Pathfinder Pathfinder: WoTR - What the heck happened to female characters in this game?

[S.torch]

There are several problems with the writing of the game that I can tolerate or even defend, because it is enjoyable despite everything, however there is one exception that I can't overlook.

The only really good companions in this game are Regill, Lann, Ulbrig, Woljif and Daeran... What's the problem with that?

There is not a single female in that group.

What the hell happened to the women in this game?

While the men are nuanced, charismatic and have good chemistry with each other, the women have only two personality types: Harmless or hellish piece of scum. I mean, if you don't dislike them irredeemably, then they don't have enough charm to justify bringing any of them with you as a steady companion, they can't replace any of the male ones I mentioned above.

Ember: Her silly and somewhat lovable personality at least serves as a contrast, I guess... depending on who you take with you, I wouldn't trade Ulbrig for her honestly.

Seelah: Again, a harmless character, at least I find her story entertaining. I don't take her with me for anything else.

Arueshalae: Again, harmless. She didn't earn her place as one of the characters that people romance and love the most because she's especially interesting, but because it's either her or you go with Daeran. What I don't really like about her is the way she repents, she wants to be so good and decent that I find her very unfunny. All characters can afford to be jerks from time to time, but not her, and if you add that to her story, you're not very satisfied. I'm not convinced by the reason for her redemption and the way it all plays out...

Well, at least she's cute, being one of the few reasons to prefer her over Seelah.

Camellia and Wenduag: I'm not even going to give them a separate place because they're basically the same, but I dislike Camellia even more because I came to find her interesting, I found her venomous comments funnier than any other girl in the game, her class was useful, you can even tolerate her being a sadist at first and you want to see where this whole thing is going to go, but her story ending is so horribly bad, she's not even a crazy character that you can find her evilness entertaining, she's just really disgusting. Wenduag is just like that too, I don't know what happens if you take her and not Lann at the beginning, but when you meet her again, her fate is death, so it doesn't matter what you do, apparently.

The game seems to be made for the protagonist to be a woman, automatically making her the best girl in the whole game. It's the best decision, considering that the most powerful beings involved in the story are also women. And if you are a man, I feel you are very subdued and dominated, you should be able to command respect and be tougher.

It seems to be a constant in Owlcat's games, because in Kingmaker the female characters left a lot to be desired, while you happened to have Tristian and even the half-orc didn't seem as bad to me as Octavia (you couldn't romance Amiri or even Jaethal who were the most interesting). It makes me ask who is it that drives the story and the companions to always make that to happen.

 

[Fedora Master]

I foresee great things for this thread.

 

[Melcar]

Like we never had this conversation before.

 

[Infinitron]

Ctrl-F Nen -> 0 results

Spoiler

 

[The_Mask]

They didn't want to outshine the black paladin.

 

[Roguey]

Wenduag is just like that too, I don't know what happens if you take her and not Lann at the beginning, but when you meet her again, her fate is death, so it doesn't matter what you do, apparently.

Not so. If you're tough enough, she'll stay a loyal slave. If you're a namby pamby, she'll turn on you. Wendu wants to be dominated.

 

[Rhobar121]

I'm more wondering why half the female companions are cannibals of some sort.
Maybe it's some Russian tradition or fetish of the chief designer (or both)? Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[SpaceWizardz]

Seelah - Paladins without the zealotry isn't subversive, just boring.
Ember - Twee and saccharine "cute" kid. Her questline seems weird in a setting where good and evil are supposed to be these unchanging metaphysical forces perpetually in conflict, really just seems here to highlight how dumb the setting is.
Nenio - Quirky, socially retarded neurodivergent, I sleep.
Arue - cringe waifubait
Wenduag - cringe waifubait
CamCam - I'll applaud any attempt to push players out of the neutral good comfort zone, but her personality is just insipid and uninteresting.

 

[Rhobar121]

Ember wasn't a bad character until act 4 where she can convince a bunch of demons to be good in 5 minutes. It was so absurd that I couldn't take it seriously.

 

[Fedora Master]

This reminded me. Let's check the R34 for the game, a clear indicator of how successful it really was.

Oh boy. Oh no.

These are the harmless examples. There's a lot of Worm That Walks porn.

Thanks again, Owlcat.

 

[0sacred]

trannies.

 

[The_Mask]

Ember wasn't a bad character until act 4 where she can convince a bunch of demons to be good in 5 minutes. It was so absurd that I couldn't take it seriously.

I was told that this part was actually a thing where Nocticula ascended. Not sure if I was lied to, but I found that this was the only arc in the game where a female had something to do, and she did.

This comes with a caveat that Ember might as well be considered a child. And when a child redeems an evil character, she becomes a bit immune to criticisms. Which, in turn, is a cheap way to write. But... whatever... I found it passable enough for an RPG.

 

[octavius]

Personality is all well, but one must not forget what really matters. Do they have nice

Spoiler

stats?

 

[The_Mask]

Personality is all well, but one must not forget what really matters. Do they have nice

Spoiler

stats?

Arue 100%. She was actually considered the "sweetheart", because of how borderline OP she was. Especially in the tabletop.

The rest are fine for the classes they're meant to go for, I guess. Your mileage may vary depending on what you have planned.

 

[Cryomancer]

Personality is all well, but one must not forget what really matters. Do they have nice

Spoiler

stats?

Arueshalae is very good with any bow.

But romance wise, is not good. Imagine an escort who had tens of thousands of clients, but for you, she demands love and commitment to open her legs...

 

[octavius]

No, I can't imagine that. Romances in CRPGs are to me about as interesting as a girl's THAC0 in real life.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Those two references to the mechanical part of "womxn" that you made tell, basically, everything. When the best fighter in the setting and the best archer (at least in repentant form) are called "harmless", there is no reason to take the rest of your drivel seriously.

 

[S.torch]

Wenduag - cringe waifubait

Bro... Lmao.

No, I can't imagine that. Romances in CRPGs are to me about as interesting as a girl's THAC0 in real life.

The problem isn't really the romances, most of what I say here you don't have to access the characters' romances at all to see it. Almost everything I mention can be seen in their own quests and by progressing through the main story of the game. That's what makes it so jarring for me.

Those two references to the mechanical part of "womxn" that you made tell, basically, everything.

I'm wasn't talking about the stats and mechanics of the characters, but about their personalities.

 

[Aarwolf]

Nah, there is one interesting woman there that should be a companion - Nurah.

The rest* are subpar at best.


*) Ember is not a woman, she's a child so I don't count her here.

 

[Crichton]

I recently completed the game for the first time (LG Cleric Angel) and I spent a lot of time with Aru, Ember, Seelah + two mercs. The others were totally distasteful to me either personally (Cam, Daeran, Sosiel), mechanically (Lann, Trevor) or both (Wendung, Woljif, Nenio, evil midget melee brigade).

By the end, it was all mercs; Seelah's VO was getting on my nerves and I had lost interest in foot sloggers. This is partly the decline of the NPCs and partly the incline of the mounted mercs; riding around on giant cats is easily the best thing about this game.

 

[Delterius]

I think Daeran, Woljif and Regill take the cake. But Lann and Sosiel felt like wet blankets too. Greybor is underused and understated, unless he's interacting with Regill and Woljif. The girls are fine, what matters is wether these characters play off of each other.

Spoiler

Camellia is a genuinely bold addition to the genre. She's an evil monster who bullshits to your face, the responsibility of thinking she was redeemable in any way is on you, the player who thought with your dick. I applaud the devs for being so cheeky. It's always a delight to see what new ways Camellia will devise to be a cunt towards everybody else, wether she'll be subtle about it or bring out her she-demon's claws.

YM(will)V with Ember. She's a preacher chosen by an archon of heaven to bring hope to the crusaders and to turn demons away from the abyss with the sheer power of ridiculous naivety. She's also a bridge towards Nocticula's eventual ascension. Ember is boring on her own, but she interacts well with the other companions. Daeran is an asshole to most people, but Ember makes him act genuinely nice. Woljif's teen-esque mask of self reliance similarly melts around her. Interesting to note Camellia is an absolute cunt to her anyways. Reminder that Ember can convert demons. Again, fuck Camellia is a good evil character.

Seelah is actually a rather important and vital character as far as the plot is concerned. She's a paladin of Iomedae, but she's not a local. She hasn't grown jaded like all the others. Which means that Seelah is the only paladin in the crusade who hasn't betrayed the goddess' first commands. This synergizes especially well with the Angel story. The way I see it Seelah's personality is also good when contrasting with others. She's a laidback person who isn't a massive cunt (like paladins are supposed to be I guess), but she's still stern enough towards Woljif's thieving for an instance.

Wenduag is a hammy character and an entertaining one. Even if you choose Lann, her death afterwards show her insane personality. Wenduag is all about dominance and the need for it. To be at the top, or to gain serving whoever is. The archetypical 'evil man's dragon', only you have to prove it to her that you're the big boss. Wenduag pairs perfectly with the Demon playthrough as the concubine of whatever shape of Demon Lord you end up taking.

Arueshalae has her fans. She's a very straightforward romantic story that was especially tailored for Azatas. She's in search of her redemption and soon becomes convinced that you must be it. Again, I think Arueshalae is at her best when interacting with others. Only instead of Regill and Greybor talking about how she's a fake and should be killed, Arue has a history with the setting and suddenly become the 'Formerly Most Interesting Woman In The World' when you get to Alushnyrra. She has her moments but I didn't care for her companion interactions.

The most hilarious part of her are the bizarre projected insecurities from some players. Bro, it's a videogame. Summoning a succubus to have sex with is the oldest nerd sex fantasy there is. Arue is just that is anime form. And here you are going 'whores whores whores'.

Finally Nenio. If I had a penny for every thread I've seen of people asking stating that the comic relief character 'is actually dumb' and 'that's not how science works', I'd have 7. You're essentially talking to an autistic fox that turns out to be a robot. I didn't use Nenio a lot since I was a Wizard myself, so I don't know much about her. That said, some of Nenio's interactions were fine. A little sideshow.

 

[Rhobar121]

Ember wasn't a bad character until act 4 where she can convince a bunch of demons to be good in 5 minutes. It was so absurd that I couldn't take it seriously.

I was told that this part was actually a thing where Nocticula ascended. Not sure if I was lied to, but I found that this was the only arc in the game where a female had something to do, and she did.

This comes with a caveat that Ember might as well be considered a child. And when a child redeems an evil character, she becomes a bit immune to criticisms. Which, in turn, is a cheap way to write. But... whatever... I found it passable enough for an RPG.

I mean random demons you encounter in lower city.

 

[santino27]

Owlcat shit the bed with most of the companions this time around imo; I wouldn't hold up Lann or Woljif as particularly scintillating either. The vast majority of companions are either dull or cringeworthy comic relief. Owlcat's writing is very uneven, and especially so when it comes to their companions; either they need better writers or more oversight on said writers.

 

[Delterius]

I was told that this part was actually a thing where Nocticula ascended.

Nocticula ascends canonically and becomes the Redeemer Queen. The general tone of this change of heart is that she's had it all for so long she's come to see her own life as pointless. She's probably the most powerful and influential of the Demon Lords unless you count Lamashtu. The only way is up and side-ways a bit. So Nocticula becomes a chaotic-neutral god of artists, transgressors, and people trying to change their lives or turn a new leaf. This mirrors Runelord Sorshen, who more or less realizes that antedilluvian hyper-tyranny doesn't work in the modern age and has become very much over being the queen of lust, which is why Sorshen's country is a haven for Nocticula's new church.

So in that scene Ember is either working with something that was already there (Nocticula wanting to ascend and transmute her nature) or set the first spark of doubt. Or both. Either way she's just doing what Grandmother Crow wants more or less.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Delterius I think you nailed it. This thread should be closed.

Also, Nenio is my main arcane caster, so she is always in the party, and she is awesome. On the other hand, I myself much prefer chatting with ChatGPT than with any human being.