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Pre-release Pillars of Eternity quotes (or: Josh Sawyer writing checks Obsidian can't cash)

Sensuki

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Lead design was Josh's responsibility. If PoE had terrible level designers running amok, shame on who hired, assigned and approved their work.

The lead level designer was Bobby Null, who Josh claims is good at playing games. I assume they hire the best candidates who apply, and if no one great who can also work well with others applies, well.

That's not really how it works. I looked at pretty much everyone they picked up's resumes and they picked up people who they think will be good/fast at implementing content (very familiar with Unity/has made a game), and likely also people that they get along with/fits the company culture. If someone even makes it to an interview stage, you won't really get a chance to assess whether they work well with anyone it will be about whether the people that work with you want to work with this person, not really the other way around.

I highly doubt that anyone they picked up as an area designer played an Infinity Engine game before, or critically thinks about encounter design from a difficulty/challenge standpoint. Obsidian teach them about the fluff side though which is evident in the audio commentaries.

Double Fine only hire indie hipsters, if someone who doesn't fit that profile applies, then they're not gonna get the job.
 

LizardWizard

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The Stronghold flat out felt unfinished. Didn't Josh have a SA quote that went something like, ' we could have done more with it but meh, so many people hate the stronghold mechanic anyway'. Sounds like it was Josh that pulled the resources on that front and he also axed most of Tim's early crafting design as well.
 

AwesomeButton

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I see a ton of things we could improve about the game/systems, but it's a lot of fun as-is. I'm about 65 hours in on a Hard play through. I'm not doing a complete run but I've done a good amount of the side content. The crit path stuff eventually becomes relatively easy when you're over-leveled and over-geared, but that's pretty much what we expected.
:philosoraptor:

Yes, welcome to genre of "nostalgia-driven, old-school-like popamole". And there are even people thankful to Obsidian. (I still have hopes they could eventually rebalance the game, and they've made attempts to do it, reducing XP gain)
0wCE8td.jpg

Just make the player arriving on the village during a hanging with the "I'm lord Raedrics helpful tourist guide." hanging someone then have him telling the villagers to tell him of anyone suspicious of having hollowborn children as the birth was close bonus points to have Éder watching his farm hand being hanged and the "I'm lord Raedrics helpful tourist guide."being smug and threatening Éder, the traitor Eothosian, that he would be the next if the kid was Hollowborn.
I was imagining the player could catch that Urgeat character in the middle of him addressing the villagers, hear only what would make to have been said, and then piece together what's going on in Gilded Vale through conversations with villagers, at the inn, etc. I don't know what they thought - "the players are too stupid and they'll miss a part of the main plot and lore" or "we're just too much out of time to make all those conversations work, so let's just do an infodump NPC, and job's done". Either way that doesn't at all resemble dedication and love. This self-conditioning that's going on about the game is pathetic.
 

AwesomeButton

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As far ar lore dumps are concerned, I think you guys are being too harsh. I've played PST, VTMB and NWN2 MOB not so long ago for the first time, and there was much more such stuff +M
Not denying it at all, I've mentioned a couple of times that the IE games get a pass on many criticisms we seem to have for PoE. But there's Josh's quote for you, and there is the very opposite done in the game. That's what's shitty.
 

FeelTheRads

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And this is just plain retarded. In other words why don't you want to play a shitty game? Don't you enjoy games?????

There are a lot of games out there where combat doesn't result in an immediate reward of loot or experience. People play them anyway because they enjoy doing so.

So clever.
Except he's saying no matter what the design of the game is you should enjoy it because it's a game.

And if he wanted to make it enjoyable then he should've made it good and there shouldn't have been forced and trash combat at all. Then we could talk about playing it to enjoy it not because you're forced to. Of course, he always talks and talks and talks but does nothing, or worse he breaks what already works.
 

roshan

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I'm not sure if Banner Saga is your best point of comparison here. I'd say that both PoE and Banner Saga suffer from a similar problem, in that both are set in interesting, well-developed worlds with some intriguing twists in their lore, but at the same time both narratives suffer from serious pacing problems.

Without getting too far into spoiler territory, Banner Saga in particular sets up a number of important plot points that are never resolved, as well as introducing a significant villain whose role is neither fully addressed nor explained. A common complaint among people who finished the game was that the ending seemed to come out of nowhere, with a number of major plot threads still left dangling. Granted it's planned as the first in a series, but a narrative which results in such common surprise among players can be fairly blamed on serious pacing issues.

I didn't notice any pacing issues in Banner Saga - in fact one thing it does really well was the consistency of pace. You are constantly pursued, on the run, until towards the end when you find you are being slowly cornered, then you end up with nowhere to go, and must make a last stand.

It really makes no sense to expect closure on plot points in a game that was announced as a three parter. What made sense was to expect closure to the first arc, which was done quite satisfactorily. The other plot aspects, the disappearance of the gods, the serpent, the stopping of the sun, the darkness driving the dredge south, were actually quite obviously going to be left for the sequels to answer - realistically only someone with a very low level of common sense would have actually been disappointed at the lack of answers to those.

Banner Saga also suffered from a bit clunky, weak characterization. None of it is outright bad, but after finishing the game a couple months ago I struggle to describe in any detail important plot players, what their characters were like, what motivated and what troubled them. I can already tell that in a few months time Pallegina is going to fade into nothingness and Kana I'll vaguely recall as the loud bard guy, but Durance, Grieving Mother and to a lesser extent Eder are probably going to stick. They were interesting, and that's to PoE's credit.

I actually thought that considering you are given about as many NPCs as BG1, they're fairly well fleshed out and memorable. You have Rook who is trying to save his people, Ludin the arrogant prince, Onef the traitorous pragmatist from Frostvellr, Ubin the scribe, Yrsa the witch, the drunkard Sigbjorn. They're quite interesting, and several play key roles in the plot or party. It's not really a fair comparison to POE's much more limited character pool. Pillars of Eternity has only one more character than Planescape Torment, it really should have been able to hit that level of depth. The fact that by widespread consensus, POE only managed to make three out of 8 characters relevant or memorable really just illustrates what a failure the game was.

I really brought up Banner Saga to illustrate how much more thought went into the setting and overall lore, but really, considering that those characters basically play the role of chess pieces, many of them were developed in much more significant ways than they needed to be. Others like Hogun and Mogun of course are just there to kick ass and shred enemies to bits (apparently they are really impulsive, and there are several scenarios in which they can abandon your party or get killed, but I didn't experience that in my playthrough).

My point isn't to harp on Banner Saga - I agree with you that it's a great game made with serious heart, and apart from some stern reservations over the final boss fight I'd heartily recommend it to just about anybody - but rather to point out that both games require the player to dig a little bit to get what's good about them. PoE buries its virtues so far beneath clunky exposition and questionable design that I can't really begrudge anyone for not wanting to unearth them, but I don't think it's quite fair to hold Banner Saga up as a model of doing right what PoE does wrong.

If a person is put off by Banner Saga's exposition I can't really blame them, since it's the job of the game to engage you. Pillars suffers from the same problem, probably to a much greater degree. At the same time, though, it seems myopic to me to pretend that games like Banner Saga and Xulima are great games in spite of their flaws, and then pretend that Pillars is without meaningful redeeming features of its own.

(very briefly, in case someone is thinking to ask what I think those meaningful redeeming features are - some memorable, well-developed characters, some well developed areas with the castle assault in particular standing out, enough combat options to keep me at least entertained through a single playthrough, some intriguing concepts unfolding in the core narrative ... of course a lot of these are offset by plenty of criticisms that I think are very much on point, but at the end of the day all I can tell you is that I'm fond of messy ambition ...just wish it didn't have to be so suffocatingly grim)

Unfortunately those supposedly redeeming features are really like shriveled trees in the middle of a desert. The game just has too much bad and mediocre.
 
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Josh still had the final word on everything design-wise, and he is the P&P veteran and harsh critic of other RPGs who thought this mess was good enough.

Yep, if you blame Bobby Null for fucking the dog when it comes to managing the level designers, then you also have to blame Josh for not catching it and telling Bobby to get his shit in order. If he can't manage his middle managers, maybe he shouldn't be the lead designer.
 

Atchodas

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PoE wasnt made for people with taste's or for people who has general understanding of CRPG's it was made to get good sales on steam , so casual scrubs could have fun with their most retarded characters , that is all there is to PoE , funny thing is i notice noone talks about modding PoE to make it better , cuz its obvious not even mods can salvage this piece of shit encounters , story , implementation .
 

Roguey

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Yep, if you blame Bobby Null for fucking the dog when it comes to managing the level designers, then you also have to blame Josh for not catching it and telling Bobby to get his shit in order. If he can't manage his middle managers, maybe he shouldn't be the lead designer.

What makes you think he didn't?

I can say with certainty that no other person at Obsidian would have received better results.
 
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Yep, if you blame Bobby Null for fucking the dog when it comes to managing the level designers, then you also have to blame Josh for not catching it and telling Bobby to get his shit in order. If he can't manage his middle managers, maybe he shouldn't be the lead designer.

What makes you think he didn't?

Well, it was so awful that even if he did, he clearly didn't follow up with it enough. I don't think good encounter design is easy, but PoE's is absolutely amateur. There's no way they couldn't have done better than they did if the lead designer cared more about it.

I can say with certainty that no other person at Obsidian would have received better results.

If true, that makes him the least retarded kid in the special ed class. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
 

Roguey

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Well, it was so awful that even if he did, he clearly didn't follow up with it enough. I don't think good encounter design is easy, but PoE's is absolutely amateur. There's no way they couldn't have done better than they did if the lead designer cared more about it.

As mentioned on the first page, he was extremely busy with systems design, directing the project as a whole, and writing Pallegina within a very short timeframe.

If true, that makes him the least retarded kid in the special ed class. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

I know. Absurdian. :)
 

tdphys

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But did he not *play* the game? I understood from some of the last beta interaction that alot of what he was doing in late action was *tuning* based on in game experience. Surely that meant he was playing some of the encounters? (maybe just the meaningful ones?)
 

Roguey

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But did he not *play* the game? I understood from some of the last beta interaction that alot of what he was doing in late action was *tuning* based on in game experience. Surely that meant he was playing some of the encounters? (maybe just the meaningful ones?)

Yeah, he played most of it and contributed to balancing hard, but he was working from the normal-baseline and there wasn't much time for course correction. Reminds me a bit of ToEE.

For design, there wasn't a lot of time put into the schedule for placing monsters and balancing the game. By the time we were ready to really put all the levels together, Tim and I were busy cleaning up quests, dialogue and other tasks. Fortunately, one of the artists, Craig Matchett, who was about three months ahead of schedule at all times, was completely freed up to place the monsters, tweak their abilities, and make the encounters challenging and memorable. So, when you play one of those really tough and challenging battles and live to tell the tale, thank Craig for putting it all together so well. (You can also blame him for that Hill Giant in Emridy Meadows, but that's another story.)

Note: "tough and challenging battles" are few and far in-between (but this is also the module's fault).
 

LivingOne

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First rtwp party-based rpg to be released and see some design by Sawyer has, for the most part, hordes of trash mobs(some of theme with a token marginally meaningful ability or resistance, plus a handful of squishy mages tossing fireballs or magic missiles here and there) rushing at your party as far as encounter desing goes. This includes areas designed by Sawyer himself.

The sequel to this game is released, this time directed by Sawyer, and the above statements about encounter design still holds true. Although the exceptions are slightly more frequent and some gimmick to spice up said hordes can be found(like the war-drums outside the goblin fortress).

Then we have another Sawyer-directed rtwp party based rpg and most encounters are comprised of hordes of trash mobs, some of them with a token marginally meaningful ability, a handful are squshy mages tossing necrotic lances or magic missiles here and there.

Yeah, must have been Bobby Null's fault:?(tho' it's true that the IWDs had a bit more exceptions to the rule, so there's that in Sawyer's defense I suppose).
 

Roguey

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I liked Josh's areas in IWD (except the first), I wrote an article about it. :cool:

If PoE actually does have many areas comparable to those, that would be a fun joke on me when it comes to taking others at their word.
 

Immortal

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Well, it was so awful that even if he did, he clearly didn't follow up with it enough. I don't think good encounter design is easy, but PoE's is absolutely amateur. There's no way they couldn't have done better than they did if the lead designer cared more about it.

As mentioned on the first page, he was extremely busy with systems design, directing the project as a whole, and writing Pallegina within a very short timeframe.

If true, that makes him the least retarded kid in the special ed class. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

I know. Absurdian. :)

As mentioned on the first page, he was extremely busy with systems design, directing the project as a whole, and writing Pallegina within a very short timeframe.

Mention it all you want. You can't suck his dick for all the good parts of the game and discount all the bad parts to other developers. He was the lead and it's his job to point the ship in the right direction. Any further speculation on your part about why he wasn't able to do that - is just that, speculation.

A Lead Designer who can't lead a team to success is not a good lead designer. If Josh can't handle his team then he should just design.
 

Roguey

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Mention it all you want. You can't suck his dick for all the good parts of the game and discount all the bad parts to other developers.

I have criticized him for his system balance failures.

A Lead Designer who can't lead a team to success is not a good lead designer. If Josh can't handle his team then he should just design.

He did lead them to commercial and critical success. So far only 9% of Steam users and 11% of metacritic users had a negative experience. As he said on the first page

As long as we feel that we hit those goals and the majority of players agree, we can't worry about the margins who a) never agreed with those goals or b) don't feel we met them.
 

Immortal

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Mention it all you want. You can't suck his dick for all the good parts of the game and discount all the bad parts to other developers.

I have criticized him for his system balance failures.

A Lead Designer who can't lead a team to success is not a good lead designer. If Josh can't handle his team then he should just design.

He did lead them to commercial and critical success. So far only 9% of Steam users and 11% of metacritic users had a negative experience. As he said on the first page

As long as we feel that we hit those goals and the majority of players agree, we can't worry about the margins who a) never agreed with those goals or b) don't feel we met them.

I don't care about meta critic scores because most people are stupid.
I am referring to your reaction / feelings on quality. I get the feeling you are disappointed with aspects of the game but feel the necessity to push those off to other people (minus the above mentioned) and I don't think that's fair if he's acting as a lead designer role.

Some amount of blame for every poorly implemented feature sits with him. Especially considering the team he had to manage was relatively speaking, very small.
 
Unwanted
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I have to agree with you there. Even their QA is fairly clueless. There was a point in beta when Dexterity's usefulness was called into question by Backer Beta players but they were ignored at first since internal QA insisted it was useful. It turns out that Dexterity was bugged and did nothing.

There's a reason companies are trying to establish fanatical core community of manchildren and OCD ridden nutcases. They QA their game much better than the 20 overpaid Bums they have to hire otherwise.

It wasn't possible in the 90s because there was no supply of such people.
 

Roguey

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I am referring to your reaction / feelings on quality. I get the feeling you are disappointed with aspects of the game but feel the necessity to push those off to other people (minus the above mentioned) and I don't think that's fair if he's acting as a lead designer role.

Some amount of blame for every poorly implemented feature sits with him. Especially considering the team he had to manage was relatively speaking, very small.

In general, I believe people attribute too much to project directors (or equivalent). The high-level design of the companions and areas in F:NV (outside of the Strip) Pillars of Eternity was entirely mine, as was the entirety of the system design, but I did not do any of the hands-on design for any quest or location, I didn't design the central plot or conflict (that was John Gonzalez Eric Fenstermaker), and I only wrote a small number of dialogues (Arcade, Hanlon, Kimball's speech and a few others) (Pallegina and possibly others).

I dictated the overall tone and direction of the setting, story, and system mechanics, but there was a huge small team of people responsible for doing the actual design work and implementation. At times, I demanded specific things, like the ability to kill any non-child NPC in the game and still complete the critical path no walking encyclopedias (which they ignored). In most cases, I let the designers have a lot of freedom within a loose outline of what an area was supposed to be. Sometimes the designers convinced me to change the outline of those areas, so in the end, they had more influence over the high-level design than I did.
 

Immortal

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I am referring to your reaction / feelings on quality. I get the feeling you are disappointed with aspects of the game but feel the necessity to push those off to other people (minus the above mentioned) and I don't think that's fair if he's acting as a lead designer role.

Some amount of blame for every poorly implemented feature sits with him. Especially considering the team he had to manage was relatively speaking, very small.

In general, I believe people attribute too much to project directors (or equivalent). The high-level design of the companions and areas in F:NV (outside of the Strip) Pillars of Eternity was entirely mine, as was the entirety of the system design, but I did not do any of the hands-on design for any quest or location, I didn't design the central plot or conflict (that was John Gonzalez Eric Fenstermaker), and I only wrote a small number of dialogues (Arcade, Hanlon, Kimball's speech and a few others) (Pallegina and possibly others).

I dictated the overall tone and direction of the setting, story, and system mechanics, but there was a huge small team of people responsible for doing the actual design work and implementation. At times, I demanded specific things, like the ability to kill any non-child NPC in the game and still complete the critical path no walking encyclopedias (which they ignored). In most cases, I let the designers have a lot of freedom within a loose outline of what an area was supposed to be. Sometimes the designers convinced me to change the outline of those areas, so in the end, they had more influence over the high-level design than I did.

Nah, I don't buy it. This is all his subjective opinion. You can't take credit for the good and deny the bad.
 

felipepepe

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A good leader does the opposite: give credit to the individuals for their achievements but take the blame for any flaw that he let slip. Because it IS his fault for approving them.
 

Roguey

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Pretty sure that is in fact what he did in that paragraph. :?
 

felipepepe

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Signed confession where he says the game's shitty encounter design are his fault or bust. :obviously:
 

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