Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Cazzeris]

So..., is this game any good?

Yes.

What are its strengths?

 

[bonescraper]

The guy [...] has baisclaly told his boss to fuck off.

Interesting. Source?

 

[Ravel myluv]

Yeah.... Exactly the low progression I was fearing... One big part of the fun in RPGs is empowerement. At the end of POE I guess my character will be ony twice as powerful as in the beginning... Great...

You are aware you do not put attributes in the IE games once you begin right? I mean, past special weapons or unique books.

This is a enormous difference on whether you dump Intelligence or not for a wizard. Though i'd actually prefer if any points below 10 gave a negative modifier and anything above a positive one (so the 3 int thing is what you would expect of a int 11 Wizard), this is already a big ass 'choice' in how you flavor your character.

Mmmm I might misunderstand the word "attribute", but as far as I remember you do put points in attributes in the beginning in the game.

 

[Bubbles]

What are its strengths?

- pretty 2D backgrounds
- a lot of dialogue text
- very well balanced attribute system
- reasonably well balanced skill system

 

[imweasel]

The guy [...] has baisclaly told his boss to fuck off.

Interesting. Source?

That was a long time ago during the kickstarter. Feargus wrote in the comments that he was on the fence about the no combat XP thing (there was already a lot of controversy about this mechanic back then).

It was definitely linked in the old thread.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

The flamewar on the Obsidian forums has been fairly lulzy. Someone just produced a Sawyer quote on BG2 from 2006, before he had to sugarcoat it for the "IE successor" kickstarter :

I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39...-in-fallouts-special-game-system/#entry526647

Sorry if this has been quoted here before but I had to chuckle at him then gritting his teeth, making a 'spiritual successor' to BG2 and dealing with BG2 fans

 

[Volourn]

"Interesting. Source?"

As Imweasel stated.

Early on, when OBS was hinting at no combat/kill xp lots of people make a stink about it. Feargue rushed in said he was siding with those and he promised he would have a 'talk' with the designers about it to get it changed. Obviously that talk didn't go in Feargus' favor. Obviously, I'm being ove the top as I'm sure even Sawyer isn't dumb enoguh to literally tell his boss to 'fuck off' but it's obvious Sawyer 'won' the argument.

 

[Arkeus]

Mmmm I might misunderstand the word "attribute", but as far as I remember you do put points in attributes in the beginning in the game.

You put points before the game begins. There is no 'progression' of attributes, though i guess you can put a couple of points through unique books in BG1, and some very rare items in BG2 sets your attribute at certain levels.

You were, however, talking about 'progression of characters'. This isn't "progression", this is "you have a different character type".

 

[Bubbles]

The flamewar on the Obsidian forums has been fairly lulzy. Someone just produced a Sawyer quote on BG2 from 2006, before he had to sugarcoat it for the "IE successor" kickstarter :

I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39...-in-fallouts-special-game-system/#entry526647

Sorry if this has been quoted here before but I had to chuckle at him then gritting his teeth, making a 'spiritual successor' to BG2 and dealing with BG2 fans

He should quit his position on the game and start working on something he actually wants to make. It's never too late to change things for the better. And he already got paid anyway.

 

[Ravel myluv]

Mmmm I might misunderstand the word "attribute", but as far as I remember you do put points in attributes in the beginning in the game.

You put points before the game begins. There is no 'progression' of attributes, though i guess you can put a couple of points through unique books in BG1, and some very rare items in BG2 sets your attribute at certain levels.

You were, however, talking about 'progression of characters'. This isn't "progression", this is "you have a different character type".

Right. I was mainly remembering the Planescape Torment system, which does include a progression in attributes.

 

[Raggg]

The flamewar on the Obsidian forums has been fairly lulzy. Someone just produced a Sawyer quote on BG2 from 2006, before he had to sugarcoat it for the "IE successor" kickstarter :

I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39...-in-fallouts-special-game-system/#entry526647

Sorry if this has been quoted here before but I had to chuckle at him then gritting his teeth, making a 'spiritual successor' to BG2 and dealing with BG2 fans

My man.

 

[Spockrock]

Sure that's realistic alright, but the aim here is not to be realistic, but to create interesting choices, and viability.

In the current system, there's basically zero point to use any other ranged weapons except arbalests and arquebuses.

They have superior first hit damage (important) and they have superior DPS, and they aren't that affected by DT.

Bows (haven't tried Crossbows yet) are shit, they don't do high damage and they are nigh useless on grazes. Sure they attack quick but a succession of fast attacks is not going to get you anywhere near the damage ranges you pull on the heavier duty ranged weapons.

Against 12 DT, A bow does less than 1 point of damage on pretty much every graze damage roll.

thanks for a detailed response.

I'm not convinced that high damage on first attack is anything to be worried about, though. a lot of things play into making that first shot possible.

 

[Infinitron]

The flamewar on the Obsidian forums has been fairly lulzy. Someone just produced a Sawyer quote on BG2 from 2006, before he had to sugarcoat it for the "IE successor" kickstarter :

I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39...-in-fallouts-special-game-system/#entry526647

Sorry if this has been quoted here before but I had to chuckle at him then gritting his teeth, making a 'spiritual successor' to BG2 and dealing with BG2 fans

My man.

As I said:

I'm sure there more dignifying jobs for him than dragging a bunch of fans of a real-time-with-elves Bioware game kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

I wasn't just talking about game mechanics when I said that. He also disliked/dislikes Bioware games for other reasons.

 

[Rake]

The game would be propably better without attributes at all. As Infinitron stated, the system stands just fine without them, and it would save Sawyer the headache to balance six stats that are superficial anyway. Sure, gnognards would bitch, but they are doing it anyway. And it would make for a better game as it would let the designers to focus in abilities and talents to diversifie the character builds.

Just remove the attributes, use the various classes at a pre design role(they are doing it anyway) and have more abilities and talents to let players tweak their character. Then reintroduse the six traditional attributes (str/dex/con/int/wis/cha as they define a character better than Sawyer's names), only give them zero mechanical impact and use them exclusively in dialogue and scripted interactions. Make them a narrative tool instead part of the game system, and problems solved. Deep down Sawyer wants it too, but he feels isn't in the "IE spirit" as if what he does is.
There would be the same amount of complains but it would propably result in a better game and it would be closer to Sawyer's "vision"

 

[bonescraper]

So, what exactly makes this a IE successor?

Don't tell me it's the presentation. So far, this game brings Atari's infamous Pool of Radiance to my mind more than any other game of that period.

But this turd had better mechanics and turn-based combat

 

[Infinitron]

I thought you no longer had any interest in this game

 

[bonescraper]

I have interest in this thread though. It brings me much entertainment.

 

[Infinitron]

Yay, another FeelTheRads

 

[Rake]

I'm sure there more dignifying jobs for him than dragging a bunch of fans of a real-time-with-elves Bioware game kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

I wasn't just talking about game mechanics when I said that. He also disliked/dislikes Bioware games for other reasons.

Sawyer would be the first to say that his preferences don't matter and as a profesional his job is to make games that their intended audience like. They are the ones that chose to make in IE successor and they are the ones that chose to put Sawyer as lead. The kickstarter would work just as fine only with Avellone and Cain as big names, or just have him work on the Project but not lead it.
He made his bed, now he cannot complain that IE games aren't what he wants to make, because no one gives a shit about what he wants to make.
They could have him pitch a game as their second kickstarter with "Sawyer's dream game, Darklands: MOBA edition or whatever as title. I would even contribute to that.

 

[Raggg]

The game would be propably better without attributes at all.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that this is true.

 

[tuluse]

The game would be propably better without attributes at all. As Infinitron stated, the system stands just fine without them, and it would save Sawyer the headache to balance six stats that are superficial anyway. Sure, gnognards would bitch, but they are doing it anyway. And it would make for a better game as it would let the designers to focus in abilities and talents to diversifie the character builds.

I don't get this either. He made 6 attributes to please people, but designed them in such a way that the players who wanted 6 attributes and 6 attributes only won't be happy anyways.

 

[set]

It hurts so much. I'm just going to replay SRR, the beta so far is a massive disappointment. I'd be deathly ill at this point, were it not for D:OS turning out to be so amazing.

I like some of the things Sawyer says and I like some of the ideas shown so far in the Beta - but this is so far and removed from what makes BG or BG2 good I don't understand how this was released to us in this state. The attributes and their insignificant impact and the lack of any character building - it's typical of 2010+ era RPGs. At least games like Path of Exile give you a skill point on every level up, allow you to reach 100+ skill points, and allow certain passive skills to significantly alter playstyle... PoE's passive skills feel more like WoW perks than they do passive skills? Ugh.

 

[Infinitron]

The game would be propably better without attributes at all. As Infinitron stated, the system stands just fine without them, and it would save Sawyer the headache to balance six stats that are superficial anyway. Sure, gnognards would bitch, but they are doing it anyway. And it would make for a better game as it would let the designers to focus in abilities and talents to diversifie the character builds.

I don't get this either. He made 6 attributes to please people, but designed them in such a way that the players who wanted 6 attributes and 6 attributes only won't be happy anyways.

Perhaps he assumes most players won't look that deeply into the exact functionality of the attributes. He might be right. Certainly not everybody goes berzerk when they see a percentage instead of an absolute modifier in a stat's tooltip.

It hurts so much. I'm just going to replay SRR, the beta so far is a massive disappointment. I'd be deathly ill at this point, were it not for D:OS turning out to be so amazing.

I like some of the things Sawyer says and I like some of the ideas shown so far in the Beta - but this is so far and removed from what makes BG or BG2 good I don't understand how this was released to us in this state. The attributes and their insignificant impact and the lack of any character building - it's typical of 2010+ era RPGs. At least games like Path of Exile give you a skill point on every level up, allow you to reach 100+ skill points, and allow certain passive skills to significantly alter playstyle... PoE's passive skills feel more like WoW perks than they do passive skills? Ugh.

Attributes aren't what made BG and BG2 good.

 

[Blaine]

I already gave my extra WL2 Steam keys away to my non-Codex RPG-playing friends, so who wants this? The recipient will be randomly selected, although a known history of chowing down on Josh's trouser dragon a little too hard is a disqualifying factor, so bear that in mind.

 

[Bubbles]

Sure, give me all the keys you have.