Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[InD_ImaginE]

What a dumb conversation.

Indeed. Companions are clearly better. Full party creation should be reserved for some obscure nostalgia driven first-person blobber after all.

Spoiler

 

[Pink Eye]

>What a dumb conversation.
I'm going back to playing Kingmaker. I am half way through finishing my iron man run.

 

[guestposting]

So did they unlock the camera angle in the alpha? If so, how's it handling, is it just for gawking or do you find you have to swivel around regularly while you play?

Yeah, they unlocked it. In some of the more crowded areas you need to swivel around occasionally to get a good view, but it’s not essential. I did most of my first playthrough without knowing how to swivel the camera (it’s currently tied to the middle mouse button with no keyboard control, which I’m sure they’ll change before release) and the experience was fine.

 

[hell bovine]

Good middle ground is getting to choose companion's stats and class, with one recommended build by devs to make game more retard-proof. Companions are always the way to go, unless they are written like shit (Octavia).

That 'unless' is a reason to have mercs as an option. It's not always about the stats. Sometimes it's nice to play a party where everyone keeps quiet and doesn't expect you to rp a therapy session.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Sneak attacks are the unique broken thing on this game. Getting 6 sneaks attacks with hellfire ray makes no sense.

While admittedly self-serving, I find Owlcat's implementation of sneak attack for spells logically consistent and a good house rule. If a flanking rogue with 3 attacks can do sneak attacks with each attack, then an AT using Scorching/Hellfire Ray should get it on each ray that requires its own ranged touch attack. It's logically consistent and a rational. That it is wonderfully powerful is irrelevant. I'm surprised that you of all people, would take that position.

 

[NJClaw]

No. Mercs suck. Period. In terms of optimization, Companions do it better. Save for special cases like Amiri who is restricted to her iconic point buy. Everyone else has a higher point buy than what mercs can achieve. Companions can further increase their stats via completion of personal quests. Companions can gain access to unique passives or unique items later in the game.

This isn't always true and, even if it was, it would mean nothing. Kingmaker has endless party compositions to try and, for some of them, mercenaries are the way to go. Maybe you want a Dexterity focused melee Alchemist, maybe you want a Druid without any level in another class, maybe you want a ranged Paladin, maybe you want a Sorcerer without a slower spell progression due to multiclassing, maybe you want a Sorcerer/Paladin/Monk/Eldritch Knight and even a single level lost to another class would mean delaying your already slow build even longer. There are reasons to rely on mercenaries, even if companions use an higher point buy and better stats.

In terms of narrative, Companions do it better. Each companion is interwoven within the story. Each playing a part in one way or another. Tristian, for example, plays a very significant role during Season of Bloom. Imagine going through the quest without him, it just wouldn't be the same. In terms of banter, Companions do it better. You're playing what is essentially a one hundred hour playthrough. It'd be awfully boring without hearing Harrim talking about the end, and how we're all doomed.

Let's see, do I go for what is basically a walking mute stat stick. Or do I go for a fleshed companion with banter and a role in the narrative?

Companions take a lot of work from writers and developers. It'd be a waste to not at least experience the work these people put into them.

On this, I agree 100% with you... until you have already experienced everything companions have to offer. During my first two playthroughs I haven't even touched mercenaries, but after you have already completed their quests, experienced their involvement in the story and read their banter/dialogue, what's the point? If you are going through the campaign for the third time (but this can be true even just for a second playthrough), you will probably skip dialogues and just play the game to enjoy combat with different parties (at least, that's my experience).

I generally love companions and I loved kingmaker ones, but I still started relying on mercenaries after a while, because they had nothing more to offer me and I just wanted to enjoy the amazing combat system put togheter by Owlcat.

 

[Lilliput McHammersmith]

Companions take a lot of work from writers and developers. It'd be a waste to not at least experience the work these people put into them.

Not just a waste from the point of view of respecting the developers' work, but it's a waste of your own money not to experience what you paid for.

I've noted numerous times that while I despise the PC box-ticking and degeneracy in the game (as in all modern games), the actual writing isn't too bad here, there's some decent, thoughtful character development and banter, and you're wasting money if you don't experience it thoroughly. It's more like 2012 politically correct writing than 2020 - from a time when people wrote as if they cared about the actual characters, rather than obnoxiously shoving them in your face as teaching moments.

But the reason that someone paid for it may not be the same reason you paid for it. You may see it as a waste, but who cares? I personally bought PFKM for the build system and combat, not really the story. I bought Disco Elysium for the story. I bought Planescape for the story.

"The developers' work"? They are the ones that added the mercs in the first place haha. It's not a waste. The only waste is if you didn't have fun.

 

[Desiderius]

I'd love if more RPGs had companions like Vhailor, Kreia, Kutsuragi, Alistair/Morrigan who get most of their development through their reactions to players choices, game's events and environment, instead of being just a list of questions you can go through and forget about until/after their (usually single) side-quest.
A lot of companions in Kingmaker suffered from it, there were only 3-4 decent ones (Harrim was the best imo) .
Less companions with more effort put into them would be a better approach.

So did they unlock the camera angle in the alpha? If so, how's it handling, is it just for gawking or do you find you have to swivel around regularly while you play?

Yeah, they unlocked it. In some of the more crowded areas you need to swivel around occasionally to get a good view, but it’s not essential. I did most of my first playthrough without knowing how to swivel the camera (it’s currently tied to the middle mouse button with no keyboard control, which I’m sure they’ll change before release) and the experience was fine.

I like middle mouse button since I’m used to it for other games. P:K mod uses keyboard which can be a pain.

Both would be fine. Just need to add a return to default button and/or sync the map like the mod does.

 

[Desiderius]

What a dumb conversation.

Indeed. Companions are clearly better. Full party creation should be reserved for some obscure nostalgia driven first-person blobber after all.

Spoiler

no, just better to play this game as designed. I’d play IWD3 and enjoy the fuck out of it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I remember that time I sat down to play D&D and created the entire party by myself rather than creating my character and everyone else creating their own.

 

[NJClaw]

I remember that time I sat down to play D&D and created the entire party by myself rather than creating my character and everyone else creating their own.

I remember that time I sat down to play D&D and the dungeon master was a computer program that had already decided every single twist and event that could possibly happen during the adventure.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I remember that time I sat down to play D&D and created the entire party by myself rather than creating my character and everyone else creating their own.

I remember that time I sat down to play D&D and the dungeon master was a computer program that had already decided every single twist and event that could possibly happen during the adventure.

weird and here I thought the game was created by actual people rather than being a simulation created by a computer

 

[Background Character]

I remember when I decided to join the thread of Wrath of the Righteous, thinking there was no way it could be worse than the Kingmaker thread

 

[razvedchiki]

The problem with mercs is their 20 point buy and the - 4 they get as advisors.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I remember when I decided to join the thread of Wrath of the Righteous, thinking there was no way it could be worse than the Kingmaker thread

nope, it will be full of 3.5e munchkins just like the kangmaker thread

 

[Sharpedge]

I am all for letting people have their own fun, so long as they don't come along and try to ruin mine. The pathfinder options menu is an example (in my opinion) of what every RPG options menu should look like, letting people more or less pick how they want to play the game. Whilst there could be improvements (for example, harder difficulty improves AI, not just number bloat), the amount of choice in the options menu is a great thing. The mercs being there is another example of the same idea. I don't make mercs, you don't make mercs, but it doesn't impact my gameplay if someone else makes mercs and it stops them whining about the preset character stat distributions.

Yes, yes, we're all libertarians now, which is entirely beside the point. RL is already anything goes, the whole point of playing a game someone else has designed is seeing what restrictions they've chosen to place on your absolute freedom and seeing how those play out. Same reason the Sonnet Form kicks Free Verse's ass. Restrictions spur creativity in pleasurable ways.

Owlcat has chose to design a game around companions. If after giving that a fair shot you want to try something different knock yourself out. I'm currently playing a heavily modded playthrough because I decided I'd finally had my fill of vanilla.

On the other hand if you're modding right out of the gate or firing up the mercs first thing you're doing it wrong. Yes, I am harshing your mellow. Intentionally. Thank me later.

You're not harshing my anything, I already said I don't make mercs so it isn't like I am arguing for my benefit. You believe the game might be intended to be played a specific way and this may be true, but that doesn't mean that you need to outright prevent people from playing it another way unless not outright preventing it ruins the experience for other people. The game already does a fairly decent job of discouraging you from making mercs, they cost a fair bit to make (if you make them after level 1), they are worse kingdom advisors and they have a lower point buy. This means that anyone who does decide to use mercs, is doing so knowing all of this and choosing to make them regardless. Maybe they do so because they have finished the game a number of times and want to play some class combination you cannot achieve with the default companions, maybe they do so because they want to have their stats some specific way. Whatever the reason for it is, it doesn't really impact me and I see no reason not to have the option in the game.

There are many ways to make people "play the game the way you want it to be played" without outright preventing alternatives. Positive reinforcement, for example, actively rewarding switching between companions, be it through dialogue (for roleplay centered people) or interesting items from companion specific quests (for people who like items) is one good method to achieve this. They could also have the ability to create mercs be a difficulty option, which by default is toggled off and delay when mercs can be created until later in the game, for example, if you could only make them after you have found all of the companions. These are all different ways to encourage people to at least try all the companions, to, "play the game the way its intended to be played," that do not remove the option.

And if, after all of this, they still want to make mercs. So what? It isn't our job to curate the way someone else plays the game and they clearly have their mind set on how they want to play it. I am just glad that people are buying games like this, because it means that more of them can be made.

 

[NJClaw]

I remember that time I sat down to play D&D and created the entire party by myself rather than creating my character and everyone else creating their own.

I remember that time I sat down to play D&D and the dungeon master was a computer program that had already decided every single twist and event that could possibly happen during the adventure.

weird and here I thought the game was created by actual people rather than being a simulation created by a computer

... checkmate, atheists?

What's your favorite part of a D&D game session? Mine is when the dungeon master asks a question and then gives me the list of answers I can choose from (even including the eventual skill check in square brackets).

 

[Gargaune]

Yeah, they unlocked it. In some of the more crowded areas you need to swivel around occasionally to get a good view, but it’s not essential. I did most of my first playthrough without knowing how to swivel the camera (it’s currently tied to the middle mouse button with no keyboard control, which I’m sure they’ll change before release) and the experience was fine.

That's good to hear, thanks. I found PFKM's 2.5D very comfortable and was worried the new unlocked camera might lead to more "fully 3D" area design and constant pivoting in play.

 

[Desiderius]

The conversation started with someone talking about making mercs like it was the expected thing and me countering with mercs sucking. Nothing about preventing them, though I wouldn't mind that because it's fun to be pissed off about something then find out you were wrong all along.

Don't think there's any risk of that happening soon unless I can convince enough people to play games as designed and they enjoy it so much they request it.

Best solution would be plenty of good games of both types.

 

[gurugeorge]

Companions take a lot of work from writers and developers. It'd be a waste to not at least experience the work these people put into them.

Not just a waste from the point of view of respecting the developers' work, but it's a waste of your own money not to experience what you paid for.

I've noted numerous times that while I despise the PC box-ticking and degeneracy in the game (as in all modern games), the actual writing isn't too bad here, there's some decent, thoughtful character development and banter, and you're wasting money if you don't experience it thoroughly. It's more like 2012 politically correct writing than 2020 - from a time when people wrote as if they cared about the actual characters, rather than obnoxiously shoving them in your face as teaching moments.

But the reason that someone paid for it may not be the same reason you paid for it. You may see it as a waste, but who cares? I personally bought PFKM for the build system and combat, not really the story. I bought Disco Elysium for the story. I bought Planescape for the story.

"The developers' work"? They are the ones that added the mercs in the first place haha. It's not a waste. The only waste is if you didn't have fun.

I know what you mean, but as I see it you paid for a product that objectively contains x,y and z, if you only want to play with z then of course that's your prerogative, but again, objectively speaking, you're missing out on some of the stuff you paid for, whether you give a toss about the stuff you're not using or not. Like, if you buy a car with reclining seats but never have a snooze or a shag in it, objectively speaking you still paid for a car that has reclining seats and you're missing out on a portion of the stuff you paid for.

 

[InternalRevenue]

For those who've played the Alpha, have you noticed any improvements in non-caster AI? As in do melee enemies (discounting initial positioning) actually try to flank, move past AC tanks to get at squishies, or use abilities (defensive fighting, intimidate, expertise etc.) on your party?

 

[Lawntoilet]

For those who've played the Alpha, have you noticed any improvements in non-caster AI? As in do melee enemies (discounting initial positioning) actually try to flank, move past AC tanks to get at squishies, or use abilities (defensive fighting, intimidate, expertise etc.) on your party?

I don't know about Demoralizing or Fighting Defensively but as to the others, yes.
Way more Combat Maneuvers, way more rushing the backline/attacking from stealth after tanks are engaged, also noticing more feats in the combat log like Power Attack, Piranha Strike, etc.

 

[entr0py]

For those who've played the Alpha, have you noticed any improvements in non-caster AI? As in do melee enemies (discounting initial positioning) actually try to flank, move past AC tanks to get at squishies, or use abilities (defensive fighting, intimidate, expertise etc.) on your party?

I don't know about Demoralizing or Fighting Defensively but as to the others, yes.
Way more Combat Maneuvers, way more rushing the backline/attacking from stealth after tanks are engaged, also noticing more feats in the combat log like Power Attack, Piranha Strike, etc.

Why don't we have a "massive incline" rating? The regular incline feels shallow after reading this!

 

[Desiderius]

For those who've played the Alpha, have you noticed any improvements in non-caster AI? As in do melee enemies (discounting initial positioning) actually try to flank, move past AC tanks to get at squishies, or use abilities (defensive fighting, intimidate, expertise etc.) on your party?

I don't know about Demoralizing or Fighting Defensively but as to the others, yes.
Way more Combat Maneuvers, way more rushing the backline/attacking from stealth after tanks are engaged, also noticing more feats in the combat log like Power Attack, Piranha Strike, etc.

Why don't we have a "massive incline" rating? The regular incline feels shallow after reading this!

They’re off to a great start. We’ll save that for the finished product.

 

[Ontopoly]

Combat is always better with limitations. Unless the limitations you're talking about are level 1-10 only. At that point you just went full Larian.