KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[spectre]

I think it's rather hard to marry lovecraftian and futuristic aesthetic (another problem being, PP also seems to want to throw post-apocalypse into the mix, further muddling it down). If anything, it would take an exceptional designer at the helm to pull this off.
Thought about having another go at the game, with all the DLC turned off to see how it works without as much clutter, but I'm not too keen on slogging through the early missions again.
What occurred to me in the process is that after the exposition slides, the game just drops you in the middle of things. There's actually plenty of lovecraftian shit happening during the starting slides, but
you sorta waltz past it instead of getting a more hands-on experience. I think it would be better for the game's atmosphere if you could actually take some part in this. E.g. have a mission in which you investigate
people slowly vanishing into the mist or being drawn into the sea.

I gave up struggling with the harder difficulties and I'm just doing it on Rookie, which is actually quite comfortable - it's not much different in terms of the combat mechanics from the harder difficulties (fewer enemies, though not much) - mainly the difference is that the strategic layer is more relaxed, so you actually get a chance to build up some substantial forces and play with all the toys, and the DLC stuff isn't overwhelming. I'd considered playing the game au naturel before trying out the DLCs, but life's too short.

The only thing higher difficulty levels do, in my opinion, is force tons of unnecessary grind to actually levelup your guys. Given how early game is a slog, yeah, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable not to subject yourself to this.
Otoh, progression is a bit too fast on the easiest difficulty, so find a sweet spot that works for you.

Well, I wish it was functional! Last time I played there was no option for customized sorting and filtering of equipment, instead we got some buttons for per-class filtering while in reality any class can wield any weapon. And that is not only user-unfriendly but actively hides the gameplay feature.

This. I only learnt it from the wiki by reading that non-heavy classes can use jump jets with a chance to fumble. Huh, so the armors are not exclusive then?

 

[7h30n]

Huh, so the armors are not exclusive then?

They weren't last time I played, and they actually had nice trade offs when making various class-equipment combinations.

 

[gurugeorge]

The mechanics are a cargo cult from X-COM and Apocalypse and the visual presentation of XCOM, and the reality is that they shouldnt be trying to blindly transplant mechanics from other games and trying to make them work on their premise. The premise is Cthulhu monsters are coming from the sea to wipe out humanity, when I think on Cthulhu monsters, I think on psychological/cosmic horror, that was their premise that they didnt deliver because instead of making mechanics for it, they gone with safe and just copy pasted mechanics and graphic styles from other games. It is a pity because I can think on alot of mechanics to include shit on the pants psychological horror on a X-COM style game.

It was the same problem of CDPR with Cyberbug where they just copy pasted the mechanics of the Witcha 3 without thinking how that would translate to an urban enviroment.

I think maybe part of it was that they were under pressure to have that psychological horror but also have modular aliens who could evolve.

For the psychological horror, you need the enemies to be distinct nightmares. I mean, if you think of how the enemies are introduced in XCOM, each enemy type comes as a shock, each introduction of them nearly wipes your team, and each new enemy introduction makes you think "OMG, how the hell am I going to cope with THAT? THAT'S SO UNFAIR!!!" The thin men, the lids, the shapeshifter in XCOM2, etc., etc. All that psychological element is missing.

I think a big problem here is that for this system they needed something with a few body types that could mutate, so the parts had to be modular in some sense. So ideally, each writhing horror would have been mutating into an even more writhing horror.

I think they probably could have done it a) if, as I said, they had a higher-level art designer (the artist in this isn't a bad artist, s/he's very skilled, but it's just not striking art, it's generic), and b) if they'd had more time to figure how to work modularity in with each enemy being a unique horror. But I think they were too much under the cosh for time.

But thinking about it, maybe there just is a fundamental clash between the idea of adaptive mutation and the idea of unique, terrifying writhing horrors. Maybe the Lovecraft idea and the adaptation idea just don't mix well, at the end of the day? I dunno, I feel I can vaguely imagine how they might have been melded, but I think they just didn't have enough time to brainstorm it properly.

 

[gurugeorge]

Sorry I keep rabbiting on about this game, but it's such a fascinating case of "close, but no cigar."

I think the developers' intent was probably that with the higher difficulties, you're supposed to forget the idea of being a "good guy" who's trying to hold it all together and instead beeline to allying with one faction exclusively, in order to urgently save the species, and just throw the other two in the dumpster. That would make sense then, of the idea of nicking aeroplanes and tech from the other two groups to accelerate your progress from early to mid game (one of the big "cheese" complaints in the community atm, because the consequences for raiding and theft seem relatively light diplomatically). Then I can see how it might be possible to keep level with the aliens eventually through mid to late game.

Has anybody managed to stay on good terms with the three factions and progress quickly enough at the same time, on the two highest difficulties? I feel they do need to keep the "good guy" option open via some particular kind of diplomacy channel, but again, maybe they just didn't have the time to do it properly - some kind of channel where you make it explicit to all three at the story level (at some key point) that you want them to unite against the current threat maybe?

 

[ArchAngel]

Sorry I keep rabbiting on about this game, but it's such a fascinating case of "close, but no cigar."

I think the developers' intent was probably that with the higher difficulties, you're supposed to forget the idea of being a "good guy" who's trying to hold it all together and instead beeline to allying with one faction exclusively, in order to urgently save the species, and just throw the other two in the dumpster. That would make sense then, of the idea of nicking aeroplanes and tech from the other two groups to accelerate your progress from early to mid game (one of the big "cheese" complaints in the community atm, because the consequences for raiding and theft seem relatively light diplomatically). Then I can see how it might be possible to keep level with the aliens eventually through mid to late game.

Has anybody managed to stay on good terms with the three factions and progress quickly enough at the same time, on the two highest difficulties? I feel they do need to keep the "good guy" option open via some particular kind of diplomacy channel, but again, maybe they just didn't have the time to do it properly - some kind of channel where you make it explicit to all three at the story level (at some key point) that you want them to unite against the current threat maybe?

From my knowledge it is more like "we wanted a lot, but real life hit us on the head".

 

[spectre]

They weren't last time I played, and they actually had nice trade offs when making various class-equipment combinations.

Yeah, I know it now. As you said, the UI actually misleads you on this, which is one hell of a red flag.
I tend to go along with all kinds of fucked up GUIs (I mean, I managed to learn some Blender at one point in my life), so you won't catch me complaining too much about these things, but a spade needs to be called a spade.

Sorry I keep rabbiting on about this game, but it's such a fascinating case of "close, but no cigar."

I feel ya, had almost exactly the same experience with Old World where I would repeatedly say: "fuck this thing" and uninstall, then install it once again for another go.
It's as if a part of me wants to make sure I'm not missing anything, because they actually managed to do a lot of things well, and the pieces to make a good game seem to be all there.
Same with this. It's funny how PP's ballistic system, 4AP, doing away with the spawn-pod-nonsense and upping the squad size managed to fix so much bullshit from EXCUM.

I'm close to reinstalling openxcom, just to see if I'm not having a bad case of nostalgia glasses. Not sure if I have the patience to go through with TFTD's shipping route nonsense,
but a quick refresher of Ufo Defense might be nice.

 

[Trithne]

If the game was simply shit, we would call it shit and move on.

Nothing is more annoying than a game that gets it almost right, but stumbles at the end.

 

[DeepOcean]

Also paranoia, it would be cool to lose some of your soldiers because of mutation the Thing style, you know, the guys seem normal then you start having reports of sabotages on bases with you having to get more and more draconian measures to get rid of mutated traitors with major hits to morale.

At some point, you would start wondering if a call for help is genuine or a trap by the Pandora virus trying to mess with your head and allied soldier or even your own turning hostile at any point, especially on bases covered by the fog, in the end you might not be able to even trust your own soldiers. I know it would be hard to balance and most carebears would be annoyed with losing their super power rangers but you know, there was no way this game would make alot of money releasing as an Epic exclusive, if Epic was paying for it, why not going riskier on the mechanics?

 

[gurugeorge]

It's starting to get pretty intense with all the stuff going on lol - a lot of things to juggle in one's mind.

The multi-classing is great - I haven't got access to the Infiltrator or Priest or Technican yet (though I've got one of each and they'll soon be able to multiclass), but even just multi-classing between the three main classes is good fun. Haven't yet gotten to the stage of deeper tech (only just on the 25 point diplomacy level with all three factions atm).

I've got 4 bases with radars dotted around near mist patches, all transportable-between, 2 teams and 2 Manticores, with some people leveling up for a third team. Currently aiming for another Manticore, and my Doomsday clock's between a fifth and a sixth down. With this many soldiers I'm starting to feel the need for QOL tweaks with inventory, as many have been saying. While the customization level isn't as good as the XCOMs, it's good enough so that you can invest each soldier with a bit of personality and "get to know them."

Some of the problems we've been discussing (like the generic art design and lack of any really scary atmosphere) are so baked-in they're unsolvable, but I can definitely see the team pretty much finishing and polishing the game if they stick to it for another year or so, and it being a "flawed gem" type of game in most peoples' estimation eventually. The gameplay really is quite solid for the most part.

Re mods, the game does actually have a few useful mods, although mod production has tailed off recently and most of them are really out of date. I've got the Modnix loader with "Skip Intro" and the all-purpose "Assorted Adjustments" which has a few minor gameplay-affecting tweaks (like adding a seventh soldier to the Manticore), but mainly a whole bunch of nice little UI and QOL tweaks - all totally switch-on-and-offable. I've also got the in-theory powerful PPDefModifier loaded in case something useful that uses it comes up, but I haven't yet found a use for it. These are the only mods I've found that are up to date and/or don't give runtime errors - there are quite a few on Nexus that look interesting, but they haven't been updated in ages.

It's a long-ass game with a lot of stuff to do.

 

[Thorgeim]

I'm close to reinstalling openxcom, just to see if I'm not having a bad case of nostalgia glasses. Not sure if I have the patience to go through with TFTD's shipping route nonsense,
but a quick refresher of Ufo Defense might be nice.

This is what I've done last year after nothing really coming close to old Xcoms, openxcom with the "normal" tweaks but not TFTD, I like to play Ufo defense a bit more, not sure why maybe because it was one of the first games of this type I played when I was young.
Anyway, its still awesome, still gives the feels and is great to play and with modern PCs I just click the shortcut on my desktop and I can be in game on my last save literally within 3 seconds I know its obvious but i still remember having to run this from ms-dos.

 

[Jaedar]

Has anybody managed to stay on good terms with the three factions and progress quickly enough at the same time, on the two highest difficulties? I feel they do need to keep the "good guy" option open via some particular kind of diplomacy channel, but again, maybe they just didn't have the time to do it properly - some kind of channel where you make it explicit to all three at the story level (at some key point) that you want them to unite against the current threat maybe?

It's trivial to max reputation with all three factions. I'd even say it's a struggle to get one to hostile, because you get so much rep from doing defenses/base assaults, and you MUST do them or you get a game over due to population deficiency. You might manage to piss of a particular base, but not the faction as a whole.

It's a long-ass game with a lot of stuff to do.

just wait till you get to the endgame grind of unlocking the final missions and the bigger alien bases.

 

[Parabalus]

Has anybody managed to stay on good terms with the three factions and progress quickly enough at the same time, on the two highest difficulties? I feel they do need to keep the "good guy" option open via some particular kind of diplomacy channel, but again, maybe they just didn't have the time to do it properly - some kind of channel where you make it explicit to all three at the story level (at some key point) that you want them to unite against the current threat maybe?

That's pretty much what happens if you're winning, all factions at 100ish.

just wait till you get to the endgame grind of unlocking the final missions and the bigger alien bases.

In my experience it gets grind after a citadel or two, when you're doing the final researches. At that point the sane thing to do is to ignore missions until the final one, too many pop up.

 

[Jaedar]

In my experience it gets grind after a citadel or two, when you're doing the final researches. At that point the sane thing to do is to ignore missions until the final one, too many pop up.

I quit the game after doing my first citadel. The 2nd tier of alien base was already massively annoying to clear.

I think the game also kinda lacks good lategame research. There's no real equivalent to psi/blaster bombs, iirc even the final weapons feel a bit like sidegrades. Which is cool in a way, but also a bit disappointing when half your squad are using weapons you first looted week 2.

 

[Parabalus]

In my experience it gets grind after a citadel or two, when you're doing the final researches. At that point the sane thing to do is to ignore missions until the final one, too many pop up.

I quit the game after doing my first citadel. The 2nd tier of alien base was already massively annoying to clear.

I think the game also kinda lacks good lategame research. There's no real equivalent to psi/blaster bombs, iirc even the final weapons feel a bit like sidegrades. Which is cool in a way, but also a bit disappointing when half your squad are using weapons you first looted week 2.

They definitely feel like sidegrades, but they are all huge improvements. The real final weapons are straight up upgrades.

Easiest way to clear 2nd tier is to have everyone but one/two guy/s stay at the entrance where the evacuation is, rest zips and destroys the spawnery's egg pods. Takes just a few turns.

 

[Jaedar]

They definitely feel like sidegrades, but they are all huge improvements. The real final weapons are straight up upgrades.

If you say so. It's been a while since I played but I definitely remember assaut rifles, shotguns and heavy weapons having very anemic upgrades. Not that heavy weapons need anything better than a flamethrower...

 

[cvv]

It's trivial to max reputation with all three factions. I'd even say it's a struggle to get one to hostile, because you get so much rep from doing defenses/base assaults, and you MUST do them or you get a game over due to population deficiency. You might manage to piss of a particular base, but not the faction as a whole.

So it's fine to do all the missions where independent factions ask you to attack one of the three main ones? I had the "Father" asking me to dump on the religitards and the supersoldier dude asking me to whack New Jericho. I passed them up bc of the possible consequences.

 

[Jaedar]

It's trivial to max reputation with all three factions. I'd even say it's a struggle to get one to hostile, because you get so much rep from doing defenses/base assaults, and you MUST do them or you get a game over due to population deficiency. You might manage to piss of a particular base, but not the faction as a whole.

So it's fine to do all the missions where independent factions ask you to attack one of the three main ones? I had the "Father" asking me to dump on the religitards and the supersoldier dude asking me to whack New Jericho. I passed them up bc of the possible consequences.

It's fine. Iirc they tend to be some of the hardest missions, but iirc they don't even give negative rep.

 

[Parabalus]

They definitely feel like sidegrades, but they are all huge improvements. The real final weapons are straight up upgrades.

If you say so. It's been a while since I played but I definitely remember assaut rifles, shotguns and heavy weapons having very anemic upgrades. Not that heavy weapons need anything better than a flamethrower...

IIRC the flamethrower was straight up bugged and oneshot everything, think it's fixed.

 

[ArchAngel]

It's a long-ass game with a lot of stuff to do.

just wait till you get to the endgame grind of unlocking the final missions and the bigger alien bases.

This was sped up in latest patch.

 

[ArchAngel]

It's trivial to max reputation with all three factions. I'd even say it's a struggle to get one to hostile, because you get so much rep from doing defenses/base assaults, and you MUST do them or you get a game over due to population deficiency. You might manage to piss of a particular base, but not the faction as a whole.

So it's fine to do all the missions where independent factions ask you to attack one of the three main ones? I had the "Father" asking me to dump on the religitards and the supersoldier dude asking me to whack New Jericho. I passed them up bc of the possible consequences.

They are nice for variety.

 

[JDR13]

I finally broke down and got it.

If anyone else is on the fence, Gamesplanet is doing a flash sale right now for $13.99 - https://us.gamesplanet.com/game/phoenix-point-year-one-edition-steam-key--4866-1?ref=cheapshark

 

[gurugeorge]

I like the concept of the Ancients' weapons - going into the "antediluvian" past and archeology for the super high tech instead of the future is a nice twist, and it hints at a deep past that's reminiscent of the Lovecraftian lore.

The earlier "living" weapons and armor are quite a tasty little upgrade for the A team when they come in too.

I restarted on Veteran, got to about the same place again. I think you do have to restart this game a few times before you really get your head into the systems and the flow of the gameplay (on both levels). It's different enough to be its own thing that you have to learn.

 

[cvv]

I restarted on Veteran, got to about the same place again. I think you do have to restart this game a few times before you really get your head into the systems and the flow of the gameplay (on both levels). It's different enough to be its own thing that you have to learn.

I'm on my 1st run ever, Veteran. What made you stop the last time? What's to watch out for?

 

[samuraigaiden]

Also paranoia, it would be cool to lose some of your soldiers because of mutation the Thing style, you know, the guys seem normal then you start having reports of sabotages on bases with you having to get more and more draconian measures to get rid of mutated traitors with major hits to morale.

At some point, you would start wondering if a call for help is genuine or a trap by the Pandora virus trying to mess with your head and allied soldier or even your own turning hostile at any point, especially on bases covered by the fog, in the end you might not be able to even trust your own soldiers. I know it would be hard to balance and most carebears would be annoyed with losing their super power rangers but you know, there was no way this game would make alot of money releasing as an Epic exclusive, if Epic was paying for it, why not going riskier on the mechanics?

Jagged Alliance 1 has this (sorta). One of the mercs you can hire is a psycho who'll kill your other mercs in their sleep, one at a time. It's great.

 

[gurugeorge]

I restarted on Veteran, got to about the same place again. I think you do have to restart this game a few times before you really get your head into the systems and the flow of the gameplay (on both levels). It's different enough to be its own thing that you have to learn.

I'm on my 1st run ever, Veteran. What made you stop the last time? What's to watch out for?

Oh it's just that I'd posted earlier that I was playing on Rookie to get the hang of things. I wanted to quickly get a sense of the toys coming up towards the start of the mid-game, but it was getting a bit too easy, so I've started again on Vet, which I think is nicely balanced as a "Normal" setting.

The only difference from Rookie so far as I can tell is that there are like one or two more mobs on Vet, things are tighter at the strategic layer (so you have to actually think about priority in what you want to research and manufacture, and you have to hang on to old hand-me-down equipment, not just reflexively build every shiny new thing for everyone) and you're seeing more and more nasty variants earlier, i.e. the aliens evolve a bit faster. The actual bread-and-butter battlescape gameplay in terms of damages, accuracy, etc., seems to be the same.

The game's mostly good, jump in, but be warned it's VERY NOT XCOM. It really isn't AT ALL like XCOM except in the most superficial looks and UI sense. The real LOS and bullet modelling changes everything, and it takes a wee bit of getting used to - particularly the way cover works (you have to think of it as symmetrical to what you see when you see mobs in cover and you can still plink away at bits of them sticking out; so basically cover isn't a hard percentage reduction like in XCOM, and actually being out of sight is more impoertant (i.e. shooting, ducking back out of sight, which there are usually enough TUs to do). One wishes there was some more detail there, like crouching/prone commands, "hug cover" (for full cover) or "hunker down" (for half cover) command, etc., but it's serviceable as is.

Also the way overwatch works (you get a sort of red "flashligh" painting a LOS cone in front of you, and the length/width of it is adjustable, which is really important - key thing is to not clip the side of something that the mob may be coming around (into LOS, otherwise you'll uselessly hit the edge of the wall or whatever as the mob is hoving into view), and not to extend the overwatch cone any more than you absolutely need to. Also, because the overwatch cone is like a flashlight, it shows you on the ground the shadows of areas where you won't hit).

It's really quite well done and makes the gameplay endlessly variable and engaging, and makes positioning really fine-grained. The model also encourages you to, e.g., shoot limbs that do nasty things off,disable weapons, etc., all that works very well.