Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Desiderius]

redundant (Oracle, Witch, and Shaman)

This classes AREN'T redundant.

• Oracle = Spontaneous divine caster
• Witch = A arcane caster with a specific spellbook that blurs the barrier between arcane and divine by being a conduit of a outsider force(eg - winter, moon, sun, etc) and Witches has a unique resource(Hex)
• Shaman = If Wiches are arcanes with one step towards divine, shamans are divine with a step towards arcane.
• Arcanist = A hybrid between Wizards and Sorcerers. They prepare spells like Wizards and casts like Sorcerers and can exploit the magic.

So, in other words, redundant.

TBF, most of the redundancy is in the available abilities as they currently stand.

Need to get some better Exploits (like Counterspell)/Spirits/Hexes/Revelations in there and cut down on all the chaff.

Witch action economy is a mess.

 

[NJClaw]

Class redundancy is one of Pathfinder's core problems. They went too far trying to avoid and discourage D&D 3.5 multiclassing habits and the result is that you have dozens of different ways to build the same character. If you want to play a "fighter that draws power from divinities" (so what in previous editions would be a Fighter/Cleric multiclass) you can go for a pure Cleric, a Cleric with the Crusader archetype, a Paladin (with all his archetypes), an Inquisitor (with all his archetypes), a Warpriest (with all his archetypes) and probably something I'm forgetting right now.

I'm all for possibilities and choices in character creation, but I think Pathfinder loses itself in trying to give as much freedom as possible.

 

[Desiderius]

Class redundancy is one of Pathfinder's core problems. They went too far trying to avoid and discourage D&D 3.5 multiclassing habits and the result is that you have dozens of different ways to build the same character. If you want to play a "fighter that draws power from divinities" (so what in previous editions would be a Fighter/Cleric multiclass) you can go for a pure Cleric, a Cleric with the Crusader archetype, a Paladin (with all his archetypes), an Inquisitor (with all his archetypes), a Warpriest (with all his archetypes) and probably something I'm forgetting right now.

I'm all for possibilities and choices in character creation, but I think Pathfinder loses itself in trying to give as much freedom as possible.

Which runs headlong into stacking rules. So much strictly worse. The Shaman Battle Spirit the companion gets is so bad compared to Good Hope it hurts. I guess you get one damage over Bless? All those one round/lvl abilities really lock you unto a class if you want them to not completely suck. But of course then they give her infinite DEX and Trickery Skill Focus without it being a Class Skill, which begs for an Inquisitor splash or something.

 

[Xamenos]

redundant (Oracle, Witch, and Shaman)

This classes AREN'T redundant.

• Oracle = Spontaneous divine caster
• Witch = A arcane caster with a specific spellbook that blurs the barrier between arcane and divine by being a conduit of a outsider force(eg - winter, moon, sun, etc) and Witches has a unique resource(Hex)
• Shaman = If Wiches are arcanes with one step towards divine, shamans are divine with a step towards arcane.
• Arcanist = A hybrid between Wizards and Sorcerers. They prepare spells like Wizards and casts like Sorcerers and can exploit the magic.

So, in other words, redundant.

TBF, most of the redundancy is in the available abilities as they currently stand.

Need to get some better Exploits (like Counterspell)/Spirits/Hexes/Revelations in there and cut down on all the chaff.

Witch action economy is a mess.

This is more of a problem with Pathfinder itself, and its "hybridize everything to create new classes" philosophy. Paladin and Inquisitor could equally be seen as redundant, for instance. There isn't much that can be done at this point without deviating from the ruleset too much.

edit: too slow.

 

[Desiderius]

Bizarro Tristian (Daeran) is a nice touch though. Anyone figured out the Statue puzzle?

 

[Desiderius]

too slow.

No, that's well said. They can do what they did with P:K and eliminate a good bit of the needless redundancy/focus on what the classes do uniquely well.

Let's help them get there.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Anyone figured out the Statue puzzle?

Spoiler

The book on the altar tells you the order to touch the statues. You'll find a description of each person the statues represent in various places around the garrison.

 

[amurath]

Bizarro Tristian (Daeran) is a nice touch though. Anyone figured out the Statue puzzle?

This is what one of the anons posted on 4chan:
You need to light the statue in the order outline by the Prayer Scroll
>Galfrey
>Hand of the Inheritor
>Lariel
>Targona
>Zacharius
>Yaniel
Now who is who ?
Galfrey is the human with a sword and shield as stated in the Sermon Extract foun on a knight
Hand of the Inheritor is the Angel with a Sword and Shield because he is Iomedae's herald and these are her symbols
Lariel is the Angel with a Sword as stated in the Biography Extracte found in a room North-East in the same map
Targona is the Angel with a hammer, which is also stated in the Biography extract
Zacharius is the Human with a staff because he is the one who founded the library and a caster ( info found in the Blackwing Library)
Yaniel is the last remaining statue, the human with a sword.

So the order is
Human with Shield
Angel with Sword and Shield
Angel with Sword
Angel with Hammer
Human with Staff
Human with Sword

 

[Xamenos]

too slow.

No, that's well said.

NJClaw largely covered the same topic. Wouldn't have replied if I'd seen his.

 

[Lacrymas]

They could've limited the multiclassing to 2 classes like PoE and avoided both the multiclassing problem and endless redundant hybrid classes. But the damage is already done.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

The writing is OK mostly I think so far? I bit more verbose and descriptive vs PfK I think which may trigger Codex, but I personally don't mind it.

Now the problem is the alignment choices. PfK was criticized for alignment changing dialogues to be very limited, especially for LG alignment (most Good choices are Neutral/Chaotic in PfK). So they decided to make those choices only move you to one axis (so dialogue choice will be Lawful, Chaotic, Good, Evil, not a "pair" of alignment). While some of them work, sometimes the choices feel like they are to be LG/CE (paired alignment) but they just remove one of the alignment just because. Besides that, I guess I wish to have more alignment altering dialogue? Sometimes the game just gives you one alignment related one while the other are just normal options. I guess this is still alpha and they will be able to polish it later especially with the reactivity stretch goals.

EDIT: another note that I quite enjoy is the possibility to kill side NPCs (no, they are not plot critical ones so hold your horses before masturbating at the prospect of killing some plot-important NPCs). The Codex will be delighted that they can probably kill Mongrels/Tieflings that they meet just because. Meanwhile I enjoy that I can kill the fanatic/religious zealot I meet

 

[Grampy_Bone]

They could've limited the multiclassing to 2 classes like PoE and avoided both the multiclassing problem and endless redundant hybrid classes. But the damage is already done.

I'd like to see some kind of in-game justification for the class changes, like the trainers in PST. So you at least have to explore, do quests, or pay a fee to get access to multiclasses.

 

[Xamenos]

PoE

Oh, god.

Multiclassing isn't really a problem in Pathfinder anyway. Contrary to what you may have seen, it is extremely difficult to make a build with more than 2 classes that is not strictly inferior to a single classed character. Not counting Prestige classes, of course. It is one of the unambiguous improvements over base 3.5.

 

[NJClaw]

I see a lot of people (myself included) with the WotR one as their only badge. Is it because you pledged to other projects without taking part in the Codex collective pledge or is this your first pledge?

For me, this is the first one. What Owlcat did with Kingmaker was enough to warrant a blind purchase.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I see a lot of people (myself included) with the WotR one as their only badge. Is it because you pledged to other projects without taking part in the Codex collective pledge or is this your first pledge?

For me, this is the first one. What Owlcat did with Kingmaker was enough to warrant a blind purchase.

First one I crowdfunded in Codex. To begin with I think I have less than 10 pledges to begin with, most of them are not in Codex fundraiser and most of them are JRPG/VN related stuff.

PfK for me is the first time I am truly having fun playing modern CRPGs. The last time I am feeling remotely like that was NWN 2 I think? It's no brainer to me to back WoR and if I can get the Codex to get stuffs into the game why the hell not?

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, god.

Multiclassing isn't really a problem in Pathfinder anyway. Contrary to what you may have seen, it is extremely difficult to make a build with more than 2 classes that is not strictly inferior to a single classed character. Not counting Prestige classes, of course. It is one of the unambiguous improvements over base 3.5.

Multiclassing isn't a problem by design. It's intentional that you can't make a good build with more than 2 classes, as opposed to 3.5 where 4 classes was the norm. But you get the other problem of having too many same-y base classes that force you to read a whole Reader's Digest before you know what class does what in a slightly different way.

 

[Ghulgothas]

I'm too much of a newfag to give the Codex my money*, but I'm happy with my vanilla Kickstarter pledge, even if it doesn't get me a swanky badge...

Something like this made with genuine passion from a team of people with a grander vision beyond that of kowtowing to what was made before is an oddly refreshing sight in this day and age. I have genuine good faith for Owlcat, which is a rare thing indeed.

*Yet.

 

[Xamenos]

I see a lot of people (myself included) with the WotR one as their only badge. Is it because you pledged to other projects without taking part in the Codex collective pledge or is this your first pledge?

For me, this is the first one. What Owlcat did with Kingmaker was enough to warrant a blind purchase.

I'm new here. I've been burned by kickstarters in the past, and it's possible that if I'd been here a decade ago I'd have another badge (of shame) or two. WotR is the first game I've backed in years though, because Owlcat earned my trust with Kingmaker and here because I liked what you guys did with Kingmaker's Codex quest.

Multiclassing isn't a problem by design. It's intentional that you can't make a good build with more than 2 classes, as opposed to 3.5 where 4 classes was the norm. But you get the other problem of having too many same-y base classes that force you to read a whole Reader's Digest before you know what class does what in a slightly different way.

Yes, I agree completely both that multiclassing isn't a problem in Pathfinder, and that the samey classes are. But these still aren't relevant to each other.

 

[Lacrymas]

Multiclassing isn't a problem by design. It's intentional that you can't make a good build with more than 2 classes, as opposed to 3.5 where 4 classes was the norm. But you get the other problem of having too many same-y base classes that force you to read a whole Reader's Digest before you know what class does what in a slightly different way.

Yes, I agree completely both that multiclassing isn't a problem in Pathfinder, and that the samey classes are. But these still aren't relevant to each other.

They are directly linked. The amount of base classes is there so you won't feel the need to multiclass to play a character you want (divine warrior -> Paladin or Inquisitor or War Priest, instead of simply Fighter/Cleric).

 

[guestposting]

Well the Oracle, Witch and Shaman companions all play very differently. Though IIRC the witch and the shaman both got custom archetypes.

They’ve definitely hit the point of diminishing returns with additional classes. I like playing my Bloodrager, but I have no fucking idea why Bloodrager would be its own class and not just a Barbarian archetype.

 

[NJClaw]

Well the Oracle, Witch and Shaman companions all play very differently. Though IIRC the witch and the shaman both got custom archetypes.

They’ve definitely hit the point of diminishing returns with additional classes. I like playing my Bloodrager, but I have no fucking idea why Bloodrager would be its own class and not just a Barbarian archetype.

Oracle and Witch both have their peculiarities. The problem we are talking about (mostly) concerns hybrid classes and archetypes that simulates these same hybrids. It's not even that big of a deal, since you can just ignore suprefluous classes.

 

[Desiderius]

largely

But not entirely. Your thoughts always add value.

 

[Desiderius]

Well the Oracle, Witch and Shaman companions all play very differently. Though IIRC the witch and the shaman both got custom archetypes.

The custom archetypes are doing a lot of work.

Can see Ember playing out as attacking Will then nuking through Resistances using her Hex/Mythic power against tough mobs impervious to her Will. But Cackle doesn't work with Slumber or Nuking, so you're sort of missing the heart of the class, which leaves you with alot of meh Hex choices. Also missing the perfect spell to tie the two together: Archon's Aura (Evocation spell attacking Will).

The Shaman gets Battle Mystery Spirit, which is missing the three best Revelations Hexes. These classes use more rebadges than General Motors. I was shopping through the other Spirits and trying to find something worth burning that extra Spirit Mythic Power on and the pickings were slim. You've got weapon enchantment so you're committing yourself to melee action economy while most of the Spirits are about giving you alternative options for you action economy.

Looks like the Oracle is supposed to be xbowing (you find busted Oracle specific xbow around same time you meet him, and he has 7 STR), but starts out without any ranged feats. He does have the skills to make in-combat healing viable for a change and you may need it with all the mass battles. Staggered first round means casting, then shooting after.

 

[Ol'man]

Well the Oracle, Witch and Shaman companions all play very differently. Though IIRC the witch and the shaman both got custom archetypes.

The custom archetypes are doing a lot of work.

Can see Ember playing out as attacking Will then nuking through Resistances using her Hex/Mythic power against tough mobs impervious to her Will. But Cackle doesn't work with Slumber or Nuking, so you're sort of missing the heart of the class, which leaves you with alot of meh Hex choices. Also missing the perfect spell to tie the two together: Archon's Aura (Evocation spell attacking Will).

The Shaman gets Battle Mystery Spirit, which is missing the three best Revelations Hexes. These classes use more rebadges than General Motors. I was shopping through the other Spirits and trying to find something worth burning that extra Spirit Mythic Power on and the pickings were slim. You've got weapon enchantment so you're committing yourself to melee action economy while most of the Spirits are about giving you alternative options for you action economy.

Looks like the Oracle is supposed to be xbowing (you find busted Oracle specific xbow around same time you meet him, and he has 7 STR), but starts out without any ranged feats. He does have the skills to make in-combat healing viable for a change and you may need it with all the mass battles. Staggered first round means casting, then shooting after.

Cackle and slumber would be way over the top.

A no HD cap sleep without a duration.
It's even working on shit I think should be immune in the alpha, e.g. shadows, ghouls.

 

[InternalRevenue]

How do the hexes/cackle work with autocast? They couldn't be active together in the CotW version, and autocasted hexes had the annoying quirk of the witch either remaining idle after success (instead of switching to a different target) or running up to the enemy if she didn't have a ranged weapon equipped.