Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous has sold a million copies - A stellar or abysmal performance?

[Grauken]

Superhero movies have been big for a long time

Define long time, because they sure weren't big before 2000 (yes, there were outliers like some of the old Superman movies or the Keaton Batman, but they sure weren't dominant at the box office)

 

[Jarmaro]

you *can* sell non standard settings. but there's a reason planescape, arcanum, bloodlines, and so much else become cult classics while wrath and bg3 become mainstream gotys in the genre. it's not that the bar is lowered for 'medieval fantasy'. it's that any game set there has 80+ years of marketing built into our culture, from robin hood to lotr to D&D and beyond.

I thought about such things a lot while reading fantasy fiction, eventually I arrived to conclusion that Fantasy with its general cliches allows for more compelling writing techniques and more focus on individual characters. Across all stories, some thing are simply more compelling to readers than others, such as focus on specific characters. Writing a story following a group of people would be far more difficult than writing one following a solo protagonist.In Fantasy, you can easily write a story about X character and his ability to be a great swordsman. Easy, instantly understood, with obvious marks of character and his power. Doing the same with Sci-fi setting would be more difficult. You know what sci-fi setting became popular by incorporating fantasy cliches and marks of easily understood power and ability? Star Wars.

I actually disagree about Bloodlines being an unpopular setting, vampires are extremely popular...for the right demographic. YA literature for women is strongly focused on modern paranormal fantasy set in urban setting, instead of classic Fantasy. Because it allows for easily understood and compelling character dynamics that instantly translate to reader's engagement with the story.

 

[Desiderius]

Superhero movies have been big for a long time

Define long time, because they sure weren't big before 2000 (yes, there were outliers like some of the old Superman movies or the Keaton Batman, but they sure weren't dominant at the box office)

They did well. Rambo/Rocky/Indiana Jones superhero adjacent.

As for why they weren't dominant see above. I used to got to a couple movies a month. Haven't been in three years now.

 

[Tyranicon]

Romance is a red herring, men want harems.

 

[Delterius]

YA literature for women

Like, again, this only matters in so far as it inspires devs. The zeitgeist remains dominated by sword and sorcery nonetheless because that's what's familiar.

 

[Roguey]

The reason why capes didn't dominate movies until the 10s is because of Disney's acquisition of Marvel in the late 00s. WB was always trying since 78's Superman, but their executives are a bunch of fuck-ups (still are). Fox also made an attempt with X-Men, Daredevil, and Fantastic Four but also fucked up (gradually losing all three). Disney had the characters, the ambition, and the budget to release a movie (and then multiple movies) every year.

 

[lukaszek]

The reason why capes didn't dominate movies until the 10s is because of Disney's acquisition of Marvel in the late 00s. WB was always trying since 78's Superman, but their executives are a bunch of fuck-ups (still are). Fox also made an attempt with X-Men, Daredevil, and Fantastic Four but also fucked up (gradually losing all three). Disney had the characters, the ambition, and the budget to release a movie (and then multiple movies) every year.

dunno... I must give it to hollywood, they were successful recently in turning nerd things into mainstream movies and even full themes spanning multiple seasons, with others joining the bandwagon.

First succesful was lotr. Except I dont recall any followups. Same with matrix - it didnt spark sci-fi theme.

Things changed with GoT spawning fantasy era that appears to be dieing out with witcher, lotr and got spinofs.

Finally there was iron man spawning whole superhero moloh.

sci fi though doesnt appear to be taking of? star treks, new star wars even matrix are all just mediocre.

At one point mainstream will be done with nerds, quite surprising how long its lasting

 

[Grauken]

Star Wars spawned countless knockoffs when it first came out, including Battlestar Galactica for one of the more well-known

 

[lukaszek]

Star Wars spawned countless knockoffs when it first came out, including Battlestar Galactica for one of the more well-known

battlestar is its own superior thing mkay?

I actually meant latest star wars reboot by disney

 

[Humbaba]

Wrathfinder is one of the greatest crpgs of all time and a modern classic. In 10 years, it will be as well regarded as Baldur's Gate or at least Icewind Dale.

 

[Tyranicon]

The reason why capes didn't dominate movies until the 10s is because of Disney's acquisition of Marvel in the late 00s. WB was always trying since 78's Superman, but their executives are a bunch of fuck-ups (still are). Fox also made an attempt with X-Men, Daredevil, and Fantastic Four but also fucked up (gradually losing all three). Disney had the characters, the ambition, and the budget to release a movie (and then multiple movies) every year.

dunno... I must give it to hollywood, they were successful recently in turning nerd things into mainstream movies and even full themes spanning multiple seasons, with others joining the bandwagon.

First succesful was lotr. Except I dont recall any followups. Same with matrix - it didnt spark sci-fi theme.

Things changed with GoT spawning fantasy era that appears to be dieing out with witcher, lotr and got spinofs.

Finally there was iron man spawning whole superhero moloh.

sci fi though doesnt appear to be taking of? star treks, new star wars even matrix are all just mediocre.

At one point mainstream will be done with nerds, quite surprising how long its lasting

Nerds have excellent taste. It comes from being a no-life shut-in who devours media as a substitute for human interaction.

People who actually get out in the world to have those meaningful interactions have no taste. Because they don't devour art, they consume what their friends consume, and that's usually trash.

Nerd media is already incessantly vapid, watered down garbage. I can only imagine how truly awful more mainstream shit is now.

 

[Grauken]

Star Wars spawned countless knockoffs when it first came out, including Battlestar Galactica for one of the more well-known

battlestar is its own superior thing mkay?

I actually meant latest star wars reboot by disney

Both the prequels and the Disney sequels were garbage, why would anybody copy them?

 

[gurugeorge]

Earlier today I stumbled upon two similar news articles that left me quite baffled.

The first spoke about a 'stellar' results of P:WOTR sales:

After rolling onto screens across PC and console in 2021, Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous has shifted over 1 Million copies worldwide. Now available across PC, Xbox One, PlayStation 4 and Nintendo Switch (cloud version), the success of this incredible tale is no real surprise. After a hyped Kickstarter campaign that raised $ 2,054,339, the game garnered popular praise and a stunning 9.5 score here at Gamespace.

The game was released in a buggy, problematic state, yet the overall ratings and player feedback was overwhelmingly positive. Not to mention WOTR was financed on Kickstarter - players actively helped to fund the game.
Normaly I'd simply see these numbers and merely be surprised that a game so popular managed to acomplish only a pitiful one million of sales.

However, soon after I saw a far more surprising news:




Sons Of The Forest is another game from the creators of The Forest - a survival open-world with optional co-op. It managed to sell two million copies within just 24 hours. A result that is obviously amazing, but the difference in what is considered to 'amazing' when talking about one of the biggest western RPG releases of the last few years and an Early-Access survival games is saddening. I've always known RPGs are somewhat niche these days, but the difference between these two numbers is like between Heaven and Earth.

As a bonus, I checked Underrail sales: 198k sales since the game was released 8 years ago.


Am I being weird by being surprised by these numbers? Not having a mainstream appeal is one thing, being utterly out-classed is another. I'm not mad at Sons Of The Forest; the developers have obviously put a lot of work into it. But the difference between the complexity and sophistication between these two games is extreme. Now I feel like RPG genre is barely scraping by.

RPGs, like proper ones based on proper RPG rulesets like D&D or Pathfinder, or bespoke but similar systems, are actually a comparatively small market, even the most successful ones that "cross over" like BG or latterly the Owlcat games. (Nerd Commando did a vid looking at the comparative numbers a year or so ago on his channel, it's pretty scary.) It's always been like that.

Which is a problem, because to be good RPGs do need and deserve AAA budgets (unless you just completely sacrifice the graphics, intricate storytelling, etc.). But sadly, most of them won't command AAA-level audiences.

Action/open world quasi-RPGs and that sort of thing are more popular, but still not as big as shooters, looter shooters, sports games, survival games, cute sim games, etc.

 

[StrongBelwas]

RPGs, like proper ones based on proper RPG rulesets like D&D or Pathfinder, or bespoke but similar systems, are actually a comparatively small market, even the most successful ones that "cross over" like BG or latterly the Owlcat games. (Nerd Commando did a vid looking at the comparative numbers a year or so ago on his channel, it's pretty scary.) It's always been like that.

Which is a problem, because to be good RPGs do need and deserve AAA budgets (unless you just completely sacrifice the graphics, intricate storytelling, etc.). But sadly, most of them won't command AAA-level audiences.

Not really. Age of Decadence, Underrail , etc. The real problem is that it takes a very, very long time between releases with that kind of skeleton crew.

 

[gurugeorge]

RPGs, like proper ones based on proper RPG rulesets like D&D or Pathfinder, or bespoke but similar systems, are actually a comparatively small market, even the most successful ones that "cross over" like BG or latterly the Owlcat games. (Nerd Commando did a vid looking at the comparative numbers a year or so ago on his channel, it's pretty scary.) It's always been like that.

Which is a problem, because to be good RPGs do need and deserve AAA budgets (unless you just completely sacrifice the graphics, intricate storytelling, etc.). But sadly, most of them won't command AAA-level audiences.

Not really. Age of Decadence, Underrail , etc. The real problem is that it takes a very, very long time between releases with that kind of skeleton crew.

Well obviously in that case, time is substituting for the AAA resources I'm talking about - and teams like those do an amazing job with the resources they have. But obviously they would love to have AAA resources if they could, and they could then do more good stuff (presuming good management, etc.).

 

[Grampy_Bone]

There's an argument that superhero films represent the same timeless stories of honor, valor, courage, and conquest that have been popular for millennia, if Beowolf and the Illiad are any indication. Every so often, Hollywood tries something that "everyone knows" won't sell (Iron man was considered an impending flop), makes a shitzillion dollars, and acts like they discovered fire.

One of the main stupidities of modernity (or post-modernity rather), is the proscription on violence. Essentially, a modern hero has to be a loser. If he fights back or actually kills people, he's a bad guy. Harry Potter slumps through seven years of wizard school, learns three whole spells, and somehow wins everything due to a long string of technical coincidences.

In the classic greek myth of Theseus, as a young man he finds his father's sword (either a king or a god, depending on the version) in a stone and embarks on a perilous journey to reclaim his birthright of royalty. Along the road he meets six bandits, all of which he slaughters horribly (edited from Wikipedia):

• At the first site, Theseus turned the tables on the chthonic bandit, Periphetes, the Club Bearer, who beat his opponents into the Earth, and took from him the stout staff.
• At the Isthmian entrance to the Underworld was a robber named Sinis. He would capture travelers, tie them between two pine trees that were bent down to the ground, and then let the trees go, tearing his victims apart. Theseus killed him by his own method. He then became intimate with Sinis's daughter, Perigune. (Lol!)
• In another deed north of the Isthmus, at a place called Crommyon, he killed an enormous pig, the Crommyonian Sow, bred by an old crone named Phaea.
• Near Megara, an elderly robber named Sciron forced travellers along the narrow cliff-face pathway to wash his feet. While they knelt, he kicked them off the cliff behind them, where they were eaten by a sea monster (or, in some versions, a giant turtle). Theseus pushed him off the cliff.
• Another of these enemies was Cercyon, who challenged passers-by to a wrestling match and, when he had beaten them, killed them. Theseus beat Cercyon at wrestling and then killed him instead.
• The last bandit was Procrustes the Stretcher, who had two beds, one of which he offered to passers-by in the plain of Eleusis. He then made them fit into it, either by stretching them or by cutting off their feet. Since he had two beds of different lengths, no one would fit. Theseus turned the tables on Procrustes, cutting off his legs and decapitating him with his own axe.

Now, imagine a modern day hero like Theseus. You can't. Doesn't exist. Impossible to have a heroic figure in 2023 who tears someone in half between two pine trees and then fucks his daughter. That's just how Theseus gets his start, making a whole career of killing fools and fucking bitches, often by abduction. The only type of character who would come close would be considered, ironically, an Anti hero.

Theseus was not considered controversial in ancient Greece. He is unambiguously a hero. The founding father of Athens. One of the reason the marvel films did really well, I think, is because they let their heroes kill pretty frequently. Captain America shoots a lot of dudes. Iron Man vaporizes his villains. There's no hand wringing about whether it's moral to shoot bad guys.

I think fantasy is attractive because it has a similar reactionary quality. Letting someone cut loose, kill everything that stands in their way, rescue the princess, and crown themselves king speaks to every man at a primal level. Stories that tap into this feeling do well, stories that reject, subvert, or deconstruct it usually don't. I have this theory that modern men (especially writers) are so spiritually weak that they can't visualize themselves as a triumphant hero. Even imagining a shining hero makes their own failures that much more unbearable. In the name of 'realism' or 'drama' or 'subverting expectations,' they mutilate and destroy the human soul, not stopping until everyone else is as pathetic and weak as themselves.

 

[Harthwain]

Nerds have excellent taste. It comes from being a no-life shut-in who devours media as a substitute for human interaction.

People who actually get out in the world to have those meaningful interactions have no taste. Because they don't devour art, they consume what their friends consume, and that's usually trash.

I find it to be the other way around, at least for the writers. Part of the reason why anything done by a "no-life shut-ins" is bad is largely because they have no "feel" for it and as a result their works end up being artificial.

 

[Tyranicon]

Nerds have excellent taste. It comes from being a no-life shut-in who devours media as a substitute for human interaction.

People who actually get out in the world to have those meaningful interactions have no taste. Because they don't devour art, they consume what their friends consume, and that's usually trash.

I find it to be the other way around, at least for the writers. Part of the reason why anything done by a "no-life shut-ins" is bad is largely because they have no "feel" for it and as a result their works end up being artificial.

I was being a little sarcastic, of course writers need a dose of life experience to be good. Just having a small joke at the expense of "nerds."

 

[gurugeorge]

There's an argument that superhero films represent the same timeless stories of honor, valor, courage, and conquest that have been popular for millennia, if Beowolf and the Illiad are any indication. Every so often, Hollywood tries something that "everyone knows" won't sell (Iron man was considered an impending flop), makes a shitzillion dollars, and acts like they discovered fire.

One of the main stupidities of modernity (or post-modernity rather), is the proscription on violence. Essentially, a modern hero has to be a loser. If he fights back or actually kills people, he's a bad guy. Harry Potter slumps through seven years of wizard school, learns three whole spells, and somehow wins everything due to a long string of technical coincidences.

In the classic greek myth of Theseus, as a young man he finds his father's sword (either a king or a god, depending on the version) in a stone and embarks on a perilous journey to reclaim his birthright of royalty. Along the road he meets six bandits, all of which he slaughters horribly (edited from Wikipedia):

• At the first site, Theseus turned the tables on the chthonic bandit, Periphetes, the Club Bearer, who beat his opponents into the Earth, and took from him the stout staff.
• At the Isthmian entrance to the Underworld was a robber named Sinis. He would capture travelers, tie them between two pine trees that were bent down to the ground, and then let the trees go, tearing his victims apart. Theseus killed him by his own method. He then became intimate with Sinis's daughter, Perigune. (Lol!)
• In another deed north of the Isthmus, at a place called Crommyon, he killed an enormous pig, the Crommyonian Sow, bred by an old crone named Phaea.
• Near Megara, an elderly robber named Sciron forced travellers along the narrow cliff-face pathway to wash his feet. While they knelt, he kicked them off the cliff behind them, where they were eaten by a sea monster (or, in some versions, a giant turtle). Theseus pushed him off the cliff.
• Another of these enemies was Cercyon, who challenged passers-by to a wrestling match and, when he had beaten them, killed them. Theseus beat Cercyon at wrestling and then killed him instead.
• The last bandit was Procrustes the Stretcher, who had two beds, one of which he offered to passers-by in the plain of Eleusis. He then made them fit into it, either by stretching them or by cutting off their feet. Since he had two beds of different lengths, no one would fit. Theseus turned the tables on Procrustes, cutting off his legs and decapitating him with his own axe.

Now, imagine a modern day hero like Theseus. You can't. Doesn't exist. Impossible to have a heroic figure in 2023 who tears someone in half between two pine trees and then fucks his daughter. That's just how Theseus gets his start, making a whole career of killing fools and fucking bitches, often by abduction. The only type of character who would come close would be considered, ironically, an Anti hero.

Theseus was not considered controversial in ancient Greece. He is unambiguously a hero. The founding father of Athens. One of the reason the marvel films did really well, I think, is because they let their heroes kill pretty frequently. Captain America shoots a lot of dudes. Iron Man vaporizes his villains. There's no hand wringing about whether it's moral to shoot bad guys.

I think fantasy is attractive because it has a similar reactionary quality. Letting someone cut loose, kill everything that stands in their way, rescue the princess, and crown themselves king speaks to every man at a primal level. Stories that tap into this feeling do well, stories that reject, subvert, or deconstruct it usually don't. I have this theory that modern men (especially writers) are so spiritually weak that they can't visualize themselves as a triumphant hero. Even imagining a shining hero makes their own failures that much more unbearable. In the name of 'realism' or 'drama' or 'subverting expectations,' they mutilate and destroy the human soul, not stopping until everyone else is as pathetic and weak as themselves.

This is actually a really interesting post, but I have to ask - what's the connection to Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous? Or is it just a general comment on modern fantasy games bouncing off thoughts about PFWOTR? Or was it meant for another thread? (That's happened to me a few times, I've posted something that was on my mind, then I realize I've abstent-mindedly posted it to the thread after the one that inspired the thoughts )

 

[Grampy_Bone]

what's the connection to Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous?

People were commenting on the Fantasy genre vs. Pirates as gaming themes, on why Deadfire didn't do well vs traditional fantasy settings like Pathfinder. See posts by Roguey, Grauken, Desiderious, etc. They were talking about Marvel films being a fad and suggesting pirate stories also come and go in popularity. My comment was meant to discuss the deeper underlying themes of stories, rather than just debating surface level tropes like castles vs. boats, which I find not very meaningful. Have you ever noticed stories like Dune and Star Wars: A New Hope, while looking like science fiction, have more in common with King Arthur than Star Trek? There's a reason for that. A fantasy story that tries to be a progressive morality play will fail hard (the bookstores are full of many such stories, all unsold) while a reactionary pirate epic would sell huge.

For the record, I actually like Deadfire, bland story aside, it's a fun game when the story gets out of the way and you can just have an adventure. I admit I have a soft spot for it since in my D&D days I actually ran a pirate-themed campaign, and it kicked ass. Players absolutely loved it. One thing I can say, the boat combat in PnP did indeed suck. Deadfire's rendition is pretty much spot on, unfortunately. When we realized how bad boat combat was, we agreed to just make sailing checks to determine who could catch who, then just jump straight to a boarding battle. Much more fun.

 

[gurugeorge]

what's the connection to Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous?

For the record, I actually like Deadfire, bland story aside, it's a fun game when the story gets out of the way and you can just have an adventure.

I've liked Deadfire more each time I've gone back to it (I'm actually about to give it another tinker - the fourth, though only one of the previous was to completion, but now I have all the DLCs ).

 

[Desiderius]

There’s a good many fun twists to find with the class combos. Like figuring out that Arcane Archer works way better as a Wiz/Ranger caster with super high Accuracy (so can crit spells all day) and a great pet (since you can spend all Ranger level-ups on pet stuff) than a Ranger that could burn all its Bond tacking a crappy spell onto an auto-attack (which mostly sux compared to base Ranger).

The CombatFag stuff made me go back and try different quest choices and pay some more attention to the story but fighting through the SoyerFog was just too much to stomach there generally.

 

[DeepOcean]

Wasnt PoE 2 main criticism that it was a pirate game where the pirate especific gameplay sucked and the best parts had nothing to do with being a pirate?

 

[lukaszek]

Star Wars spawned countless knockoffs when it first came out, including Battlestar Galactica for one of the more well-known

battlestar is its own superior thing mkay?

I actually meant latest star wars reboot by disney

Both the prequels and the Disney sequels were garbage, why would anybody copy them?

i will always defend pod racing

 

[Roguey]

Wasnt PoE 2 main criticism that it was a pirate game where the pirate especific gameplay sucked and the best parts had nothing to do with being a pirate?

Sawyer would argue it was never a pirate game and they never marketed it as one.