Pathfinder Pathfinder : Kingmaker VS Wrath of the Righteous. Which one do you prefer?

[Pink Eye]

I mean, it is... Kind of how Kingmaker is a build simulator, except Chalice 2 also has good combat.

 

[Tao]

I liked the fact that for once in a cRPG you can transform/elevate yoursefl into a Lich or a demon or w/e. And that Wizards can be played as they should be thanks to all those sweet mythic powers/feats. But overall Kingmaker is a better rpg game and experience imo.

 

[Cryomancer]

Agreed Tao. IMO if you could just get such inhuman templates in a game like kingmaker, without all bloat, that would be perfect...

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Vordakai is extremely underpowered to the point of absurdity.

Pathfinder games really need Chain Contingecy spells like in BG2, more than one for powerful casters.

It does. It also has Spell Reflection, Sequencers, and other BG2 staples. I have no idea why Owlcat didn't put these spells in after showing off their spell creation tool. Even if they were homebrew, nothing was stopping that either. The biggest weakness spellcasters have in Kingmaker are physical protection. They need Shadow Shield, NWN style Premonition, Ghostly & Ethereal Visage.

Oh, and respectable AI. Sheesh.

 

[user]

Kingmaker because of the story and pacing mainly, as well as better writing.

-Prefer the crusade to kingdom management but it still disappointing and is nowhere close to HoMM, not by a longshot.
-Companions were meh in both games, but I'd chose wrath because of the ultra-cringe barbarian in P:K and because I am a regill fanboy.
-Prefer wrath when it comes to build variety, but the pacing still sucks for most mythic paths.

 

[Desiderius]

Vordakai is extremely underpowered to the point of absurdity.

Pathfinder games really need Chain Contingecy spells like in BG2, more than one for powerful casters.

It does. It also has Spell Reflection, Sequencers, and other BG2 staples. I have no idea why Owlcat didn't put these spells in after showing off their spell creation tool. Even if they were homebrew, nothing was stopping that either. The biggest weakness spellcasters have in Kingmaker are physical protection. They need Shadow Shield, NWN style Premonition, Ghostly & Ethereal Visage.

Oh, and respectable AI. Sheesh.

We tried to tell them Arcanist really needed Counterspell but that was nixed at the outset. How hard is it to just hire Holic instead of all the SJW clowns?

 

[Inhabitants of Khorinis]

The writing in WotR is just abominable. It's like they forgot to hire an editor. Every time I meet a new character, I shudder at the thought of clicking the "tell me about yourself" dialog option, knowing full well that I'm about to be bombarded by an uninteresting, poorly written, and long-winded-500-words long essay. Essentially the same problem I have with PoE games.

 

[kangaxx]

Kingmaker so far. I just can't bring myself to finish off WOTR... too many bad elements in the game, despite a few genuinely fun patches. I'm absolutely burnt out at 80h, even after I've just turned into a golden dragon and things should be heating up.

Anyone involved in the crusade management "minigame" needs to be tortured and shot. I cannot believe they put that in.

 

[likash]

Kingmaker is the better game by far.

 

[BanEvader]

Gandalf from LOTR:
- master wizard
- extremely adept with sword & staff
- has many druid-like abilities such as being able to speak with animals

You forgot hobbit diddler.

 

[Average Manatee]

Gandalf could be something like a straight level 10 wizard, he's just got some high-tier items (Glamdring and Narya) and is running around in the third age where 5 BAB happens to be godlike when Goblins and Orcs are at best level 2 or 3 fighters and Aragorn is something like a level 6 Ranger (honestly a Paladin would be more apt though). Most of the animals he interacts with are supernaturally intelligent and can understand either human or elvish speech, and are predisposed to help him because they know he's a servant of Eru. You could also assign some of his abilities as being part of his racial innates (i.e. earthly manifestation of an immortal angel).

 

[Mojobeard]

The writing in WotR is just abominable. It's like they forgot to hire an editor. Every time I meet a new character, I shudder at the thought of clicking the "tell me about yourself" dialog option, knowing full well that I'm about to be bombarded by an uninteresting, poorly written, and long-winded-500-words long essay. Essentially the same problem I have with PoE games.

They should just rename all NPCs to Storyteller.
It's the worst on subsequent playthroughs, because you have to exhaust at least some of that dialogue to get them to reveal their sidequests.

 

[plem]

I just prefer the framing of Kingmaker. being anything but a heroic white knight in WotR just never feels right, even though you can be a Lich or Demon it still feels like the "standard" role for the PC is Angel or at least good-aligned. in Kingmaker your character's motivations are a lot more neutral, you're not fighting demons in an interplanar war, you're protecting your own domain, so it feels a lot more appropriate to play evil or neutral.

 

[Cudds]

Kingmaker feels like a decently written fantasy novel with a slightly borked ending in a DnD/PF setting.

WotR feels like multiple seasons of a cheap fantasy show on Hulu (or whatever), conceived and written by cali-hipsters fresh from art college.

Not sure what happened at Owlcat for the quality of the writing and pacing to go down that hard between just two games, but it's pretty sad

 

[Zurbo]

Kingmaker was more equal to me, while Wrath was more good/bad.

I liked the crusade/demons setup more than the kingdom/blooming one.
I liked more characters in Wrath than in Kingmaker, while I also disliked more of them, compared to "ok fine" attitude to most of NPCs in Kingmaker. WotR had also much more cringe in general.
I got more fun from fights, but maybe because I understood them more, as this was my second time playing this system and I could focus on more details.

Wrath had also less "obvious filler content", like locations with one fight and one item. On the other side routes on the map were more tangled up and irritating there.

Overall I'd rather play WotR again. I liked the Mythic Paths idea, so it could be fun to try another one

 

[Desiderius]

Gandalf could be something like a straight level 10 wizard, he's just got some high-tier items (Glamdring and Narya) and is running around in the third age where 5 BAB happens to be godlike when Goblins and Orcs are at best level 2 or 3 fighters and Aragorn is something like a level 6 Ranger (honestly a Paladin would be more apt though). Most of the animals he interacts with are supernaturally intelligent and can understand either human or elvish speech, and are predisposed to help him because they know he's a servant of Eru. You could also assign some of his abilities as being part of his racial innates (i.e. earthly manifestation of an immortal angel).

Aragorn is 200 years old and led armies a hundred years before Hobbit/LotR. Lvl 6 lol.

 

[Average Manatee]

Aragorn is 200 years old and led armies a hundred years before Hobbit/LotR. Lvl 6 lol.

Pathfinder is a vastly high tier setting than LotR. Aragorn has *a* magic sword which is impressive just by being a magic sword, and everything else is basically just masterwork equipment. The fellowship isn't fighting whole armies, Boromir basically dies to like 5 Uruks because he got shot a few times. The fellowship should be absolutely fucked trying to fight anything like a Balrog or a Dragon. Maybe you could argue level 8ish Aragorn but that's about it. Any higher and he might as well be fighting armies on his own, and we have to ask why Gandalf/Saruman/Sauron aren't calling down meteor strikes or summoning Balrogs to fight. Fact of the matter is that level 15+ basically has to be reserved for Morgoth/Valar who can swat down whole cities like flies, devastate whole battlefields and summon advanced creatures. So the tier list has to look something like

lvl 15+: Valar/Morgoth
lvl 10-15: Maiar/Sauron/Balrogs/Dragons
lvl 5-10: Exceedingly powerful elves and men. I'd include the Ringwraiths here as well.
lvl 1-4: Normal men, orcs, goblins, etc.

Keep in mind by "Exceedingly powerful elves and men" I'm including the legendary ones out of the First and Second ages that DID fight Balrogs and Sauron (w/ one ring). Aragorn is strong but he's not that strong. He's a great fighter within human capabilities with a lot of endurance, he inspires his men, he can use lay on hands and knowledge of herbs. The strongest thing he can reasonably fight 1v1 without being in incredible danger is something around the level of a troll (one did require the whole fellowship to fight but it also had goblins with it).

This seems to roughly agree with me: http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2022/07/frodo-was-2nd-level-fighter.html and was written back in 1983. Think they are understatting Gandalf but Gandalf is kind of weird because on the one hand he's like an Angel but on the other hand he's essentially limited in power level by Eru to whatever is the minimum required to keep everyone alive.

 

[Desiderius]

Aragorn is 200 years old and led armies a hundred years before Hobbit/LotR. Lvl 6 lol.

Pathfinder is a vastly high tier setting than LotR. Aragorn has *a* magic sword which is impressive just by being a magic sword, and everything else is basically just masterwork equipment. The fellowship isn't fighting whole armies, Boromir basically dies to like 5 Uruks because he got shot a few times. The fellowship should be absolutely fucked trying to fight anything like a Balrog or a Dragon. Maybe you could argue level 8ish Aragorn but that's about it. Any higher and he might as well be fighting armies on his own, and we have to ask why Gandalf/Saruman/Sauron aren't calling down meteor strikes or summoning Balrogs to fight. Fact of the matter is that level 15+ basically has to be reserved for Morgoth/Valar who can swat down whole cities like flies, devastate whole battlefields and summon advanced creatures. So the tier list has to look something like

lvl 15+: Valar/Morgoth
lvl 10-15: Maiar/Sauron/Balrogs/Dragons
lvl 5-10: Exceedingly powerful elves and men. I'd include the Ringwraiths here as well.
lvl 1-4: Normal men, orcs, goblins, etc.

Keep in mind by "Exceedingly powerful elves and men" I'm including the legendary ones out of the First and Second ages that DID fight Balrogs and Sauron (w/ one ring). Aragorn is strong but he's not that strong. He's a great fighter within human capabilities with a lot of endurance, he inspires his men, he can use lay on hands and knowledge of herbs. The strongest thing he can reasonably fight 1v1 without being in incredible danger is something around the level of a troll (one did require the whole fellowship to fight but it also had goblins with it).

This seems to roughly agree with me: http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2022/07/frodo-was-2nd-level-fighter.html and was written back in 1983. Think they are understatting Gandalf but Gandalf is kind of weird because on the one hand he's like an Angel but on the other hand he's essentially limited in power level by Eru to whatever is the minimum required to keep everyone alive.

He's the Highest Man of the Age. On par with Beren, who didn't just best Sauron but Morgoth himself. With a great deal of help, sure, but that's kind of the point of the whole saga.

Aragorn struck fear into Sauron when the latter caught sight of him in the Palantir. The Numenoreans from which he descended were such a danger to the Valar themselves they had to appeal to Eru to remake the world. In original D&D the mark of your power as denoted by level was how many men you could draw to your side. Aragorn didn't just assemble a living army to challenge Sauron but a Dead one as well. And of course the two who mattered most.

 

[Average Manatee]

He's the Highest Man of the Age.

Literally not true considering that Aragorn is 6'4" while Elendil was 7'11". As Elrond says, the Blood of Numenor is all but spent (can't recall if this is a Tolkein quote or something the movies added though). It's only after Aragorn's success that he gets some kind of blessing/reinvigoration of his bloodline that lets him approach the lifespan of his ancestors. Even then he only lives to 210 years while previous Numenor kings were in the 300s.

Aragorn struck fear into Sauron when the latter caught sight of him in the Palantir.

Only because Sauron thought he had the One Ring and would turn it against him. The whole point of this part of the story is that Sauron knows a hobbit holds the ring and he sees Pippin in the Palantir before seeing Aragorn.

The Numenoreans from which he descended were such a danger to the Valar themselves they had to appeal to Eru to remake the world.

The Valar were forbidden from fighting Men. Also it's called the downfall of Numenor for a reason. They are a lot weaker by the third age.

All that said, it is true that in Tolkein's mythology that it is the case that both Morgoth and Sauron seem to continually punch below their weight when it comes to personal combat. I think the explanation is supposed to be that they put all their energy and focus into controlling/dominating/corrupting others which takes away from their ability to fight 1v1. It's possible that Aragorn might have been able to take a ring-less Sauron in a fight. Obviously Sauron isn't about to do that after what happened the first time around in the War of the Last Alliance, In the War of the Ring he doesn't even show up despite him being 100% confident he's about to win until the very end.

 

[Haplo]

I must say with all the Mythic Paths, powers, mounts and building options, Wrath is a lot more repeatable then Kingmaker.
While I liked Kingmaker's atmosphere, barony building and characters more, I'd now have a difficult time going back to it, without all these added options.

 

[razvedchiki]

2 simple steps to improve the crusade management are
- allow garrisoning of the players forts with regular armies.
- have constant deamon armies attacking the players armies/forts/making a run for drezen ( i mean real armies, not 100 cultists trying to retake drezen lol). all the demonic armies are chilling out waiting for the player to come to them. there is a balor that is supposed to be the best general ever that waits 2 chapters to bring its elite army to retake drezen OMEGA LOL.

 

[Desiderius]

I must say with all the Mythic Paths, powers, mounts and building options, Wrath is a lot more repeatable then Kingmaker.
While I liked Kingmaker's atmosphere, building and characters more, I'd now have a difficult time going back to it, without all these added options.

CotW helps, as does finally figuring out what I was trying to accomplish with KM (unlocking Advisors earlier, which also gets North Narl a lot earlier, but mainly gives you more flexibility to cover both Events and Rank-ups/Regions) which gave the whole thing a sense of urgency and interest.

Once each main advisor unlocks their secondary advisor/region it doesn’t feel so bad letting them research a Curse of whatever since the new advisor can cover the Events and they need the points anyway.

They not only left too many of the underlying mechanics opaque (which would be defensible if you were more motivated to discover them) they also left the general sense of what you’re trying to accomplish too vague, especially for new players. Leaving the mid/endgame KM unfinished meant you no longer had experienced players walking the new players thru the steps to get there.

Sounds like two contradictory takes. Basically there’s a lot going on early midgame with substantial rewards in terms of items and EXP for getting it right but its easy to miss if:

(a) you don’t take the loan

(b) you don’t fire sale every item you don’t immediately need for BP as Average Manatee suggests

because then it feels like you’re not supposed to be unlocking anything yet since you don’t have enough BP so the natural thing to do is explore, which means you’re not ranking up, which means even less you’re unlocking etc.

No wonder people think it sux. I would too if all I were doing was Events.

Anyway now that I’ve “solved” the KM it is hard to continue since I know that Region upgrades and endgame bldgs are pointless. Some of the CotW companions are pretty cool tho (Tristian has a Prestige he’s set up for that gives AoE Competence bonuses, so less need for Bard).

If I ever come back to it I’ll play TN and treat dialogue like Wrath treats Mythic path alignments (for TN no LG, CG, LE, or CE choices). Should at least cost me some artisans.

 

[Whipping Post]

Thought PF:KM was the best RPG in years, did two very thorough playthroughs, clocked hundreds of hours.

Heard they dialed the pozz up to eleven this time around so I held off until the other day when I saw it on sale for 20 bucks. Figured, why not give it a spin?

Just finished the intro dungeon. Longest intro dungeon I've seen since I was 8 years old playing Ultima Underworld for the first time, wondering when the hell I'd get out of the dungeon and everything would switch to normal isometric Ultima.

The pozz is frontloaded and laid on so thick I feel like a freshman gender studies major at Berkeley.

Haven't been able to confirm yet if this game has a world map but I'm having a hard time picturing myself slogging through much more of what is so far a gauntlet of trash mobs and trash loot, with towering walls of insipid text. This thread is making a refund sound pretty appealing.

 

[Yosharian]

Oh no

Anyway

 

[Haplo]

Yes, the game does have a world map. You'll be able to access its first parts in Act 2.

If the mobs are "trash" for you at the Shield maze, consider raising the difficulty. I hope you're playing on Hard at least?

Itemization is pretty good, btw. Not Deadfire level of good, but still very solid.