Pathfinder Pathfinder: WoTR - What the heck happened to female characters in this game?

[Crichton]

Disregard cringe companions, acquire custom characters.

The fact that owlcat limits how quickly you can assemble an entire team of customs is reason enough for

The thread regulars didn't seem to care much for it, but I thought I captured it pretty well with this;

 

[mondblut]

While the men are nuanced, charismatic and have good chemistry with each other, the women have only two personality types: Harmless or hellish piece of scum.

Where are they wrong?

 

[mondblut]

The fact that owlcat limits how quickly you can assemble an entire team of customs is reason enough for

Use Toy Box. Who cares what owlcat wanted to limit? It's your game and you'll play as you want to.

 

[Desiderius]

Ctrl-F Nen -> 0 results

Spoiler

Nen is pre- (post- ?) sexual.

the responsibility of thinking she was redeemable in any way is on you, the player who thought with your dick

The ur-effeminate take. Stop thinking with your cunt and you might be able to write a compelling story arc.

Fanfic is bad enough but female resentment fanfic is the worst fanfic, especially product placed in this genre and playerbase. So sorry he didn't choose you - keep it the fuck out of our games.

 

[Desiderius]

Who cares what owlcat wanted to limit?

I do. I've got enough shit to figure out already.

I still maintain that the so-called "redemption" of the "redeemer queen" (who didn't actually atone for any of the immense evil she perpetrated, or sacrifice ANYTHING that didn't get immediately replaced with something better.

Well, RUS is Russian Orthodox and Orthodox doctrine is that Jesus did that on our behalf. The point is to turn away from evil and not let all the baggage get in your way. You let it go because the baggage is what was driving the evil in the first place.

Further Reading

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/190524.Christus_Victor

In Christ you are a new creation. Salvation is the beginning not the end of life.

Of course this made people mad which is what a lot of the New Testament is about. Noct becoming CN then? I guess. That's similar to Val staying LN. People are afraid of G because its dorky or whatever.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Even only at Mythic 3, my team of elemental barragers is working nicely. AT MC, Daeran, and Ember all throw out an AoE spell that does two forms of damage (TTT, Metamagic - Elemental Spell (Favorite Meta). They not only trigger themselves, but trigger eachother. It's only chip damage at 3d6, but it still adds up. It's only going to get more glorious. Daeran and my MC also have Elemental Assessor, which makes it go bonkers. The biggest problem is using metamagic on spontaneous casters. Slow. At least with Ember I have Sorcerous Reflex, and it overrides the casting duration. I might get it on Daeran too. Alpha strike makes a big difference in this squishy party. Woljif and Regill are tanking just fine though.

 

[S.torch]

Thing is Wenduag has a bunch of companion quests. They make it clear that she doesn't just respect you for your power, but that she wants you to be more like what she perceives powerful people are. Callous, ruthless, implaccable. If you're not those things then you're revealing weaknesses. It's a chaotic evil character played as straight as can be and the original argument stands. Besides, it's the same mechanic with Regill's quest. Three strikes and they betray you.

>"Wenduag respects power"
>"Wenduag respects you"
>"Wenduag respects a perception she has about you"
>"Daeran is not the same alignment as Camellia but that doesn't matter"
>"Regill is the same as Wenduag"
>"Camellia doesn't trick you"

You're just gaslighting at this point.

 

[Delterius]

>"Camellia doesn't trick you"

what the fuck did she 'trick' you?

 

[Sarathiour]

I think Daeran, Woljif and Regill take the cake. But Lann and Sosiel felt like wet blankets too. Greybor is underused and understated, unless he's interacting with Regill and Woljif. The girls are fine, what matters is wether these characters play off of each other.

Spoiler

Camellia is a genuinely bold addition to the genre. She's an evil monster who bullshits to your face, the responsibility of thinking she was redeemable in any way is on you, the player who thought with your dick. I applaud the devs for being so cheeky. It's always a delight to see what new ways Camellia will devise to be a cunt towards everybody else, wether she'll be subtle about it or bring out her she-demon's claws.

YM(will)V with Ember. She's a preacher chosen by an archon of heaven to bring hope to the crusaders and to turn demons away from the abyss with the sheer power of ridiculous naivety. She's also a bridge towards Nocticula's eventual ascension. Ember is boring on her own, but she interacts well with the other companions. Daeran is an asshole to most people, but Ember makes him act genuinely nice. Woljif's teen-esque mask of self reliance similarly melts around her. Interesting to note Camellia is an absolute cunt to her anyways. Reminder that Ember can convert demons. Again, fuck Camellia is a good evil character.

Seelah is actually a rather important and vital character as far as the plot is concerned. She's a paladin of Iomedae, but she's not a local. She hasn't grown jaded like all the others. Which means that Seelah is the only paladin in the crusade who hasn't betrayed the goddess' first commands. This synergizes especially well with the Angel story. The way I see it Seelah's personality is also good when contrasting with others. She's a laidback person who isn't a massive cunt (like paladins are supposed to be I guess), but she's still stern enough towards Woljif's thieving for an instance.

Wenduag is a hammy character and an entertaining one. Even if you choose Lann, her death afterwards show her insane personality. Wenduag is all about dominance and the need for it. To be at the top, or to gain serving whoever is. The archetypical 'evil man's dragon', only you have to prove it to her that you're the big boss. Wenduag pairs perfectly with the Demon playthrough as the concubine of whatever shape of Demon Lord you end up taking.

Arueshalae has her fans. She's a very straightforward romantic story that was especially tailored for Azatas. She's in search of her redemption and soon becomes convinced that you must be it. Again, I think Arueshalae is at her best when interacting with others. Only instead of Regill and Greybor talking about how she's a fake and should be killed, Arue has a history with the setting and suddenly become the 'Formerly Most Interesting Woman In The World' when you get to Alushnyrra. She has her moments but I didn't care for her companion interactions.

The most hilarious part of her are the bizarre projected insecurities from some players. Bro, it's a videogame. Summoning a succubus to have sex with is the oldest nerd sex fantasy there is. Arue is just that is anime form. And here you are going 'whores whores whores'.

Finally Nenio. If I had a penny for every thread I've seen of people asking stating that the comic relief character 'is actually dumb' and 'that's not how science works', I'd have 7. You're essentially talking to an autistic fox that turns out to be a robot. I didn't use Nenio a lot since I was a Wizard myself, so I don't know much about her. That said, some of Nenio's interactions were fine. A little sideshow.

Mostly agree with this, and I'm pretty sure the only thing people will ever remember of Sosiel is going to be "that guys that offer to suck you dick 2 minutes after meeting up for the first". Though in the same way that none of the female ever accept taking consequences for their actions, it might actually just realitisc writing and I'm the fool here.

Problem with Seelah is that she's indeed an important character for the plot, but the writer did not have the shoulders for it. She's too tame, and got a disproportional amount of pointless dialog and interjection on the level of "I guess we really are the pathfinder now" , and overall just seems written like that black female friend reddit wish they had. It's not that she's insufferable, but just not good enough for the role she was cast for. The direct comparaison with Regill really hurt.

Overall, the most aggravating characters aren't the one that are member of your party.

 

[Delterius]

"that guys that offer to suck you dick 2 minutes after meeting up for the first".

funnily enough sosiel and lann have the same problem. for some reason lines like 'oh good y'all are alright' are flagged like romance triggers. it's become a meme in the community. moreso with lann tho.

 

[Sarathiour]

Ho yeah, I remember running into those on either discord or reddit. Newer saw it in game, probably because you need to play as female for that.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

funnily enough sosiel and lann have the same problem. for some reason lines like 'oh good y'all are alright' are flagged like romance triggers. it's become a meme in the community. moreso with lann tho.

This is always a fear in games with romanceable party members. In Jade Empire (Bioware action-RPG on the original Xbox), I made sure to insult the one bisexual male character at every opportunity just to make sure that fag never came onto me.

 

[Tyranicon]

If we're being more serious about the problem of writing women in games (or media in general) it's because writers have always sucked at writing women, and the current crop of writers suck even more.

In 2023 there's only two ways to write the fairer sex:

1. Strong independent quasi-Mary Sue
2. A victim


... that's it. If you comb through most modern games, movies, tv, what have you, you'll find this to be the case. There's no nuance, no characterization beyond these two points.

Writers treat men as real people, with wants and flaws and weird little details. However, women always fall into the Mary Sue/Victim dichotomy.

And of course, the best way to show someone being strong and just plain better than men: make them a raging bitch.

For you GoT fans out there:

 

[S.torch]

what the fuck did she 'trick' you?

She lies the moment she appears.

 

[Delterius]

what the fuck did she 'trick' you?

She lies the moment she appears.

yeah and i assume the player doesn't fall for it

 

[S.torch]

the player

Irrelevant. Is the main character that can fall for it depending on what type of character he or she is. And even if he or she doesn't that doesn't mean Camellia isn't doing anything.

 

[Desiderius]

If we're being more serious about the problem of writing women in games (or media in general) it's because writers have always sucked at writing women, and the current crop of writers suck even more.

In 2023 there's only two ways to write the fairer sex:

1. Strong independent quasi-Mary Sue
2. A victim


... that's it. If you comb through most modern games, movies, tv, what have you, you'll find this to be the case. There's no nuance, no characterization beyond these two points.

Writers treat men as real people, with wants and flaws and weird little details. However, women always fall into the Mary Sue/Victim dichotomy.

And of course, the best way to show someone being strong and just plain better than men: make them a raging bitch.

For you GoT fans out there:

View attachment 35719

That’s because adventurers are male and the female ones are just men in drag.

A compelling female story needs to be about the concerns that move women, not murderhoboing and valor.

 

[Delterius]

Irrelevant

Bruh first you accuse me of 'gaslighting' you, then you say the things I'm actually talking about are irrelevant. I feel like you're treating these characters like a jilted lover desperate for flaws, believing that such things proves they are bad, when nobody else thinks like that.

 

[S.torch]

believing that such things proves they are bad

If you don't believe these things are bad then why you keep deflecting everything? So far I have only brough up facts and things these characters do. Just now I said that Camellia lies to you, which happens, and you then come up with "ok but you know it", that doesn't matter, that wasn't even the point or even denies it, you're just confirming it and then proceeding to justify it.

You first deny something, and then you try to deflect or justify it. Which is strange, is like you're having a hard time coming to terms that characters like Camellia and Wenduag are bad people, despite you saying that isn't a problem, but you just keep denying almost everything they do or shaping it into different ways until one fits the character not being so twisted. I bet you're conscious of this because otherwise you wouldn't have changed what you said so many times now. Curiously the more you defend them the more is the similarity with their irracional change of mood.

 

[Desiderius]

like a jilted lover

You have the better of this argument, but one wonders why the theme of unrequited love seems to keep popping up.

I think we can all agree that whoever eventually falls for Delterius will be a person of exquisite taste - the kind who makes the wait worthwhile.

 

[Tyranicon]

That’s because adventurers are male and the female ones are just men in drag.

A compelling female story needs to be about the concerns that move women, not murderhoboing and valor.

Modern writers are just lazy. There are plenty of compelling reasons why women, especially in a fantasy setting, would be companions on an epic adventure. Vengeance, defense of home and hearth, or simply being kidnapped. While rare, it does happen even in real life.

The laziest approach is the generic "yeah, this super buff lady is a soldier/paladin, in a medieval setting where standing armies are 40% female for some reason. They're just really that buff."

Of course, all the practical issues this would bring up (the same issues that exist in our modern armies by the way!) are swept underneath the rug.

 

[Delterius]

If you don't believe these things are bad

They aren't.

Yeah it's a shitty evil character who's also a cunt everyone she meets.

That's what the Camellia fans like about her.

No shit she lies to you, why would I deny that? That's not a refutation to the quality of the story. Would you expect a chaotic evil serial killer to be an honest and good person? I just thought that it was really weird that describing the story of the game was termed gaslighting. Like you felt judged when I talked about the hypothetical player who falls for the idea that Camellia might be redeemable with the power of romance. That she isn't is what makes her a good companion in this genre.

 

[FreeKaner]

Thing is Wenduag has a bunch of companion quests. They make it clear that she doesn't just respect you for your power, but that she wants you to be more like what she perceives powerful people are. Callous, ruthless, implaccable. If you're not those things then you're revealing weaknesses. It's a chaotic evil character played as straight as can be and the original argument stands. Besides, it's the same mechanic with Regill's quest. Three strikes and they betray you.

>"Wenduag respects power"
>"Wenduag respects you"
>"Wenduag respects a perception she has about you"
>"Daeran is not the same alignment as Camellia but that doesn't matter"
>"Regill is the same as Wenduag"
>"Camellia doesn't trick you"

You're just gaslighting at this point.

Wenduag is fun because she is the rare companion who will just bow down and obey you for your power. She is the quintessential sycophantic henchmen and that is a surprisingly rare thing in RPGs for some reason.

 

[Norfleet]

I'm more wondering why half the female companions are cannibals of some sort.

Makes sense to me. The female typically attempts to kill and eat the male. So it should be no surprise that they are cannibals of some sort.

 

[Desiderius]

rare

Ember: Her silly and somewhat lovable personality at least serves as a contrast, I guess... depending on who you take with you, I wouldn't trade Ulbrig for her honestly.

Seelah: Again, a harmless character, at least I find her story entertaining. I don't take her with me for anything else.

Arueshalae: Again, harmless. She didn't earn her place as one of the characters that people romance and love the most because she's especially interesting, but because it's either her or you go with Daeran. What I don't really like about her is the way she repents, she wants to be so good and decent that I find her very unfunny. All characters can afford to be jerks from time to time, but not her, and if you add that to her story, you're not very satisfied. I'm not convinced by the reason for her redemption and the way it all plays out...

Well, at least she's cute, being one of the few reasons to prefer her over Seelah.

Camellia and Wenduag: I'm not even going to give them a separate place because they're basically the same, but I dislike Camellia even more because I came to find her interesting, I found her venomous comments funnier than any other girl in the game, her class was useful, you can even tolerate her being a sadist at first and you want to see where this whole thing is going to go, but her story ending is so horribly bad, she's not even a crazy character that you can find her evilness entertaining, she's just really disgusting. Wenduag is just like that too, I don't know what happens if you take her and not Lann at the beginning, but when you meet her again, her fate is death, so it doesn't matter what you do, apparently.

And OP forgot Nenio. GTFOH with that rare shit. Everybody knows what's going on. EDIT: Tyranicon went on to make the same point

Games (and the literature that preceded them) used to revolve around themes of manly heroism because players (readers) were missing the opportunity for that in modern life. They still do (often badly) but now we get sex and chix injected in because, well, many gheymers are missing another kind of opportunity.

Thing is that sense of vicarious heroism can build up some of the skills to bolster rl virtues like courage and confidence (which is why all animals play, and men have always read or heard tales of valor). The fake sex and tranny shit is not getting anyone closer to having their own knuckleheads to turn off their computer at the worst possible time then laughing their asses off that make my life for one worth living.