exist, albeit a very, very small chance. I'd just call him an atheist and be done with it.

No, the diference of a agnostic and atheist is that a agnostic doed belive there is a higher power.

In fact I have the feeling most proclaimed atheists would admit they are agnostic.

 

[Balor]

Ok, then how would you describe an atheist, then?
Again, it comes to 'faith that Gods do not exist'?
That, while less stupid then claiming that they exist - is stupid nonetheless, cause you cannot prove it too.