Pillars is 10/10 GOTY would back again and anyone who disagrees is an edgelord or burnout

[ArchAngel]

ArchAngel as I said, I'm doing my best. I went over with what I've said here and can't think of any way to make it clearer (see #58 in particular). If that's not clear enough for you, then I think we're SOL.

That post proves nothing.
I have told you that people in D&D follow Gods because they represent ideals those people uphold to. Just because PoE has some NPCs that go into more details about their beliefs it does not mean D&D system is any worse. Also PoE has plenty of random cultists that attack on sight and act like animals and are no different than any D&D Bane or Cyric followers.

What you describe in that post is about those two characters being more interesting, and nothing to do about religion.

 

[Prime Junta]

ArchAngel

(1) What ideals do Umberlee or Talos represent? Why would anyone follow them? Propitiate them out of fear, yes, but follow?
(2) I have specifically been arguing that IRL -- and in P:E -- people follow gods/religions for far more complex reasons than that. They don't page through a list of gods and go "Hmm, I like hard work, law, and order, so Clangeddin looks right for me." But in D&D, as you say, they do just that -- and it's dumb.

 

[Immortal]

ArchAngel

(2) I have specifically been arguing that IRL -- and in P:E -- people follow gods/religions for far more complex reasons than that. They don't page through a list of gods and go "Hmm, I like hard work, law, and order, so Clangeddin looks right for me." But in D&D, as you say, they do just that -- and it's dumb.

This isn't the issue with deities.. People in DnD know they exist.. They pick gods based on how their sphere of dominance relates to the person's own attitude because there's no question that Gods exist and that there are multiple of them. If we lived in a world where multiple deities exist that affect the world and when we die we will be stuck with them for eternity, that's exactly how I would choose a religion.

The issue is, why the hell is there a wall of the faithless.. Who the hell would be atheist in Forgotten Realms.


Also.. at highlighted part..

 

[Hatred]

He is claiming that most people once they hit adulthood lose all real faith and just follow religion because of their culture.
I agree with that.

No, I'm not.

Hatred I re-read that and honestly don't see what's so hard to understand about it. Someone claimed that people only follow a religion because of reward/punishment. I replied that that's not so: while reward/punishment may play a role in getting people to act according to their religion (although social pressure is FAR! more important), it has very little to do with getting someone to adhere in the first place.

um ok well I guess I will explain why it doesn't make sense.
"Reward/punishment does play a role in motivating people to act in ways in accordance with their religion " This part makes me think that you are saying carrot/stick teachings make people behave in accordance to their religon. " (although most people pass that stage of ethical maturity some time around when they hit adulthood) " This bit says everygone grows out of this (which is a fkn huge and confusing statement just on its own). So everyone behaves according to the teachings of their religon untill they become adults and mysteriously wise up and stop needing a carrot/stick when becoming adults? They keep on following the rules because .... they are more mature now ? I really don't know what you are trying to attribute peoples following of religious rules to. Or if you are saying that carrot/stick doesnt work on adults.
" but it's not very important in getting them to adhere in the first place (except perhaps Christianity)." This bit doesn't make sense either. All religions which I know about have carrot and stick. How can you claim that carrot/stick is mostly irrelevant if the only religions which actually have followers all have carrot and stick.

3.Fundies (prestige class): well, these are mostly deranged people who embrace a religion to the core and beyond that, with he results we all know.

If you are going to follow a religion it makes more sense to do it seriously. If there really is a god I reckon he/she/it/them would be more pissed off by half ass believers than they would be with atheists. The most deranged people are the half ass religious folk imo.

Sorry I only worked out how to insert quotes while making this message

 

[Prime Junta]

Hatred It's pretty widely accepted that people go through stages of moral development. "Don't steal because you'll get punished" is the earliest stage. A promise of heaven/hell only factors into it for people at this level of moral development. Most outgrow it in their teens at the latest. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development ]

(Some don't, of course. Psychopaths and sociopaths never make it past stage 2, "what's in it for me.")

So yeah, adults behave morally because of an internalized sense of right and wrong, and follow the tenets of their religion because those too have been internalized, and are reinforced by social pressure.

All(?) religions have carrots and sticks, true. What I'm saying is, a few exceptions aside, they don't use the carrots and sticks to entice people to adhere. They use them to get people already adhering to conform, and that to a much more limited extent than you appear to be claiming. Not the same thing. Christianity with its nulla salus ex ecclesiam only through the blood of the redeemer nonsense is an exception.

(Which is more deranged, identifying with a religion out of habit or blowing shit up in the name of God, is another discussion entirely and not one I'm interested in having at this point. Although it does say something about you if you find the latter to "make more sense...")

 

[ArchAngel]

ArchAngel

(1) What ideals do Umberlee or Talos represent? Why would anyone follow them? Propitiate them out of fear, yes, but follow?
(2) I have specifically been arguing that IRL -- and in P:E -- people follow gods/religions for far more complex reasons than that. They don't page through a list of gods and go "Hmm, I like hard work, law, and order, so Clangeddin looks right for me." But in D&D, as you say, they do just that -- and it's dumb.

(1) Umberlee is a goddess of waters and oceans, people whose lives depend upon that pray to her because their culture has taught them that is what they must do. When someone dies on waters, the priest of Umberlee does not really know if Umberlee killed that person for being of weak faith but will say so to the village people (just like priests do in our world). The whole thing is not much different. Now if you are asking why priests follow Umberlee, that is for certain different between each of them. Some might be chosen and feel pride, some want power through service, some have a family tradition. Some might believe their culture is directly connected with the sea and only in that way they can survive and so on.
(2) Commoners follow whatever God is most popular in their area just like in RL. Those are usually connected with priests of those Gods that have been useful to the local population for generations. In RL it is actually more often done through fear (Islam limited your rights if you were not of right faith), while in D&D priests have real power and can get local population to become followers through generations just by demonstrating those powers.

And when you say RL is more complex, I don't agree. Have you known true faith so you can say these things?
You sound like an Atheist Warrior.

 

[Prime Junta]

And when you say RL is more complex, I don't agree. Have you known true faith so you can say these things?
You sound like an Atheist Warrior.

That's odd because I don't identify as an atheist, and certainly not with the atheist/skeptic movement revolving around Saint Richard of Dawkins and gang.

I also don't know what you mean by "true faith" so I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you're asking if I've ever been a devout follower of a religion, then the answer is yes, yes I have, by most common-sense definitions (and if I'm lapsed now, that's a failing of mine, not the religion's).

 

[Kuurth]

Stop doing drugs, the game was average.

 

[ArchAngel]

And when you say RL is more complex, I don't agree. Have you known true faith so you can say these things?
You sound like an Atheist Warrior.

That's odd because I don't identify as an atheist, and certainly not with the atheist/skeptic movement revolving around Saint Richard of Dawkins and gang.

I also don't know what you mean by "true faith" so I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you're asking if I've ever been a devout follower of a religion, then the answer is yes, yes I have, by most common-sense definitions (and if I'm lapsed now, that's a failing of mine, not the religion's).

True faith means you truly believed in God, not just went to Church and did the motions like everyone else. Did you ever feel such faith that you felt it was your duty towards your God to spread it to others around you?
Did you have an unexplained miracle happen to you?
My wife and her mother had all that and as an atheist I had a very close chance to see how people of true faith act and behave and think. For example my wife was genuinely sad that we will not be together in heaven once we die because I will be going to hell.

 

[Doktor Best]

Wtf? She actually thinks god will send you to hell despite the fact that youre a good person because you dont believe in him? How can people think so low of their god?

Hell was a concept to frighten people into paying them moniez in middle age. It should be wiped out in modern Religions.

 

[Prime Junta]

True faith means you truly believed in God, not just went to Church and did the motions like everyone else. Did you ever feel such faith that you felt it was your duty towards your God to spread it to others around you?

I practiced Buddhism. That's not really big on God, and doesn't do any missionary work at all. So no to all that.

I meditated a half-hour every day, went to the temple every week and for a whole day every month, recited sutras (I bet I can still do a pretty badass maha-prajnaparamita-hrdaya), pored over the teachings (I <3 Vasubandhu), made prostrations to the Buddha, wore a robe, took vows, took on a ceremonial role at the temple, and went on retreats where I did that several days straight. And I had some profoundly moving experiences. Does that count?

Did you have an unexplained miracle happen to you?

Define "miracle." I've had several experiences I can't explain, but no statues-of-the-virgin-weeping-tears-of-blood, afflictions miraculously healed, or such.

My wife and her mother had all that and as an atheist I had a very close chance to see how people of true faith act and behave and think. For example my wife was genuinely sad that we will not be together in heaven once we die because I will be going to hell.

I have similarly devout people close to me, although not from those flavors of Christianity which are big on hell-for-the-unbelievers.

 

[Hatred]

and that to a much more limited extent than you appear to be claiming.

I made no claims at all.

Which is more deranged, identifying with a religion out of habit or blowing shit up in the name of God, is another discussion entirely and not one I'm interested in having at this point. Although it does say something about you if you find the latter to "make more sense..."

You are putting words into my mouth again. I think following a religion in a half ass way is stupid. This does not equate to thinking its cool to blow people up for your god. I know the bible well enough to know that as insane as it might be (and as totally screwed up as the old testament was) it certainly doesn't advocate blowing stuff up. I'm even remotely certain that the Koran doesn't say that. I know Hindu teachings don't say it too.
So you can fuck right off with your "following a religious seriously = blowing up the enemies of your god". The Bible says a fair bit about not killing people. You still see Christians in armies willingly shooting at people though (funny how the Bible Belt are so big on gun ownership, I am sure Jesus would just fkn LOVE guns). So I call anyone who follows a religion out of habit a hypocritical piece of self serving cowardly shit. Someone who at least makes a fair go of it and actually tries to follow the Bible is a much better person IMO. I've literally met two people like that though. Met hundreds of bullshit Christians though.

 

[Hatred]

So yeah, adults behave morally because of an internalized sense of right and wrong, and follow the tenets of their religion because those too have been internalized, and are reinforced by social pressure.

This isn't quite in line with the web page you linked me. I also question that this model is widely accepted. I imagine this model is widely accepted the same way PoE is widely thought of as a shit game. By a quite small quantity of people amongst a small quantity of people (so right now it seems like less than 30% of 'dexers would fund another KS for PoE because its so good I also guess that its just some percentage of Uni students who accept this).
Idk how I feel about it because I haven't really read much about it (wiki page is ok for a general idea about things but not really a good place to stop if you want an informed opinion) before you go putting words into my mouth about my opinion on the matter. The quote about how people theorize that most people dont get past stage 3/4 is pretty depressing. I feel instinctively inclined to not really think of any of the steps 1-4 as actually being a proper set of morals which perhaps is why I feel most people don't in fact have morals but just a set of habits loosely based of a moral system which they pass off as morals because of reasons.
Overall it seems like a very complicated way to say "If you don't think for yourself and if you don't put effort into your thinking you will probably have shitty morals"

 

[Prime Junta]

Oh, Hatred, Hatred.

The Bible, 1 Sam. 15, 1-3:

And Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

The Qur'an, 005.033:

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Krishna's advice to Arjuna, from the Bhagavad Gita:

Considering also your duty as a warrior you should not waver like this. Because there is nothing more auspicious for a warrior than a righteous war. (2.31)

Only the fortunate warriors, O Arjuna, get such an opportunity for an unsought war that is like an open door to heaven. (2.32)

If you will not fight this righteous war, then you will fail in your duty, lose your reputation, and incur sin. (2.33)

People will talk about your disgrace forever. To the honored, dishonor is worse than death. (2.34)

The great warriors will think that you have retreated from the battle out of fear. Those who have greatly esteemed you will lose respect for you. (2.35)

Your enemies will speak many unmentionable words and scorn your ability. What could be more painful to you than this? (2.36)

You will go to heaven if killed on the line of duty, or you will enjoy the kingdom on the earth if victorious. Therefore, get up with a determination to fight, O Arjuna. (2.37)

Consider my "blowing shit up" quip withdrawn. I was taking issue with your apparent equation of fundamentalism with doing religion "properly," and the implication that someone who isn't a fundamentalist is doing it in a "half-assed way." This I disagree with vehemently: the depth of someone's commitment to his religion (which I consider "doing religion properly") has nothing to do with the rigidity of his beliefs, viz. fundamentalism.

 

[Hatred]

All you are doing with your quotes is convincing me that people who follow those religions are insane. I already thought that though. I was under the impression that Samuel was Old Testament and that the Christians were supposed to follow the new one? Idk I mostly just think religious people are insane as above stated and never really put too much effort into reading their really quite difficult to read texts.
Edit : yeah being a vegetarian and hanging out with the hare krsna people in my home city from time to time had actually led me to believe those guys were super peaceful like. I never really looked into it though.

 

[Lhynn]

Fallout 3 handled religion much better than poe.

 

[Prime Junta]

Hatred Any definition of "insane" which includes the vast majority of people is diluted past the point of usefulness IMO.

Yes, Samuel is OT, but the OT is very much a part of the Christian canon. Here's everybody's favorite televangelist, Pat Robertson, on that passage:

The wars of extermination have given a lot of people trouble unless they know what was going on. The people in the land of Palestine were very wicked. They were given over to idolatry; they sacrificed their children; they had all kinds of abominable sex practices; they were having sex, apparently, with animals; they were having sex men with men, and women with women; they were committing adultery, fornication; they were worshipping idols, offering their children up; and they were forsaking God. God told the Israelites to kill them all - men, women and children, to destroy them. And that seems to be a terrible thing to do. Is it? Or isn't it? Well, let us assume there were 2,000 of them, or 10,000 of them living in the land, or whatever number there was of them. I don't have the exact number. Pick a number. God said, 'Kill them all.' Well, that would seem hard, wouldn't it? That would be 10,000 people who would probably go to Hell. But, if they stayed and reproduced, in 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 100 more years, they could conceivably be - 10,000 would go to a 100,000 - 100,000 could conceivably go to a million. And then, there would be a million people who would have to spend eternity in Hell! And it's far more merciful to take away a few than to see in the future a 100 years down the road, and say, 'Well, I have to take away a million people that would forever be apart from God,' because the abomination was there like a contagium. God saw that there was no cure for it. It wasn't going to change; their hearts weren't going to change; and all they would do is cause trouble for the Israelites, and pull the Israelites away from God, and prevent the truth of God from reaching the Earth. So, God, in love, took away a small number that he might not have to take away a large number.

 

[Atchodas]

This thread proves that PoE is not 10/10

 

[Hatred]

Hatred Any definition of "insane" which includes the vast majority of people is diluted past the point of usefulness IMO.

Well I do think that anyone who isn't an aspiring rationalist is not sane. Surely the stupid things people have done since we have been recording stupid things is proof enough ?
Edit : I am not trying to be useful so much as I strive to not say things which are woefully inaccurate. I should actually with that goal in mind just dismiss religious people as insane and strive not to talk about it since I don't plan on studying all of the worlds religions just so I can talk about them.
Edit 2: I am still pretty sure new is supposed to trump old though. So if jesus says in the new testament to not go killing people then it overrides what the OT says you can do. ? I don't know this is a question.

 

[Shevek]

This thread proves that PoE is not 10/10

Does it?

 

[Prime Junta]

Edit 2: I am still pretty sure new is supposed to trump old though. So if jesus says in the new testament to not go killing people then it overrides what the OT says you can do. ? I don't know this is a question.

It's not as simple as that. In Islam, that is the way it works: later revelations supersede previous ones. With Christianity it gets really messy. The most common interpretation is that the Christ's sacrifice released his followers from having to adhere to Mosaic law, in particular ritual law -- stuff like the bits about mixing fabrics, not eating pork, not lighting fires on the Shabbat, and so on. On the other hand, there's this bit (Matt 5:17-19) which is considered fairly crucial:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

It's only Biblical literalists (which is a relatively recent variety of Christianity which originated in America) who have real trouble with this actually. Everybody else has found ways of coping with the contraditions.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Did you come up with edgelord? It's pr. great, probably the best thing about this thread really.

 

[Lhynn]

Did you come up with edgelord? It's pr. great, probably the best thing about this thread really.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=edgelord

 

[Lady_Error]

Stop doing drugs, the game was average.

If it's better than the vast majority of derpy popamole "games" that keep coming out, then it is way above average.

 

[Lhynn]

Stop doing drugs, the game was average.

If it's better than the vast majority of derpy popamole "games" that keep coming out, then it is way above average.

Oh, yeah, lets compare this bullshit to a bigger piece of turd, it will surely look better! Fuck, i miss your tag some days.

PoE stands in that line between incline or decline, exactly in a point of perfect irrelevance. Its not helped by the fact that the game is boring as fuck.