Pathfinder Pathfinder: WoTR - What the heck happened to female characters in this game?

[Rhobar121]

I would say character development is virtually non-existent.
Within 5 minutes of introducing a character, you know practically everything about it.

 

[The_Mask]

Spoiler

Finally Nenio. [...] You're essentially talking to an autistic fox that turns out to be a robot.

Yeah, this particular detail has filtered a lot of people for me. Good to see you're on the ball, as always.

 

[Mauman]

I was told that this part was actually a thing where Nocticula ascended.

Nocticula ascends canonically and becomes the Redeemer Queen. The general tone of this change of heart is that she's had it all for so long she's come to see her own life as pointless. She's probably the most powerful and influential of the Demon Lords unless you count Lamashtu. The only way is up and side-ways a bit. So Nocticula becomes a chaotic-neutral god of artists, transgressors, and people trying to change their lives or turn a new leaf. This mirrors Runelord Sorshen, who more or less realizes that antedilluvian hyper-tyranny doesn't work in the modern age and has become very much over being the queen of lust, which is why Sorshen's country is a haven for Nocticula's new church.

So in that scene Ember is either working with something that was already there (Nocticula wanting to ascend and transmute her nature) or set the first spark of doubt. Or both. Either way she's just doing what Grandmother Crow wants more or less.

I still maintain that the so-called "redemption" of the "redeemer queen" (who didn't actually atone for any of the immense evil she perpetrated, or sacrifice ANYTHING that didn't get immediately replaced with something better. Two of the most important parts of redemption) is one of the dumbest plot lines I've ever seen in the combined history of Pathfinder AND DnD.

Hooking Ember (who's story already didn't sit well with me) to that shit sandwhich of a story did no favors for her as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Sotomonte]

Are there romances in these games?



Funny, I don't remember starting any... I was too busy teaching the word of the Lord to foes with my paladin to pay attention to such trifles.

 

[Fedora Master]

Weird, since some of the companions will come on to you no matter what.

 

[Sotomonte]

Hmm, I remember Octavia maybe tried something when we were at the inn, but I think I told her to fuck off.

 

[Delterius]

I still maintain that the so-called "redemption" of the "redeemer queen" (who didn't actually atone for any of the immense evil she perpetrated, or sacrifice ANYTHING that didn't get immediately replaced with something better. Two of the most important parts of redemption) is one of the dumbest plot lines I've ever seen in the combined history of Pathfinder AND DnD.

It's not really worth debating because at the end of the day - good or bad - the change is just not well estabilished. No changes in the pathfinder setting that aren't part of an adventure path are well estabilished. Taldor and it's policies change rapidly and that's the plotline of War for the Crown. So it's not out of the blue.

Nocticula's ascension is all based on hints. Hints that the queen of alushnyrra can absorb the power of other demon lords. That she is about to become a goddess. That she's going to abandon her city. That she's got a cult to that effect already. That maybe she's even turning a new leaf. So you're left with 'oh Noct was gonna be a deity anyways, she just decided not to be an asshole and planned accordingly'. Players are invited to insert a headcanon in that vaccuum. Owlcat decided that was some naive martyr-preacher called Ember.

Like I said the mileage varies with Ember. I'm okay with the concept. Literature is full of scenes where prophets surprise the tyrants with their simplicity. However, all that happens in the scene is that Ember cries for Nocticula because her life is vapid, and Noct seethes a bit because it totally isn't - she has everything. That's halfway to working. What you need is for Ember to say something that makes the succubus stumble a bit. Then I'd believe the seeds of redemption have been planted. Or, maybe, the game could have made one extra decision and somehow use both Ember and Arueshalae to give Noct ideas about redemption.

I mentioned Sorshen because that's a good contrast. Her change of heart is well estabilished, right? You have two runelord adventures where Sorshen helps the players put down her peers who are still into antedilluvian mage tyranny. You might think it's because she doesn't want competition, but she doesn't make any moves to resurrect her ancient realm such as it was. We don't see her growth on screen, but at least the character we meet is already a different person.

You can argue wether Sorshen grew tired of her old life, or wether she made a calculated move to adapt to today's world. Which leaves me to one last possibility. There seem to be hints in Golarion's cosmology that gods don't just ascend because they are really powerful, they do so because they are filling a new role in the pantheon. Just as Sorshen, Nocticula wanting to become the patron god of redemption could have been (amongst other things) a conscious choice. If Desna can do it with Arueshalae, why can't the queen of the succubi do the same? It would be like temptation, only reversed.

 

[Mauman]

I still maintain that the so-called "redemption" of the "redeemer queen" (who didn't actually atone for any of the immense evil she perpetrated, or sacrifice ANYTHING that didn't get immediately replaced with something better. Two of the most important parts of redemption) is one of the dumbest plot lines I've ever seen in the combined history of Pathfinder AND DnD.

It's not really worth debating because at the end of the day - good or bad - the change is just not well estabilished. No changes in the pathfinder setting that aren't part of an adventure path are well estabilished. Taldor and it's policies change rapidly and that's the plotline of War for the Crown. So it's not out of the blue.

Nocticula's ascension is all based on hints. Hints that the queen of alushnyrra can absorb the power of other demon lords. That she is about to become a goddess. That she's going to abandon her city. That she's got a cult to that effect already. That maybe she's even turning a new leaf. So you're left with 'oh Noct was gonna be a deity anyways, she just decided not to be an asshole and planned accordingly'. Players are invited to insert a headcanon in that vaccuum. Owlcat decided that was some naive martyr-preacher called Ember.

Like I said the mileage varies with Ember. I'm okay with the concept. Literature is full of scenes where prophets surprise the tyrants with their simplicity. However, all that happens in the scene is that Ember cries for Nocticula because her life is vapid, and Noct seethes a bit because it totally isn't - she has everything. That's halfway to working. What you need is for Ember to say something that makes the succubus stumble a bit. Then I'd believe the seeds of redemption have been planted. Or, maybe, the game could have made one extra decision and somehow use both Ember and Arueshalae to give Noct ideas about redemption.

I mentioned Sorshen because that's a good contrast. Her change of heart is well estabilished, right? You have two runelord adventures where Sorshen helps the players put down her peers who are still into antedilluvian mage tyranny. You might think it's because she doesn't want competition, but she doesn't make any moves to resurrect her ancient realm such as it was. We don't see her growth on screen, but at least the character we meet is already a different person.

You can argue wether Sorshen grew tired of her old life, or wether she made a calculated move to adapt to today's world. Which leaves me to one last possibility. There seem to be hints in Golarion's cosmology that gods don't just ascend because they are really powerful, they do so because they are filling a new role in the pantheon. Just as Sorshen, Nocticula wanting to become the patron god of redemption could have been (amongst other things) a conscious choice. If Desna can do it with Arueshalae, why can't the queen of the succubi do the same? It would be like temptation, only reversed.

Because Arueshalae actively atoned for her misdeeds*. She also gave up her natural powers and didn't recieve anything in return (other than the ability to touch people without fucking them over). Nocticula gave up NOTHING (she only gained power), and didn't even attempt to atone for the bullshit and chips she was up too. Nocticula is a karma Houdini, not a case of someone who redeemed herself.

It's shit. Pure, fucking, shit.

As for hints or any other bullshit you think explains this travesty, it doesn't matter because the end result is such stupidity it boggles my mind how even the dumbest of fucktards could even remotely think it's good.

*Oh, and we could also argue that Arueshalae's redemption is not of her own free will. Which begs the question as to how authentic her actions are to begin with.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I expected better of Daeran from what I read. I'm finding him a little tedious. His dialogues the most interesting when I tell him that. Ember thus far is OK, but not up to what I was expecting either. Comparisons to come "lol-rando" anime sidekick are apt. Seelah is a bit out of place, but not bothersome other than being dumb. There character would work better as a male, like Lenny from Grapes of Wrath. Lann is like an insecure Eder from PoE who's just happy to be included. Not bad, not good. Ashrulaee is trying to be equal parts Fall-From-Grace (PST) and Aerie (BG2), but heavily discounted. Woljif is exactly as advertised. I like that he abandons you when the going gets tough. Nenio is an annoying aspie sperg. Detached stranger in a strange land can be endearing (xir?) isn't. It's like they took Ember but thought she should be a cunt. Greybor is a wannabe Clint Eastwood. Sosiel is an entirely forgettable poz snowflake. Regill is awesome. He could have turned out as another Greybor if he weren't written so well, but the writer ace'd it.

Overall, I'd say there was a general improvement KM companions surprisingly. While they all have the first appearance of being try-hard, they're much less obnoxious and in-your-face than many of the KM companions.

 

[Delterius]

Nocticula gave up NOTHING (she only gained power)

Apparently she ran a whole cult for redeeming evildoers from behind the scenes. Keyword, behind the scenes. We actively do not know anything else about Nocticula's ascension.

 

[Mauman]

Nocticula gave up NOTHING (she only gained power)

Apparently she ran a whole cult for redeeming evildoers from behind the scenes. Keyword, behind the scenes. We actively do not know anything else about Nocticula's ascension.

AGAIN.

Doesn't.....fucking.....matter.

Oh, and if you're trying to imply that it was the cult of the redeemer that was her atonement, LET ME REMIND YOU that she was giving powers to both them AND her standard followers at the time.

Telling someone to go give a little girl a candy cane and then having someone else kill and skullfuck the little girl is NOT redemption....I don't even know what to call that kind of insanity.

 

[Roguey]

Because Arueshalae actively atoned for her misdeeds. She also gave up her natural powers and didn't recieve anything in return (other than the ability to touch people without fucking them over). Nocticula gave up NOTHING (she only gained power), and didn't even attempt to atone for the bullshit and chips she was up too. Nocticula is a karma Houdini, not a case of someone who redeemed herself.

It's shit. Pure, fucking, shit.

As for hints or any other bullshit you think explains this travesty, it doesn't matter because the end result is such stupidity it boggles my mind how even the dumbest of fucktards could even remotely think it's good.

Arue transitioned to chaotic good. Nocticula transitioned to chaotic neutral, she's not good, just a non-evil artfag. "Redeemer Queen" is just obnoxious posturing/branding.

 

[Delterius]

AGAIN.

Doesn't.....fucking.....matter.

Ascension isn't about self sacrifice. It's about power. Nethys didn't sacrifice anything to become the wizard god, he was just a really good wizard. If the demigod Nocticula actively runs a cult for CN/CG and accrues enough power to become a god, then she can choose to be the queen of artists as soon as she abandons the abyss. No god has to beg for their natures or for redemption, they simply are what they are, and become unto wherever they stand in the cosmic alignment charter.

 

[Mauman]

AGAIN.

Doesn't.....fucking.....matter.

Ascension isn't about self sacrifice. It's about power. Nethys didn't sacrifice anything to become the wizard god, he was just a really good wizard. If the demigod Nocticula actively runs a cult for CN/CG and accrues enough power to become a god, then she can choose to be the queen of artists as soon as she abandons the abyss. No god has to beg for their natures or for redemption, they simply are what they are, and become unto wherever they stand in the cosmic alignment charter.

So by your logic it's ok to rape pillage and murder for millennia and face no consequences by going "meh, let's do something else now". Hell, you just said it's REWARD worthy.

Good to know.

 

[Delterius]

So by your logic it's ok to rape pillage and murder for millennia and face no consequences

The short of it is that Heaven probably disagrees. Elysium probably doesn't care as long as the result is positive. Hell only hates that the succubus queen went from one form of chaos to another. Maelstrom is whatever goes. And so on. It's down to what the realms stand for and what the individual deities want.

This isn't an abrahamic setting. There's nobody to punish anyone. There's no overgod Ao, there's no Yeshua or Allah. There's only Pharasma and her role is circumspect to the fate of mortal souls. This universe is a forgotten realms expy where gods fight a cold war over the flow of mortal choices. There's no Zeus either, so Gods are also an end unto themselves and don't really answer to anybody except their consensus that some sort of Godswar would destroy everything. So hostilities are kept to a minimum where they'll still kill each other from time to time. The universe is run by several mobster families, and each will frame their struggles for territory in a different way.

Even the Crusade is only a proxy war in the grand scheme of things, where the angelic host of one goddess of Heaven was pitted against the forces of two demon lords. But Iomedae herself doesn't - can't - take the field, and the other gods keep their aid more on the sides.

Nocticula is not just any succubus. She's the first succubus and a demigod. Her ascension is less of a redemption and more of a defection. There's nothing stopping Heaven, the Monad, or even Hell from taking umbrage at the 'redeemer queen', while Elysium is more open to her overtures. Iomedae and Abadar probably think Nocticula should be punished. And that's no different from the stance towards other CN and evil deities. Desna and Calistria probably couldn't give two shits about it, unless they have personal hangups and contentions with Nocticula. Sarenrae is going through rehab so it really depends on wether she's on valium that day.

Nonetheless the deities of good would probably unite around the idea that Lamashtu is a bigger and more pressing issue than Nocticula at the present, and that it's a good thing the succubus god chose not to be a second mother of monsters.

 

[Camel]

Surprised no one mentioned these “women” yet.

 

[Yosharian]

Seelah - Paladins without the zealotry isn't subversive, just boring.
Ember - Twee and saccharine "cute" kid. Her questline seems weird in a setting where good and evil are supposed to be these unchanging metaphysical forces perpetually in conflict, really just seems here to highlight how dumb the setting is.
Nenio - Quirky, socially retarded neurodivergent, I sleep.
Arue - cringe waifubait
Wenduag - cringe waifubait
CamCam - I'll applaud any attempt to push players out of the neutral good comfort zone, but her personality is just insipid and uninteresting.

More or less this

 

[laclongquan]

Nocticula gave up NOTHING (she only gained power)

Apparently she ran a whole cult for redeeming evildoers from behind the scenes. Keyword, behind the scenes. We actively do not know anything else about Nocticula's ascension.

AGAIN.

Doesn't.....fucking.....matter.

Oh, and if you're trying to imply that it was the cult of the redeemer that was her atonement, LET ME REMIND YOU that she was giving powers to both them AND her standard followers at the time.

Telling someone to go give a little girl a candy cane and then having someone else kill and skullfuck the little girl is NOT redemption....I don't even know what to call that kind of insanity.

Understandable Chaotic Evil actions~

Why? Because it seem so approriate (and funny) at the times. Both times~

"But they are not Chaotic Evil" you said?

Yeah well, then blame the writers. They obviously dont understand Chaotic Evilness~

 

[S.torch]

I think Daeran, Woljif and Regill take the cake. But Lann and Sosiel felt like wet blankets too. Greybor is underused and understated, unless he's interacting with Regill and Woljif. The girls are fine, what matters is wether these characters play off of each other.

Spoiler

Camellia is a genuinely bold addition to the genre. She's an evil monster who bullshits to your face, the responsibility of thinking she was redeemable in any way is on you, the player who thought with your dick. I applaud the devs for being so cheeky. It's always a delight to see what new ways Camellia will devise to be a cunt towards everybody else, wether she'll be subtle about it or bring out her she-demon's claws.

YM(will)V with Ember. She's a preacher chosen by an archon of heaven to bring hope to the crusaders and to turn demons away from the abyss with the sheer power of ridiculous naivety. She's also a bridge towards Nocticula's eventual ascension. Ember is boring on her own, but she interacts well with the other companions. Daeran is an asshole to most people, but Ember makes him act genuinely nice. Woljif's teen-esque mask of self reliance similarly melts around her. Interesting to note Camellia is an absolute cunt to her anyways. Reminder that Ember can convert demons. Again, fuck Camellia is a good evil character.

Seelah is actually a rather important and vital character as far as the plot is concerned. She's a paladin of Iomedae, but she's not a local. She hasn't grown jaded like all the others. Which means that Seelah is the only paladin in the crusade who hasn't betrayed the goddess' first commands. This synergizes especially well with the Angel story. The way I see it Seelah's personality is also good when contrasting with others. She's a laidback person who isn't a massive cunt (like paladins are supposed to be I guess), but she's still stern enough towards Woljif's thieving for an instance.

Wenduag is a hammy character and an entertaining one. Even if you choose Lann, her death afterwards show her insane personality. Wenduag is all about dominance and the need for it. To be at the top, or to gain serving whoever is. The archetypical 'evil man's dragon', only you have to prove it to her that you're the big boss. Wenduag pairs perfectly with the Demon playthrough as the concubine of whatever shape of Demon Lord you end up taking.

Arueshalae has her fans. She's a very straightforward romantic story that was especially tailored for Azatas. She's in search of her redemption and soon becomes convinced that you must be it. Again, I think Arueshalae is at her best when interacting with others. Only instead of Regill and Greybor talking about how she's a fake and should be killed, Arue has a history with the setting and suddenly become the 'Formerly Most Interesting Woman In The World' when you get to Alushnyrra. She has her moments but I didn't care for her companion interactions.

The most hilarious part of her are the bizarre projected insecurities from some players. Bro, it's a videogame. Summoning a succubus to have sex with is the oldest nerd sex fantasy there is. Arue is just that is anime form. And here you are going 'whores whores whores'.

Finally Nenio. If I had a penny for every thread I've seen of people asking stating that the comic relief character 'is actually dumb' and 'that's not how science works', I'd have 7. You're essentially talking to an autistic fox that turns out to be a robot. I didn't use Nenio a lot since I was a Wizard myself, so I don't know much about her. That said, some of Nenio's interactions were fine. A little sideshow.

How curious that the subversive aspect is exclusively centred on the female characters in the game. And look how well those characters work that they are absolutely nobody's favourites. Arushalae ends up being the most liked because she's someone enjoyable to be around.

But what kind of creepy character must you be roleplaying for to obey Wenduag and Camellia's disgusting wishes when they offer no loyalty or friendship. Those two stop showing signs of intelligence at a moment without any kind of logical line. They've both seen you exterminate the worst things and know how great your power is, and yet they decide to attack you for no very good reason. It also doesn't make sense if you're roleplaying as someone evil, since there's no point in tolerate the demands they both make as if your character is forced to comply.

 

[Delterius]

How curious that the subversive aspect is exclusively centred on the female characters in the game.

Is it?

Camellia and Daeran are both good takes on Chaotic Evil. If anything Daeran is the bigger subversion here. Camellia subverts your expectations of a companion. The player assumes that since there's a romance there must be a way to deal with this absolute fucking monster of a person. But there isn't. Meanwhile Daeran subverts your expectations of Chaotic Evil in itself. He's just a self destructive misanthrope, but he's not cackling around trying to make deals with demons. He knows that's a desperate and stupid thing to do.

Wenduag on the other hand is Chaotic Evil played straight. She is someone obsessed with power and domination, and shall yield to authority on those terms. That's why she's such a good pairing for Demon, because it's story is also all about that. It makes an extreme amount of sense for an evil person to romance Wenduag and force her into submission, especially if they are Chaotic Evil Demons themselves. I really don't know what you're talking about there. Plus, from what I recall, Wenduag can also be made to be less of an animal during her romance. Which is a stark contrast with Camellia, where the player, arguably, is choosing to fool themselves.

Ember I think is also a straightforwardly Neutral Good. The character's concept in itself is rather specific, but the personality is straightforward. She's a healer, she wants to lift people's spirits, and she wants to do good things. Where the actual subversion lies in Ember is that she's a preacher, whose 'grandma' is an archon of Heaven, and who thinks mortals need to help themselves because the gods kinda suck.

Strangely enough that's not super subversive within Pathfinder. The gods' churches and their dogma present things differently, but the gods really are fallible. The entire plot of the game demonstrates that. The gods are not all knowing and all seeing. And if anything 9 times out of 10 Ember is completely right. What saved the world was not divine intervention, but the actions of you know who.

Hell, before the WotR interpretation one paizo writer portrayed Iomedae as a down to earth goddess: the rationale went that Iomedae isn't just young, she had served Aroden whose mistakes ruined this entire era of history, and whose creed was already big on humans seeking glory and looking after themselves.

Seelah's subversion of what a paladin should be is super overstated. She used to be a thief, then she found purpose in the martial order, fulfilling Iomedae's creed. She's a knight errant, not an inquisitor. She's more laidback, but she's still firmly Lawful Good. Again, her interactions with Woljif show this pretty much. While Seelah can cut some slack for criminals who are trying to become better people, she steadfastly opposes Woljif's unabashed thievery.

Finally, as I argued Seelah is only a subversion as far as the average crusader is supposed to be jaded and paranoid, whereas Seelah is a recent arrival who still follows the goddess' first commands. 'My sword is just a tool, if I lose my heart I've lost everything' is Seelah's whole thing. In any case, she is an iconic and not even Owlcat's creation.

I can't think of a more vanilla fantasy than Arueshalae's romance story. While Nenio is comic relief played straight as well. The reasons why Nenio is the way she are surprising to say the least, but a manic fox lady who with proactive alzheimer's is not really a subversion.

All that said, from my observations of the wider normie fan community of Wrathfinder the most liked seem to be Arue and Ember. Camellia and Wenduag have their fans. Nenio and Seelah used to have haters but only a few people have the sort of OCD needed to keep that going forever.

The companions are fine tbh.

 

[S.torch]

Wenduag on the other hand is Chaotic Evil played straight. She is someone obsessed with power and domination, and shall yield to authority on those terms.

And that's why she betrays you, the most power being she has seen, for a hobo that just appears and gets slaughtered in a second.

You're just trying to rationalize the way they act when they just want to be as unpleasant as possible. Even if be doing so the characters defies her own personality, background or alignment.

By the way, Daeran is not chaotic, he is neutral. Wenduag and Camellia don't have the same alignment, which furthers proves the incoherency of these two.

All that said, from my observations of the wider normie fan community of Wrathfinder the most liked seem to be Arue and Ember.

Wrong. The most popular characters are Arueshalae, Regill and Daeran. Woljif is more popular than Camellia despite having no romance (yet).

 

[Delterius]

And that's why she betrays you

If you can't hold her respect she'll betray you, yes.

they act unpleasant

oh god oh no

By the way, Daeran is not chaotic, he is neutral.

True, which doesn't change my point. If anything, Daeran is a much bigger subversion of neutral evil than any of the girls. And a pleasant one at that.

Wrong.

Of the female ones, duh. It was my observation that the community likes Arueshalae and Ember, while Camelia and Wenduag have very dedicated fans.

 

[S.torch]

If you can't hold her respect she'll betray you, yes.

Nice deflection. First she respects power, I point out how powerful the main character is, now you switch it to she respects you. Despite the fact that the only thing that has been mentioned so far that she likes about you is your power.

If you like her, just say that you like her. There's no point in deflecting.

 

[Delterius]

If you like her, just say that you like her. There's no point in deflecting.

I don't, I generally end up killing her because it's what makes sense for the characters I play. And that's despite the fact that I like Lann even less.

Thing is Wenduag has a bunch of companion quests. They make it clear that she doesn't just respect you for your power, but that she wants you to be more like what she perceives powerful people are. Callous, ruthless, implaccable. If you're not those things then you're revealing weaknesses. It's a chaotic evil character played as straight as can be and the original argument stands. Besides, it's the same mechanic with Regill's quest. Three strikes and they betray you.

I don't find Wenduag to be likeable but she fulfills a role in this story, some people like that she's an asshole, and if the entire party was a bunch of linzis it would suck ass. You need contrast, otherwise those camp convos have no dynamic to them.

 

[Tyranicon]

Disregard cringe companions, acquire custom characters.

The fact that owlcat limits how quickly you can assemble an entire team of customs is reason enough for