Pre-release Pillars of Eternity quotes (or: Josh Sawyer writing checks Obsidian can't cash)

[AwesomeButton]

Holy shit, that's an impressive list of quotes.

Individuals may become really mad at us leaving in or taking out some thing that they hate/love, but unless the logic of their argument leads me to believe that a significant portion of the backers and future players are going to have a negative experience because of it, the complaint doesn't go very far. That has much less to do with what people say and much more to do with how they play.

Now I know for certain that Josh Sawyer's vision of what's fun has produced a game that is less enjoyable for me than the IE games. Maybe not god-awful, but definetly less enjoyable, and not only because it's not the same player that's playing it today, but definitely also because it's less enjoyable. As far as my experience is concerned, he has failed.

We're going to be adding, removing, and adjusting things all the way through beta and beyond. Some of that will be based on user feedback and a lot of it will be based on internal observations. But when it comes to the basics, we don't really need people to help us figure out how to achieve the feeling of games we helped develop in the first place. If bits and pieces are off, I'm sure people will let us know and we'll be able to adjust, but we're not going to get the broad strokes wrong.

I think I would have guessed whose quote is this even if I didn't know.
I know two large groups of players who would agree that they got the broad strokes right - casuals and journos.

Choosing a non-standard array of ability scores for a given class should not, IMO, be an implicit difficulty modifier.

Yeah, and instead the choice of ability scores should matter shit, because that leads to such diversity in gameplay. Got it.

Confirmation that special ammo was planned and cut (because it wasn't a stretch goal).

That's good news, they will probably implement it eventually, if they've already done some work on it.

These can include plenty of side-topics, but I don't want characters to be walking encyclopedias.

U w0t m8?

There are really two things I want every attribute in PoE to accomplish:

1) If a player makes a character of any class, they can look at the attribute and say, "My character will be significantly better at <SIGNIFICANT_THING> for having raised this attribute."

And less vital, but still important:

2) If a player makes a character of any class, they will look at at attribute and say, "My character will suffer significantly for having dumped this attribute."

Depending on how wild and wacky you get with varieties of attribute bonuses, it becomes more difficult for both of those goals to be accomplished. A/D&D's stats often do not accomplish both of those goals for any given class.

Congratulations, you have failed in both tasks at the game's release. Good luck rebalancing, because this game is still in mid-development from what I see.

PoE would use a RTwP combat system and that it would not fundamentally differ much from BG/IWD. The places where it does differ (e.g. not using rounds, different attack/defense system, Stamina/Health, few to no save or die effects, few to no hard counters)

Lol, so "basically the same, only nothing is the same". Did he listen to himself when he thought and wrote that?

I prefer skill-based/classless systems by a wide margin.

Hey, me too, whether they're done correctly like in Underrail, or crazy unbalanced like in Arcanum.

BG2 was built on BG and TotSC -- many years of code development and adapting a known and extensively codified ruleset. We're designing and implementing everything from scratch on a very short timeline.

Well, I feel for you. I hope PoE turns out to be a nice and fun game in 6-8 months.

If you want Obsidian to make a classless skill-based game, I certainly won't object (especially if it's a historical game -- classless skill-based games are what I make and prefer to play on my own time),

I wouldn't have thought that, but we seem to have similar tastes.

The notion that the only reason people replay old games is not because some of those games are damn good but because they're junkies desperate for a nostalgia dose is absurd, it's just a way to mask incompetence (and constant desperate attempts to appeal to mass market) and failure to live up to the standard the old games set in a number of ways.

That's the truth right there. You should put that quote in the <title> tag.

 

[felipepepe]

Hmm, that's not the analogy I would choose. Can you think of two traditional fast-paced shooters, one of which has more robust mechanics and balance, and the other which people just find "cooler" or which has more elaborate levels or whatever? Quake vs Duke3D maybe, but I'm not sure that quite captures that.

I would say Battlefield vs. Arma, but their focus is entirely different. Is like comparing Burnout with Forza.

Bioshock vs. System Shock 2 maybe.

 

[Ellef]

I'm not sure Pillars vs BG captures that either.

 

[Orma]

U w0t m8?

Think he is referring to the retarded dialogue systems like the one Morrowind had.

 

[AwesomeButton]

U w0t m8?

Think he is referring to the retarded dialogue systems like the one Morrowind had.

Heh, I was going for irony, as many NPCs in PoE often serve as exactly what he described as walking encyclopedias.

 

[Infinitron]

Hmm, that's not the analogy I would choose. Can you think of two traditional fast-paced shooters, one of which has more robust mechanics and balance, and the other which people just find "cooler" or which has more elaborate levels or whatever? Quake vs Duke3D maybe, but I'm not sure that quite captures that.

I would say Battlefield vs. Arma, but their focus is entirely different. Is like comparing Burnout with Forza.

Bioshock vs. System Shock 2 maybe.

Hmmm, a little bit, but not quite that either. Although a harder Bioshock without degenerate resurrection mechanics could have been pretty Sawyery, this isn't a simple "streamlined version of the old game" situation.

The usual dichotomy is "simpler but more balanced" vs "more features but less balanced". Pillars of Eternity is more like...lots of features that are also more evenly spread out. So BG2 might have more wizard cheese and moar cooler items, but Pillars has more everything. More weapon types, more classes, more abilities, more walls full of stats.

Again, really a fantastic piece of work for somebody's first Kickstarter game. I really don't think any other developer could have achieved it. Too bad they didn't set Hard = Path of the Damned, could have spared some Codex butthurt.

 

[Immortal]

Of course, we know that those games have hidden depths, but can you expect them to see that? I suppose that new players would think that the concept of multiclassing and kits is pretty cool, but what else?

They would know from multiple sources that those games are fucking classics, and thus try to see what's all this about.

I'm pretty sure that a 20's something today trying DOOM would cry about arrow key movement, no free aiming, lack of a cover system, no need to reload, no regenerating health, holding alt to strafe, no checkpoints, no cutscenes, no backstory, etc... but he's just a damn retard if he goes "muh calofiduty is bettah at everything!".

Nobody is saying that PoE should have played like a 20 year old game or not be iterated on.
I think Infinitron is falling into the "Publishers think People are retarded" trap of dumbing down everything.

When you make a bullet list like that, all those designs look like flaws.. but some of them add to the character and feeling of the game.

For example:
"What do you mean, Wizards have to memorize each individual casting of a spell? This is annoying."

If you balance around this mechanic, it's totally fine and in fact a very effective way of making spells feel high reward/ high cost / planning ahead.
This isn't a black and white issue and you trying to put that point on the same list as:

"Seriously, what the fuck is Charisma for?"

Just shows your trying too hard to make a point that doesn't exist. You can fix some things while leaving some things the same and balancing around it.

When I backed this game.. I wasn't looking for a 20 year old game, I just wanted something fun and challenging that felt like those older games.

 

[Ellef]

BG2 also has 11 classes, and that's excluding the 20 or so kits, and all the multiclass options.

 

[felipepepe]

The usual dichotomy is "simpler but more balanced" vs "more features but less balanced". Pillars of Eternity is more like...lots of features that are also more evenly spread out. So BG2 might have more wizard cheese and moar cooler items, but Pillars has more everything. More weapon types, more classes, more abilities, more walls full of stats.

WAT? PoE has "more everything" that fucking BG2? You're mad, PoE's problem is precisely the lack of depth, the lack of things that actually matter. That feeling that you beat the game once and already saw everything worthwhile.

Yeah, it may have more basic weapon types, but so what if they all play the same? Choosing between two magical weapons in BG2 (say Adjatha the Drinker vs. Daystar) is 10x more meaningful than choosing between entire weapon types in PoE. And PoE still has less spells, less enemy types, less quests, less locations, less magical items, less character building choices (kits & multiclassing), less companions, less stongholds, less interesting encounters, etc...

 

[AwesomeButton]

BG2 also has 11 classes, and that's excluding the 20 or so kits, and all the multiclass options.

I just started to replay BG2, after having (nearly) finished BG just before PoE's release, and after dropping PoE at the end of Act 2. I'm using a friend of mine who has never played IE games as a reference as he plays a BG2 wizard. It's very fun to behold, how he doesn't get it that the blue buttons are actually arrows that scroll between portraits, various rules- and UI- related funny moments.

However, firing up BG2 again really convinced me that it's unfair to compare PoE to BG2 of all IE games, like Sawyer himself hints in those quotes. Comparing PoE to BG though, leaves me with an answer like "It's your call" to a question which is better, which really isn't an achievement for PoE either, in my opinion. I'm hoping they patch, fix, x-pack it enough to get it up to speed by the end of the year, which would coincide with Tim Cain's "3,5 years" development period for a good RPG.

My unemotional, "dry" 2 cents.

 

[Infinitron]

WAT? You're mad, PoE's problem is precisely the lack of depth, the lack of things that actually matter. Yeah, it may have more basic weapon types, but so what if they all play the same?

I'm not interested in having this discussion here, so I point you to Pope Amole II's posts (and to a lesser extent, VentilatorOfDoom's) that demonstrate how PoE's core mechanics are being severely underrated by many Codexers. The notion that "Sawyer failed" has been significantly demolished by said posts over the past few days:

You can start from here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-poe-ruleset-part-n.99070/page-8#post-3910125

And more here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...rator-page-x-review.99104/page-4#post-3910405

 

[felipepepe]

"PoE is underrated" =/= "PoE has more everything than BG2"

And I don't see nothing being "demolished" there. Oh, maybe PoE's stat don't suck so much, but the game still doesn't present anything interesting for you to throw your stats at. And even VD had a change of heart and now can't force himself to finish the game due to overall mediocrity. How's that for "significantly demolishing the Sawyer failed myth"?

 

[Ellef]

I fail to see how the Pope Amole post discusses your point in any way.

You say Pillars has more of everything and the quoted posts talk about the math behind the ability scores we learned from Sawyer during the beta, and a few status effects that casters can do.

 

[Infinitron]

BG2 also has 11 classes, and that's excluding the 20 or so kits, and all the multiclass options.

That's true, but on the other hand, some of those AD&D classes are a lot more like "variant of Fighter" and "variant of Cleric" than PoE's are.

"PoE is underrated" =/= "PoE has more everything than BG2"

"More everything" wasn't meant to be taken literally. My point was, there's a noticeable amount of effort put into adding more choice that's more evenly spread out throughout the entire system. Heck, even the resting-at-inns system gets some love. How many RPGs have got that?

 

[felipepepe]

"More everything" wasn't meant to be taken literally. My point was, there's a noticeable amount of effort put into adding more choice that's more evenly spread out throughout the entire system. Heck, even the resting-at-inns system gets some love. How many RPGs have got that?

Yeah, all combat encounters are just monsters standing in a room, but bro, the inns boost different stats! DAT EFFORT!

Look, I don't deny that Obsidian put a lot of effort, dedication & love into PoE. They just didn't put it at the right places. And sometimes even when they did, they failed to deliver, like the shitty "all your choices mean nothing" Act 2 ending

 

[Lord Andre]

Filler combats are bad. If I could go back and remove 1/3 of the battle content (and areas) from IWD2, I would. There were a lot of solid fights in that game, but a lot of them resulted in drudgery. Even so, I think the best stuff came through when we mixed and matched enemy types that posed different threats to the player. A lot of those fights had simple AI but the enemy placement/reinforcement timing was heavily tuned.

I would print this on a piece of paper than take Sawyer by the neck like a puppy who pissed on the carpet and rub his nose in it 'till his face is red.

 

[UglyBastard]

I'm not exactly convinced that getting +3% action speed after resting at an Inn outweighs the tons of excellent content in BG2.

Pretty much all the "more" that PoE offers is rather inconsequential, like more useless talent points to distribute at level up, more interchangeable weapon types or more dry textwalls to click through.

Stuff like Inn resting bonus is cute, but all that cute shit doesn't do anything if the core gameplay lacks.

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah, all combat encounters are just monsters standing in a room, but bro, the inns boost different stats! DAT EFFORT!

Look, I don't deny that Obsidian put a lot of effort, dedication & love into PoE. They just didn't put it at the right places.

Fair enough. As the person who coined the term(?) "Content Is King", I can't really give you a snappy answer to that. Although like I said elsewhere, I don't think the whole 'horde combat' thing is really alien to the tradition of the Icewind Dale series.

You know, I actually predicted this a long time ago, back when everybody was wasting their time arguing to hell about the game's attributes and other core systems. Incomplete content was always the real worry here, not Sawyer's RPG design philosophy.

It's a shame people didn't talk more about encounter design during this game's development, but on the other hand, by releasing a one area beta, Obsidian kind of focused peoples' debate on systems design instead of encounter design.

 

[almondblight]

I would print this on a piece of paper than take Sawyer by the neck like a puppy who pissed on the carpet and rub his nose in it 'till his face is red.

The problem is a lot of players defend copy and paste filler combat. Look at the posts here saying that it was fine in BG because it helped with pacing (it didn't) or was good because it wears down your party (it isn't). I think the problem is that there are a large number of RPG players who like the games because they have a MMORPG/slot machine mentality; they enjoy doing mindless repetitive stuff for hours if it makes some imaginary numbers slowly increase. See the number of complaints about filler trash combat in PoE where people are saying the problem is lack of XP, as if getting XP would somehow make trash encounters enjoyable.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

It might be more interesting to examine the "nostalgia question" from the opposite direction. That is, not from the direction of "Don't you like that game so much only because it came before this one?" but rather "Would you like that game as much if it came after this one?"

I would have liked BG games more regardless of whether I've played them before, during or after trying out PoE, therefore what you propose is not interesting to me.

So, put yourself in the shoes of some inquisitive 20 year old who plays PoE, likes it, and then decides to revisit the classics it's based upon.

Needless mental gymnastics, your average 20 year old who likes PoE will probably quit right after being shocked by the fact that his party members can actually die during combat instead of taking a nap.

I could go on and on.

And I could list reasons why I like BG games over PoE but that would be pointless as most of them wouldn't appeal to your hypothetical inquisitive 20 year old who probably feels MMO inspired mechanics, class roles and itemization is the only right way.

Of course, we know that those games have hidden depths...

And PoE doesn't, that's the problem. There's nothing extra to squeeze out, do or find to warrant lasting appeal.


Regardless, none of this has anything to do with my argument which is that it's convenient to bring up nostalgia to deflect any criticism of your design philosophy and changes. Yes, what you play in your youth does mold your tastes to a certain degree but it's nonsense to completely disregard personal preferences that form outside any influence and act like the reaction would be the same to any proposed changes to the old formula. To give you an example, I love Fallout 1/2 and Gothic 1/2 but I very much liked the changes/improvements in AoD and Risen 1.

Point is that saying - it is without question that my design ideas are logical, rational and superior and if you disagree with them in any way it is because of your irrational, nostalgia addled mind- is very arrogant and condescending.

 

[roshan]

Look, I don't deny that Obsidian put a lot of effort, dedication & love into PoE.

I personally don't see any effort, dedication and love in POE at all. I mean what effort does it take to create a "town" like Gilded Vale with 3 boring fedex quests, 3 or 4 houses you can enter, a shitty dungeon filled with trash mobs, with no thought at all about how lizards and ghosts could be living side by side in the same area? And how did those lizards sneak into town and settle in that hole right in the midst of the human population? The town doesn't even have anyone you can talk to or interact with aside from the Fedex dispensers. There are no secrets, nothing to find or discover.

Then the wilderness areas. No NPCs. No character, just random mobs dumped at every corner filling every inch of space with painfully boring trash combat. No effort at all to create characters, make something meaningful and memorable.

Or take the start where you witness a soul missile being fired from a silo and then cannot even interact or explore anything, nothing to find, nothing to discover. This is a game that has no atmosphere, no creativity, it has not a single spark of love or creativity that could make a player entertained or happy. A completely bland and soulless experience.

For games actually made with effort, dedication and love, I recommend Dragonfall, The Banner Saga and Lords of Xulima.

 

[Seari]

Well at least effort was put in by the art team, such a waste.

 

[Shevek]

Yeah, all combat encounters are just monsters standing in a room, but bro, the inns boost different stats! DAT EFFORT!

Look, I don't deny that Obsidian put a lot of effort, dedication & love into PoE. They just didn't put it at the right places.

Fair enough. As the person who coined the term(?) "Content Is King", I can't really give you a snappy answer to that. Although like I said elsewhere, I don't think the whole 'horde combat' thing is really alien to the tradition of the Icewind Dale series.

You know, I actually predicted this a long time ago, back when everybody was wasting their time arguing to hell about the game's attributes and other core systems. Incomplete content was always the real worry here, not Sawyer's RPG design philosophy.

It's a shame people didn't talk more about encounter design during this game's development, but on the other hand, by releasing a one area beta, Obsidian kind of focused peoples' debate on systems design instead of encounter design.

Encounter design came up quite a bit in backer beta actually but I think they just needed experience with this type of game again. Through most of Beta, when Hard was actually Hard, only Sawyer could playtest Hard since it was over the heads of other devs. It must be tough for him to convey to designers what a tough encounter should be if they are working on different frameworks of what challenge in a game means. Also, encounter design is actually pretty good in some parts (probably developed later in the development cycle) when you play on PotD. If you dont, you are so OP that the game is a breeze. The game is highly dependent on accuracy and defense values. In PotD, enemies have respectable stats. As soon as these stats dips, you start landing crits constantly and the challenge/need for debuffs/etc goes out the window. I also think that if many of the optional bounty encounters (many of which are pretty good like the Ogre Druids) were actually woven into the quests then they would more seemlessly exist in the game. They wouldnt feel tacked on, in other words, and people would feel more comfortable stating that the encounter design as a whole was alright.

 

[GloomFrost]

I actually liked POE a lot but it doesnt even get close to BG2. Pretty much every single thing in BG2 (maybe except for dialogues) is vastly superior to POE. I mean just try to compare area design and quests in Alkatla and Defiance Bay.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I personally don't see any effort, dedication and love in POE at all...

One of it is the setting/lore, regardless of the execution (infodumps and whatever) or whether you like it or not it's obvious a lot of care went into establishing a new setting, the history of it, various cultures, their customs, relations between them, the way Gods were presented etc.

Not just talking about RPG genre but in general, games usually just don't go into such detail in regards to the setting they occur in. It's where PoE has the biggest potential for me, I like when games try to make it feel like their world has a rich history and you're just a small, insignificant part of it.