Arkane PREY - Arkane's immersive coffee cup transformation sim - now with Mooncrash roguelike mode DLC

[Ash]

Also the fact he regrets there is no final boss fight (would be retarded if there was).

And why's that, because you think boss fights in general are retarded or because it wouldn't make sense with respect to the plot?

 

[Siel]

And why's that?

Because boss fights are retarted? Or maybe you think fighting Shodan in SS2 wasn't actually garbage?

 

[Ash]

Are you sure you're not the one that's retarded? You can't see any scenario where a end game boss fight is beneficial, fitting, and just makes perfect sense? You haven't taken the time to ponder why 90% of games have one? No. Boss fights are just "retarded". The concept as a whole, and in any context. The plot and gameplay as a whole is driving you towards defeating the bad guy, but actually beating him him/her/it is retarded.

I think you're invested in the wrong medium.

 

[Siel]

Boss fights in general tend to remind me I'm just playing a video game. They are the epitome of "you don't have any choice" and in modern games always become QTE fests.
Even if they can be decently handled, they do not fit with the concept of immersion. I don't mind them in my chink games tho.

 

[Ash]

1. The point of the plot is typically to kill the bad guy and/or survive, which you have no choice in either. You have to accept that premise. Each time the plot drives you toward that goal and you have to accept it.
2. Sometimes in life you don't have any choice. It can be kill or be killed.
3. Immersion <= gameplay. Even "Immersive Sims" recognized this. Like I said, wrong medium.
4. Boss fights can be executed to offer choice in how to defeat them.
5. It's a satisfying conclusion to the gameplay. The final challenge and what you've been strategizing for, and what the plot has been building you up to do.

Am I having the same discussion simultaneously with you elsewhere? Or are there more of your kind? Misguided ex-TTLG'ers that label all things gamey as the devil despite Immersive Sims being filled with gamey concepts, just usually well disguised.

 

[Dev_Anj]

While I admire a good boss fight like anyone else (why, just a few days ago I was sperging out over how good a boss fight was, ask Jarl ), I must admit many video games simply don't do them well. More often than not they have little to no relation with the skills you built up while getting through the rest of the level, and are just spectacle fights which are either rigidly patterned or have unfair moves. Boss fights only make sense if they actually bother to test the skills you built up and fit the climax the game was building up to.

 

[tormund]

Siel

Don't bother, Ash has this habit to lash out at anyone who tries to be friendly with him or merely agrees with him. Why it is so, I have no idea, as I am neither a psychologist nor do I know anything about his personal history.

 

[Ash]

I'm so mean to the degenerates of General Gaming Discussion.

Just the other day you tormund posted some shit on my wall out of the blue "ha ha you got owned in x thread". Clearly you were looking for a fight, but I just ignored it.

Stay on topic. I legitimately asked if Seil was retarded, that's it. You'll see the same shit all over the codex, usually at lot worse.

 

[KILLER BEAR]

Boss fights do not fit with the concept of immersion

Too much HP?

 

[Dev_Anj]

Clearly you were looking for a fight, but I just ignored it.

Says the shitposter who doesn't hesitate to insult the opposition at any given opportunity. Or must I remind you of this?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...grade-from-deus-ex-system-shock-2-etc.112546/

 

[Ash]

Too much HP?

He's looking at it wrong. Boss fights can fit the concept of immersion just fine if the execution is on point. It's his perspective and biases that doesn't let it fit. Unless he truly believes a guy has never been locked in a room with another guy and forced to fight to the death, in which case then, yes, definitely retarded.

As for HP, well just look a Shock 2. A virtual-mechanical entity doesn't follow the rules of organic life forms. Arx? Akbaa is meant to be a demi-god, hence high HP. Simons etc from Deus Ex? Augmented cyborgs with sub-dermal ballistic protection and the like.

The fact that he expects it as it is so common in games, especially gamey games, breaks his immersion by default. But that only makes it incompatible to him. To somebody else that has never even played a game before it can be very immersive, potentially.

 

[Alienman]

 

[Siel]

The new Hardward Labs footage was interesting but now that even the oxygen system was removed I really wished there was a 'hardcore' mode on release.

 

[Siel]

New footage at around 20'

 

[MuscleSpark]

The new Hardward Labs footage was interesting but now that even the oxygen system was removed I really wished there was a 'hardcore' mode on release.

What kind of person thinks weapon degradation and oxygen systems are "too hardcore" for an immersive sim anyways?
Was it someone at Bethesda or Arkane themselves? Why not have it as an optional difficulty option? Are they lying because they just couldn't get it to work properly?
Why can't we have nice things?

 

[sullynathan]

Because boss fights are retarted

They're not, your comments are

 

[LESS T_T]

The new Hardward Labs footage was interesting but now that even the oxygen system was removed I really wished there was a 'hardcore' mode on release.

Oh, tfw the new Zelda game seems much more hardcore and to has more simulations than "an immersive sim".

 

[ciox]

Not just that the oxygen is gone but space airlocks have to be opened from the inside now first, so that you only progress "the right way", this game's possibility space is contracting at a fucking ridiculous rate.
There's a tiny chance it's only for this demo, since these testers are the most normie yet, but I'm starting to doubt it.
Better video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgSuOlKjo64

 

[MuscleSpark]

Interesting podcasinterview(?) about Immersive Sims with Warren Spector (Otherside Entertainment), Harvey Smith and Ricardo Bare (Arkane Studios), Tom Francis (Suspicious Developments) and Steve Gaynor (Fullbright):
http://www.pcgamer.com/the-designer...-stories-about-making-pcs-most-complex-games/

Direct mp3 link: http://dl.pcgamer.com/PCG_Show_79_mar10_2017_Immersive_Sim_Roundtable.mp3

 

[Ash]

The new Hardward Labs footage was interesting but now that even the oxygen system was removed I really wished there was a 'hardcore' mode on release.

Oh, tfw the new Zelda game seems much more hardcore and to has more simulations than "an immersive sim".

But Dish was a brainless blink-choke simulator which saw them their first major financial success and numerous awards, so why would anyone expect any different now? Half of you are acting surprised that this doesn't appear any different.

Smith's mantra rings true in unexpected ways today: "less is more". Less quality and engaging content is more success.

 

[Latelistener]

Not just that the oxygen is gone but space airlocks have to be opened from the inside now first, so that you only progress "the right way", this game's possibility space is contracting at a fucking ridiculous rate.

 

[RoSoDude]

There's a legitimate discussion to be had about how much level progression should be gated to ensure the story/gameplay flows in a certain manner -- in both System Shock games you go through open-ended but self-contained environments one at a time until you can eventually access the whole station.

The problem comes in the fact that they could have gated you through upgrades -- if you get a better thruster or oxygen tank you could reach some areas earlier. Hell, even if these upgrades had to be found in certain areas, effectively gating your progression, it'd be a more believable reason for why you have to visit areas in sequence. Think Super Metroid, with exploration gated by your upgrades (excluding sequence breaks), vs Metroid Fusion where cutscenes and contrived locked doors keep you caged. There were actually some interesting environmental changes and staged events that were able to result from Fusion's hyper-linear design (for Metroid), but from a player perspective it's not very organic and can be downright frustrating.

Either way, I'm still pissed about the dropping of hardcore features because casual players can't handle them. We're witnessing the dumbing down of the game (and immersive sim genre, if you think it still exists) in real time. Managing weapon durability, location-based damage, and trauma can be toned down on lower difficulties. There's really no excuse for dropping gameplay depth here.

 

[Ash]

^It's been dumbed down and contributing to the decline since Invisible War back in 2003. All subsequent ones have been mediocre (Bioshock) to barely passable as something worth playing (Dish). What's worse, simplified I can handle. I like plenty simple games. But not only are they simple, they're also just shit. Nobody says Doom (1993) is a bad game. Thousands still play it to this day, as do I. I don't intend to ever touch Bioshock or Dish again, though. They're utterly bland and boring.

 

[Ivan]

Something that's "utterly bland and boring" ought not be worth playing. Dishonored gives you the tools to create your fun though. In a way it's a bit like a hack-and-slash, like DMC, wherein enemies are there mostly for you to toy with. I feel ya if you were hungry for a more disciplined experience, a la Thief. The last two stealth games that kept me on a tight leash are Mark of the Ninja and Invisible Inc (both by Klei).

 

[Durandal]

Something that's "utterly bland and boring" ought not be worth playing. Dishonored gives you the tools to create your fun though. In a way it's a bit like a hack-and-slash, like DMC, wherein enemies are there mostly for you to toy with. I feel ya if you were hungry for a more disciplined experience, a la Thief. The last two stealth games that kept me on a tight leash are Mark of the Ninja and Invisible Inc (both by Klei).

The thing is that I believe that encouraging improvisation and using all tools at your disposal should naturally arise from difficulty rather than self-enforced challenges. For example, enemies in Dark Messiah take a lot of hits during melee combat which puts you at risk of getting hit yourself, so instead you're trying to dispatch them using other means, like through objects found in the environment or through magic fuckery. But if you just want to stab some dudes, you can always spec into a warrior character to make hacking and slashing things easier.

OTOH, Dishonored pretty much allows you to go and kill things straightforward enough with pistols and swords because your proficiency with pistols and swords is already at master-level from the very beginning while most enemies are easy to deal with, and thus you don't have much reason to consider the other bazillion possible approaches (unless you're doing a non-lethal run) because the straightforward approach works 90% of the time. Like how stealth games encourage you to play stealthy, immersive sims should encourage you to use what you have creatively rather than simply letting you go guns blazing from the start without having specced your character to be a badass killer.