Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Ontopoly]

This is definitely the type of game you need to play early before the reviewers force them to casualise it. Same thing with kingmaker. I played it day one and got good encounters like the buffed up bear in the Elk temple and the spider swarms. Play it now and you miss out on those and the first 3 wolves and all sorts of things.

 

[Lawntoilet]

This is definitely the type of game you need to play early before the reviewers force them to casualise it. Same thing with kingmaker. I played it day one and got good encounters like the buffed up bear in the Elk temple and the spider swarms. Play it now and you miss out on those and the first 3 wolves and all sorts of things.

Maybe, maybe not.
This time around they will have a better understanding of what big retards reviewers are.
They've got unkillable mode for babby's first CRPG, journos love story modes so very well could be that they don't fiddle with difficulty at all. I think story mode even disables all enemy resistance and immunity so you can fight swarms with a sword like a real IGN/RPS tard professional games critic.

 

[Sarkile]

Its Woljif, not Wojcic!!

I've just been calling him Wojak and I got confused, I'll get it eventually

I just call him Wolfdick.

Yeah, Jeslyn (swarm lady) was a pretty rough fight. Her and that Alchemist were harder than the boss IMO.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Its Woljif, not Wojcic!!

I've just been calling him Wojak and I got confused, I'll get it eventually

I just call him Wolfdick.

Yeah, Jeslyn (swarm lady) was a pretty rough fight. Her and that Alchemist were harder than the boss IMO.

Wait that was a lady?

The alchemist in the basement was hard too. The one that gave me the most trouble though was the fight with all the Brimoraks where you start out behind the secret door.
The boss was way easier in comparison thanks to the buff you get - still not trivial though, my backing got rushed and Lann almost went down, and my MC got fairly heavily Dex/Wis drained during the fight.

 

[razvedchiki]

Lawntoilet what class did you use?
is 1 lvl of monk still mandatory for melee classes?
really curious if you still need load of touch ac for the end game.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

This is definitely the type of game you need to play early before the reviewers force them to casualise it. Same thing with kingmaker. I played it day one and got good encounters like the buffed up bear in the Elk temple and the spider swarms. Play it now and you miss out on those and the first 3 wolves and all sorts of things.

I mean a lot of problem with PfK is learning curve which is very bad and a valid critique of the game. The game system is complex enough and the game does a shit job explaining the system to the player. Combine that with bad RNG and encounter design early makes for a rather frustrating early game. The Tutorial (Jamandi mansion) does a shit job of preparing players on what's to come, difficulty and information-wise. Contrary to what Codex believes giving time for players to adjust to a complex system is a good thing and shouldn't be shunned.

Rather than making a stupid early game hell, Owlcat should even out the difficulty Curve so that encounter provides constant challenges at all levels instead of the reverse parabolic curve PfK had. The only reason spider swarm is hard (and btw Spider Swarm in EE is actually harder altho optional compared to the older versions) was due swarm information being, well, not anywhere. It wouldn't hurt for the game to say "Hey swarm is only vulnerable to AoE stuff" and maybe giving an introduction to fight against low-level rat swarm or something. The same with the concept of poison, negative levels, saving throws etc. All of them are not explained and the game was designed and the assumption that the player just knows what to do (either due to pre-existing knowledge through older D&D games or PnP).

Other difficulties complain in PfK early game was also incredibly RNG based which is not"fun". There is not much you can do about Oleg's bandit besides praying to RNG because you are level 2. It is even worse at launch because the strongest tool for that encounter (Grease) was not in the game, as IIRC Grease is added later from a patch. The buffed bear was also only RNG based difficulties. You prebuffed and hope you hit him more than he hit you.

Compared to those, WoR seems to reward a more thinking approach. So you have retarded planar enemies spamming Mass Inflight Light Wound against your level 3 party. What to do? Oh there is actually a way to their backline and you can force them into melee in which they will try to fight you after one cast of Mass Inflict Light Wound instead of casting it 3 times (which are 6 totals as there 2 of them). Oh hey, a demon which Greater Teleport to your backline? After failing, try to divide you backline a bit with maybe your tank there, etc.

 

[Xamenos]

I mean a lot of problem with PfK is learning curve which is very bad and a valid critique of the game. The game system is complex enough and the game does a shit job explaining the system to the player. Combine that with bad RNG and encounter design early makes for a rather frustrating early game. The Tutorial (Jamandi mansion) does a shit job of preparing players on what's to come, difficulty and information-wise. Contrary to what Codex believes giving time for players to adjust to a complex system is a good thing and shouldn't be shunned.

The game not giving you enough information is a valid criticism. The game having a bad encounter design is criticism made by people for whom no amount of information would be enough to avoid filtering.

Rather than making a stupid early game hell, Owlcat should even out the difficulty Curve so that encounter provides constant challenges at all levels instead of the reverse parabolic curve PfK had. The only reason spider swarm is hard (and btw Spider Swarm in EE is actually harder altho optional compared to the older versions) was due swarm information being, well, not anywhere. It wouldn't hurt for the game to say "Hey swarm is only vulnerable to AoE stuff" and maybe giving an introduction to fight against low-level rat swarm or something. The same with the concept of poison, negative levels, saving throws etc. All of them are not explained and the game was designed and the assumption that the player just knows what to do (either due to pre-existing knowledge through older D&D games or PnP).

They did that. With the first patch, they made Bokken give you a bunch of Alchemists' Fire for free and have the game tell you about swarm vulnerabilities. It wasn't enough, and casuals STILL got filtered by the first encounter of the game to require a modicum of thought.

Other difficulties complain in PfK early game was also incredibly RNG based which is not"fun". There is not much you can do about Oleg's bandit besides praying to RNG because you are level 2. It is even worse at launch because the strongest tool for that encounter (Grease) was not in the game, as IIRC Grease is added later from a patch. The buffed bear was also only RNG based difficulties. You prebuffed and hope you hit him more than he hit you

You do not understand the system well enough to make that call. Even if Grease wasn't in the game at release (though I think it was there and you just missed it), you have things like Sleep or Linzi's Hideous Laughter. There are many things you can do even in early battles, but they require you to build your party right so that you have those options. But there are options beyond prebuff and autoattack, even at L1.

 

[fantadomat]

How do I get into alpha.

By dick sacrifice,you have to chop it off!

 

[Lawntoilet]

Lawntoilet what class did you use?
is 1 lvl of monk still mandatory for melee classes?
really curious if you still need load of touch ac for the end game.

I'm playing a Magus (vanilla, Str>Dex), not super minmaxed or anything.
Crane Style helps of course but I wouldn't say 1 level of Monk is mandatory in Kingmaker or this game. I haven't multiclassed my MC or any of the companions yet.
I can't speak to endgame because I'm only level 6 (+1 Mythic) but as far as Touch AC goes there are a few encounters with enemy alchemists, and a few others, where TAC is good to have, but Seelah can still tank with regular AC pretty well most of the time.

 

[Desiderius]

Lawntoilet what class did you use?
is 1 lvl of monk still mandatory for melee classes?
really curious if you still need load of touch ac for the end game.

This idea was the first step along the road to suck.

Design based around endgame played poorly.

Pathfinder is heavily biased toward pure classes. Once you start to dip you start heading downhill.

 

[Desiderius]

Lawntoilet what class did you use?
is 1 lvl of monk still mandatory for melee classes?
really curious if you still need load of touch ac for the end game.

I'm playing a Magus (vanilla, Str>Dex), not super minmaxed or anything.
Crane Style helps of course but I wouldn't say 1 level of Monk is mandatory in Kingmaker or this game. I haven't multiclassed my MC or any of the companions yet.
I can't speak to endgame because I'm only level 6 (+1 Mythic) but as far as Touch AC goes there are a few encounters with enemy alchemists, and a few others, where TAC is good to have, but Seelah can still tank with regular AC pretty well most of the time.

Crane Style is bad because Fighting Defensively is bad. It only comes on after you need it. Charge in there and wreck shit.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Pathfinder is heavily biased toward pure classes. Once you start to dip you start heading downhill.

Generally I agree, but the Vivi/Monk dip meme exists for a reason. Also it's obviously necessary if you're going for Arcane Trickster or something.
Barbarians are also good for MCing I think, just not really for a dip.
Provided the Alpha doesn't vanish on the 21st I'd like to run a shield-bashing Barb/Freebooter to check out the Azata path.

 

[Desiderius]

You can absolutely rest during the assault on Grey Garrison. You just can’t do it when there are enemies nearby, which is true everywhere in the game. Kill them and get some sleep.

edit: some enemies are invisible which may be tripping you up

I guess I didn't quite have the floor cleared when I tried resting then.
However I would still recommend not resting, it doesn't make sense that you'd be able to in context of the assault, and it makes it fun to power through.

There should be more reactivity in general for strongholds being invaded and the like, but since there isn't I don't see how limited rests (also no hunting or cooking) changes much. The Mongrelmen have been waiting in ambush for some unspecified period of time (at least a week) already.

I'd like to see reinforced patrols or something as a price for resting, but mandatory no rest at all (as opposed to rest limited by sticks and carrots) puts too much of a crimp on the Vancian goodness.

 

[Desiderius]

Pathfinder is heavily biased toward pure classes. Once you start to dip you start heading downhill.

Generally I agree, but the Vivi/Monk dip meme exists for a reason. Also it's obviously necessary if you're going for Arcane Trickster or something.
Barbarians are also good for MCing I think, just not really for a dip.
Provided the Alpha doesn't vanish on the 21st I'd like to run a shield-bashing Barb/Freebooter to check out the Azata path.

Barb 2 is among the best dips, but most Rage abilities scale by level and Pounce is Barb 10. Pure Fighter (and Aldori) got a bunch of scaling abilities added so are much less amenable to splashing now. TSS gets most of its goodies by lvl 9 so works reasonably well as a hybrid, as does Freebooter 10 (although Aspect of Wolf has grown on me).

The Vivi/Monk meme exists because people thought it looked broken before the game came out and very few enjoy updating their priors. Now people think it's mandatory which is exactly backwards.

Prereqs are (obviously) different than dips.

 

[Kalarion]

The game system is complex enough and the game does a shit job explaining the system to the player.

Agreed. The rest I disagree. The only problem I had with the early game in P:K was the fact that the ingame manual was shit. I made a sorc but couldn't find a source for character creation info that I needed. Where's my spells known table? Where is the comprehensive feat list? My casts/day? The table showing how my casting stat modifed both (or one, or neither)? I ended up having to use the Pathfinder SRD, which sucked because I didn't have a second monitor to put it on. I had to read practically the first four fucking chapters before going back into the game.

This is just an example but I think it proves your point. Where's the entry on different monster types? On Special Qualities? On Summon Monster limits? And so on and so forth. It's a real failure especially considering they have a "manual" ingame... it just doesn't give me the information I need/want.

 

[Desiderius]

Funny thing is it turned out to mostly be all there, just non-intuitive to find.

Spells known is right click on level on class diagram. Discovered that 1800 hrs in.

In other news, my companion ImplodingAnus is back. For a minute there I thought I'd lost him. Sometimes I wish I could teach him to talk to find out what he's thinking.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Funny thing is it turned out to mostly be all there, just non-intuitive to find.

Spells known is right click on level on class diagram. Discovered that 1800 hrs in.

Was that there at release though?
The game's documentation did improve but it was quite obscure and hard to figure out at release.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Even if Grease wasn't in the game at release (though I think it was there and you just missed it)

No he's right, Grease was added in the 1.1 patch. https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1730963192550800891/?ctp=2#c3104564981105644346

New Grease spell is added. Wizards, Magi and Bards can learn it.

 

[Xamenos]

Even if Grease wasn't in the game at release (though I think it was there and you just missed it)

No he's right, Grease was added in the 1.1 patch. https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1730963192550800891/?ctp=2#c3104564981105644346

New Grease spell is added. Wizards, Magi and Bards can learn it.

I stand corrected then. Still, there are answers to encounters other than Grease, even at L1.

 

[Desiderius]

Here you go, Santino

I'm really torn up that Amiri isn't Lawful. Missing the hell out of that Crane Style.

 

[razvedchiki]

Crane Style helps of course but I wouldn't say 1 level of Monk is mandatory in Kingmaker or this game

wot, you get wis to ac plus crane style for defencive fighing. for just 1 lvl its just a steal.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Crane Style helps of course but I wouldn't say 1 level of Monk is mandatory in Kingmaker or this game

wot, you get wis to ac plus crane style for defencive fighing. for just 1 lvl its just a steal.

It's good (like I said it is a meme for a reason), you don't need it though.
There are other ways to not get hit (mirror image, concealment, incapacitating/killing things faster, etc) and some builds can get so much AC even without a monk dip that it's overkill.
Regardless, for the content in the alpha, I haven't taken a monk dip on Seelah or my MC and I haven't missed the extra AC.

 

[santino27]

Here you go, Santino

I'm really torn up that Amiri isn't Lawful. Missing the hell out of that Crane Style.

So your goal is to kill everything before it can hit you. Ok... but by the same token, if you're charging into combat, you're also triggering fight defensively immediately (and before they can attack back) which means it's a benefit if you don't instakill the mob.

 

[Desiderius]

Here you go, Santino

I'm really torn up that Amiri isn't Lawful. Missing the hell out of that Crane Style.

So your goal is to kill everything before it can hit you. Ok... but by the same token, if you're charging into combat, you're also triggering fight defensively immediately (and before they can attack back) which means it's a benefit if you don't instakill the mob.

Nah that’s what Uncanny Dodge on Barb 2 is for. They get a few swings here and there but there’s so much AC floating around that the extra from the Monk splash gets quickly outclassed while you feel the AB penalty, the unreliability, and the delay in getting your class abilities online the whole game.

The WIS or CHR to AC is only a thing for most of the game if you’re a caster who doesn’t want to wear armor or a shield*, which is much narrower than people are talking about when they say it’s required or some shit.

* - the only companion (other than Kanerah) who can readily use a Monk splash has already invested a level in (very good) Tower Shield Proficiency, so if you’re splashing Monk there for CHR to AC you’ve now burned two levels.

 

[Desiderius]

My goal is to be able to kill/disable things that need killing/disabling before they can do bad things. For Amiri specifically she usually waits a beat by using Freebooter’s Bane Move Action before Charge/Pouncing in.

If you are Fighting Defensively (Val with Galt Ragout or a straight Monk or Aldori Swordlord or Harrim using touch attacks) Charge/Pounce is a good way to turn it on, you’re right.