Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Harold]

Well, it'd be nice if somebody from Obsidian could weigh in on that. 2012 was a long time ago and it'd be understandable if they axed what was ultimately a gimmick feature.

Well, yeah sure, but if done well even such a gimmicky feature can be remembered well for a long time - see Bloodlines. And like Duraframe said, I think it may still be added, I remember b mitsoda saying he added the Malkavian dialogue at the very last minute.

 

[Grunker]

Well, the IE games mostly had a "loot what you see" system when it came to armor and weapons, so their approach to inventory was pragmatic. Judging from the beta, PoE only lets you loot armor and weapons off enemies very rarely, so they can afford to go with a smaller inventory.

This is not what they said would happen though. They said it would be a WYSIWYG looting system. I noted that humanoid enemies didn't drop any gear, and I'm going to bring it up once I've played more. This is something that's imperative to an IE looting feel. Who gives a rats if they need to rebalance the economy, their own fault for making it like this in the first place.

a-fucking-men

 

[Shaewaroz]

The druid charm animal ability is ridiculously unbalance - it makes all fauna either kill their friends or commit suicide. It's pretty funny to watch lions claw themselves to death.

 

[Harold]

I though the poor customization of the IE-games was something Josh vowed to fix as one of the first things? If you can only manipulate skills on level-up, it sounds like a pretty odd point to stick with IE-norms. I don't think you'll find many people who will defend the lack of interactivity on the IE level-up screen (which often mainly consisted of clicking 'accept').

Ther will be talents aka feats/perks available every three levels, but most aren't implemented yet as they're waiting for backer feedback before they add them. The perks in NV were supposedly also added late in development.

 

[Sensuki]

Sensuki: following the beta impressions, my main two worries right now are customization and combat feel. Can you comment a little on these:

1) From listening to you and Infinitron discuss in this thread, it seems like level-ups are nearly as automated as they were in the IE-games. I though the poor customization of the IE-games was something Josh vowed to fix as one of the first things? If you can only manipulate skills on level-up, it sounds like a pretty odd point to stick with IE-norms. I don't think you'll find many people who will defend the lack of interactivity on the IE level-up screen (which often mainly consisted of clicking 'accept').

Yeah leveling up is about as static as it is in IWD2. Being able to choose from a list of class abilities would have been cool, but 11 classes (and perhaps ) meant that they had to be in a specific order.

2) Is it true that the game feels more like NWN2 than the IE-games in terms of impactfulness and kinaesthetics? That is potentially a huge detractor for me. I said very early on during the Kickstarter and still maintain that it was the below-the-hood type stuff that sent the IE-games into "great" territory. Among this stuff was some of the most crisp and solid kinaesthetics I've experienced in a game of their type. Accordingly, NWN 1, but NWN 2 even more, had some of the worst design I've ever played with in that department.

Yeah it doesn't feel like the IE games because it's missing a lot of combat sounds, animations are floaty, FX are not lined up properly with animations, hit reactions to a lot of things aren't in, movement is completely fucked atm (you can like occupy the same physical space as another unit), positioning is a clusterfuck. The potential is there to fix most of that, but it just depends whether they'll actually have the time to do that. I'm kind of bothered that they've completely missed a lot of the fundamental basics and have to do extra work at this stage of development just to add basic stuff in. For instance, are there any rules in the movement system that govern what units can occupy on the physical space in the map? How is that coded? Etc etc

I would say it looks kinda like a mish-mash of IE, ToEE and NWN2.

 

[Harold]

The druid charm animal ability is ridiculously unbalance - it makes all fauna either kill their friends or commit suicide. It's pretty funny to watch lions claw themselves to death.

They should seriously consider not removing the suicide bug. Best Obsidian bug to date.

 

[Grunker]

I though the poor customization of the IE-games was something Josh vowed to fix as one of the first things? If you can only manipulate skills on level-up, it sounds like a pretty odd point to stick with IE-norms. I don't think you'll find many people who will defend the lack of interactivity on the IE level-up screen (which often mainly consisted of clicking 'accept').

Ther will be talents aka feats/perks available every three levels, but most aren't implemented yet as they're waiting for backer feedback before they add them. The perks in NV were supposedly also added late in development.

Every 3 levels still means that most levels will be awfully automated. Compare this to the design movement in every other area of class-based RPG design where the philosophy has increasingly been "every level needs to offer new choices and features, even if those are marginal and less impacting." Pathfinder basically started it by first and foremost being a version of 3.5 that offered said choices and features on each level, as a contradiction to classic D&D's "dead levels" and 4th edition's somewhat identical leveling. I think modern theories of design in this department are one of the few strictly positive evolutions in RPG design, and I'm very surprised if Josh Sawyer chose anachronism over modernity concerning this particular element of design.

 

[Harold]

^ This probably falls in the 'sticking with tradition' category for him. I agree it's a bad idea. As are attributes that seem to have very-low influence for that matter.

 

[Grunker]

^ This probably falls in the 'sticking with tradition' category for him

Yeah I know. What I'm saying is that it's a very odd spot to choose to stick to tradition since even most traditionalists will agree that the move towards interesting level-ups is a positive one.

As are attributes that seem to have very-low influence for that matter.

Agreed, but I think I would be more than able to live with that if there was impactful character customization in other departments. Right now, I'm very worried that my Fighter or Wizard will end up looking an awful lot the Fighters and Wizards of everyone else. Can you comment on that Sensuki?

 

[undecaf]

Ok, just got around to test the game. Wanted to just get a hold of how things work, so I went for the ogre quest for "no surprises". So on for the beatles...

Aaand... the combat is a mess. It's been a while since the last time I played any of the IE games, but they sure as fuck weren't this hard to get a grasp of (and I'm not talking about rules or mechanics, or even the difficulty). It's really hard to tell what character is doing what, who's attacking who, or even who's where because they don't stand out from the scene when grass and shadows swallow everything (even the activity indicators on top of their heads). The controls seem unresponsive (the character don't always do what they are told to, casting AoE spells the area indicator is detached from the cursor and I have to guess whether the spell goes to the cursor or the circle...), the timers are flickery, the enemy HP values can hardly be seen, zooming doesn't zoom but adjusts the fog of war. The whole combat situation appears like a colossal clusterfuck. It's hard to observe what class is good for what when keeping track of the overall situation is this obscure. Hah. I must fucking suck, which is very much possible, or there's something really wrong there at the moment.

It'll certainly get fixed, adjusted and finetuned and all that. But shit, mang, quite a first touch....

Not despairing, though, onwards to the next beating!

 

[Infinitron]

Perhaps in this case "sticking with tradition" is an unintended side effect of a limited budget/development time for creating TONS OF CHOICES.

^ This probably falls in the 'sticking with tradition' category for him

Yeah I know. What I'm saying is that it's a very odd spot to choose to stick to tradition since even most traditionalists will agree that the move towards interesting level-ups is a positive one.

As are attributes that seem to have very-low influence for that matter.

Agreed, but I think I would be more than able to live with that if there was impactful character customization in other departments. Right now, I'm very worried that my Fighter or Wizard will end up looking an awful lot the Fighters and Wizards of everyone else. Can you comment on that Sensuki?

Keep in mind that this is the same Sawyer who reduced the perk rate from Fallout 3 to one per two levels, so you could say this is part of his MO.

 

[Grunker]

Keep in mind that this is the same Sawyer who reduced the perk rate from Fallout 3 to one per two levels, so this is part of his MO.

Honestly I felt that had a lot more to do with difficulty and balance considerations than of some design philosophy to limit choices. This is a much more belieavable explanation:

limited budget for creating TONS OF CHOICES.

My first comment after the reveal of the stretch goals was this:

Careful about promising to many classes, Obsidian. Considering the scope and budget of this project, too many classes will end up limiting design space and thus have a negative impact on design diversity rather than the positive impact multiple classes and choices is supposed to have. In other words, if you're so busy designing different classes, won't the depth of options in each class be severely limited?

I almost feel like putting on my Roguey-robe and wizard hat and declaring myself the Cassandra of our time. But then I'm not an obnoxious know-it-all and I realize that my explanation still might be incorrect. Maybe Sawyer just likes keeping customizability low. Who knows. I think your explanation is right though, and by extend, so is mine.

 

[Athelas]

I don't see why you couldn't get to choose which class abilities to take on level ups. It's Sawyer, so they should all be balanced (i.e. all similarly useful in their own way).

 

[Sensuki]

Agreed, but I think I would be more than able to live with that if there was impactful character customization in other departments. Right now, I'm very worried that my Fighter or Wizard will end up looking an awful lot the Fighters and Wizards of everyone else. Can you comment on that Sensuki?

Fighters would be pretty samey apart from the gear they used. Wizards have more variation due to the grimoire system. I think a while back, Josh talked about Pathfinder giving a choice at every level (this is aaages ago) but for some reason that decision seems to have been reversed, or at least compartmentalized into "picking skills is a choice". There's not even any attribute points every 5 levels or whatever.

 

[Grunker]

Fighters would be pretty samey apart from the gear they used. Wizards have more variation due to the grimoire system. I think a while back, Josh talked about Pathfinder giving a choice at every level (this is aaages ago) but for some reason that decision seems to have been reversed. There's not even any attribute points every 5 levels or whatever.

First very big disappointment for sure, this.

 

[Infinitron]

There's not even any attribute points every 5 levels or whatever.

How do you know?

 

[Sensuki]

There's no option for an extra attribute in the level up UI since there's only room for three panes (Skills, Abilities, Talents) and you don't get any when you level up to level 5.

Fighters would be pretty samey apart from the gear they used. Wizards have more variation due to the grimoire system. I think a while back, Josh talked about Pathfinder giving a choice at every level (this is aaages ago) but for some reason that decision seems to have been reversed. There's not even any attribute points every 5 levels or whatever.

First very big disappointment for sure, this.

I might raise this issue on the forums later on. Certainly something to note and if it's something a lot of people don't like then they might be open to tweaking it.

 

[Duraframe300]

Ok, just got around to test the game. Wanted to just get a hold of how things work, so I went for the ogre quest for "no surprises". So on for the beatles...

Aaand... the combat is a mess. It's been a while since the last time I played any of the IE games, but they sure as fuck weren't this hard to get a grasp of (and I'm not talking about rules or mechanics, or even the difficulty). It's really hard to tell what character is doing what, who's attacking who, or even who's where because they don't stand out from the scene when grass and shadows swallow everything (even the activity indicators on top of their heads). The controls seem unresponsive (the character don't always do what they are told to, casting AoE spells the area indicator is detached from the cursor and I have to guess whether the spell goes to the cursor or the circle...), the timers are flickery, the enemy HP values can hardly be seen, zooming doesn't zoom but adjusts the fog of war. The whole combat situation appears like a colossal clusterfuck. It's hard to observe what class is good for what when keeping track of the overall situation is this obscure. Hah. I must fucking suck, which is very much possible, or there's something really wrong there at the moment.

It'll certainly get fixed, adjusted and finetuned and all that. But shit, mang....

Not despairing, though, onwards to the next beating!

I wonder if the backer beta didn't start a bit too early. Theres lots about the game at the moment that can't be truly judged and not because of issues that aren't being worked on. So, giving feedback is a bit of a crapshoot.

Then again until close to release there is probably never the perfect moment.

I would really like though a more detailed list on whats being worked on/what issues are known than the one we got in the update. Was a bit too general.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

Well, it'd be nice if somebody from Obsidian could weigh in on that. 2012 was a long time ago and it'd be understandable if they axed what was ultimately a gimmick feature.

and so the great wave of excuses beginns.

It seems Obsidian is no better than Larian when it comes to keeping up promises

 

[Jezal_k23]

I'm interested in seeing how much it changes from this version to the next since I heard the most obvious stuff is already fixed.

 

[Infinitron]

I wonder if the backer beta didn't start a bit too early..

Dude, compared to some other Kickstarted games...it's pretty damn late.

Apparently, one reason Obsidian was shy of Early Access was that they weren't ready to nail certain fundamentals like movement at an early enough stage to make it acceptable to a mass audience.

Say what you will about Wasteland 2, but inXile more-or-less nailed movement and "kinaesthetics" from day one.

 

[Abu Antar]

Is no one recruiting a sixth character? I hired a chanter at the inn.

I've gottent some loot frum humanoids. cross bows, arbalests, shields, a hood and a fine hammer.

 

[Shadenuat]

There's no option for an extra attribute in the level up UI since there's only room for three panes (Skills, Abilities, Talents) and you don't get any when you level up to level 5.

How'd you compare it to, say, ToEE? At least there was multi classing, lots of skills and feats, and casters updated their slots and/or spells every level.
In PoE it seems even amount of skills won't be satisfying to play with on level up, unlike Fallout (perk/2 levels was ok in FNV imo).

 

[Raghar]

I'm quite thankful that I have access to enemy information!

Floats? They are sucking as SW engineers.

 

[Duraframe300]

I wonder if the backer beta didn't start a bit too early..

Dude, compared to some other Kickstarted games...it's pretty damn late.

Apparently, one reason Obsidian was shy of Early Access was that they weren't ready to nail certain fundamentals like movement at an early enough stage to make it acceptable to a mass audience.

Say what you will about Wasteland 2, but inXile more-or-less nailed movement and "kinaesthetics" from day one.

Yeah, but turn based.

Anyway, I meant from the perspective of the state of PoE('s systems) alone. Theres a lot to fix/implent/correct that they are fully aware of and just hinders our ability to give accurate feedback.

That's not a compliment.