Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Barbarian]

Rogue vs Slayer which is better and why?

Rogue better defense and damage output.

Slayer better chance to hit.

Went with Rogue.

 

[Daidre]

Rogue vs Slayer which is better and why?

Best is Rogue 4/ Slayer 10/whatever

 

[Desiderius]

Slayer/Ranger Combat Style Feats unlocks Shield Master at lvl 6(!) or alternatively you can use it to get the two-weapon fighting extra attacks without the DEX requirement.

It's a very good plan, just stay Slayer so your Studied Target keeps getting better and you unlock the Advanced Rogue Talents. You even eventually get Improved Quarry (Free Action), but regular Quarry is decent with Swift Study.

I like Vanguard for Tactician, Uncanny Dodge, and eventually Vanguard's Bond gets to +2 for the team. +1 AoE isn't awful.

Beat Wrath with Vanguard Aeon MC.

Straight Barb scales well too with Reckless Stance and Inspire Ferocity.

Not clear now - are you saying the twf dual class is a good plan or that it's better to start over as pure slayer?

Unless you have a very good reason not to, yes it's better to stay single class. Barb is better for two-handed, Slayer for two-weapon, especially Shield Bash.

 

[Desiderius]

Rogue vs Slayer which is better and why?

Best is Rogue 4/ Slayer 10/whatever

Probably not. Slayer is Rogue/Ranger hybrid. The ruleset specifically warns about stacking hybrid class levels with levels from the base class. Too much duplication.

Unlike 3.5 most of the benefits of leveling in PF accrue to *class* levels rather than character level.

R4 is great for DEX-based but DEX-based Shield Bash is meh. The Shield helps make up for the lower AC of STR-based and Heavy Shields aren't finessable.

Rogue vs Slayer which is better and why?

Rogue better defense and damage output.

Slayer better chance to hit.

Went with Rogue.

How is Rogue outdamaging Slayer? At best a wash. But yes the most noticable difference with Slayer is higher chance to hit due to full BAB and Studied Target.

Main benefit of Rogue is free Finesse, DEX-to-damage and Debilitating Strike, along with Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, which is available to Slayer via Talents or Vanguard.

They're both good scouts since Slayer can pick up Trapfinding which unlike the spell Find Traps boosts *all* Perception checks and Stealth is class skill.

 

[Old Hans]

so I just finished this game as a undead bloodline sorcerer. my biggest pet peeve is that this game has has exactly 1 +5 spear and about 500 different types of dueling swords

 

[Desiderius]

so I just finished this game as a undead bloodline sorcerer. my biggest pet peeve is that this game has has exactly 1 +5 spear and about 500 different types of dueling swords

The Dueling Sword selection is in fact relatively limited and late/hidden*/not that great other than the masterpiece.

Way more Axes for instance.

* - the one you get by finishing ch 1 in time was a good combo with the original functionality of Necklace of Double Crosses. The Owlbear one is theoretically good but there are other ways to get DEX-to-dam and it's pretty late if you're relying on that source unless you cheese the fight I guess and it's only +2 anyway.

 

[Daidre]

R4 is great for DEX-based but DEX-based Shield Bash is meh. The Shield helps make up for the lower AC of STR-based and Heavy Shields aren't finessable.

Well, for me preferable Slayer's archetype is Deliverer (archer too), so rogue's goodies like evasion, Uncanny Dodge and access to ALL rogue's advanced talents are nice to have (more so in Wrath). Biggest issue is precision-damage immune enemies, and pure rogues are completely anemic against things that they can't SA. Deliverer keeps at least some part of his combat prowess in those situation with Study and Divine Anathema.
Never cared much about Quarry though. It is bad action economy at lvl 14, and nice, but rarely worth a click at lvl 19 - everything dies to select all/attack at this point against decently built and buffed party.

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah Deliverer is pretty amazing if you're LG

 

[Barbarian]

How is Rogue outdamaging Slayer? At best a wash. But yes the most noticable difference with Slayer is higher chance to hit due to full BAB and Studied Target.

Main benefit of Rogue is free Finesse, DEX-to-damage and Debilitating Strike, along with Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, which is available to Slayer via Talents or Vanguard.

They're both good scouts since Slayer can pick up Trapfinding which unlike the spell Find Traps boosts *all* Perception checks and Stealth is class skill.

I guess the math is simple for dual wielders. Rogue gets 6 attacks at level 20 with all TWF feats, with 10d6 sneak damage each(plus 2d6 situationally from amulet of double crosses). Slayer gets 7 attacks with 7d6 damage if he takes "accomplished sneak attacker" as one of his feats(plus 2d6 from the amulet situationally). Both classes have exactly the same amount of feats(1 per level), so in regards to feats that add damage it is all equal.

Only the rogue gets finesse weapon training as you say(dex to melee damage). I could add that one of the best weapons in the game is a short sword: the "Allslayer" with +5 to hit and damage, holy damage that bypasses all damage resistance and a base 17-20 critical range. You can get two exemplars of this shortsword. A rogue built around them is very effective late game. No reason for the slayer not to use them, but the damage modifier would have to be strenght and that overall is suboptimal for light weapons.

I guess you can argue the slayer hits more reliably and can take power attack line of feats, but the rogue seems to be the best potential dps.

Probably the highest melee dps potential in the game is the knife master rogue archetype.

 

[Daidre]

No reason for the slayer not to use them, but the damage modifier would have to be strenght and that overall is suboptimal for light weapons.

Another point for Rogue 4/Slayer, really. Pure rogue has middle BAB - he will be behind whole game with his number of attacks while slayer could gets 2-weapon style, or better, menacing style to save feats on Shatter Defences.
It is all about mid-game effectiveness:
4 attacks while dual-wielding - Pure Slayer lvl 6 | Rogue 4 + Slayer 3 = lvl 7 | Pure Rogue - lvl 8
6 attacks while dual-wielding - Pure Slayer lvl 11 | Rogue 4 + Slayer 8 = lvl 12 | Pure Rogue - lvl 15 (!)
7 attacks while dual-wielding - Pure Slayer lvl 16 | Rogue 4 + Slayer 13 = lvl17 | Pure Rogue - never

 

[Barbarian]

No reason for the slayer not to use them, but the damage modifier would have to be strenght and that overall is suboptimal for light weapons.

Another point for Rogue 4/Slayer, really. Pure rogue has middle BAB - he will be behind whole game with his number of attacks while slayer could gets 2-weapon style, or better, menacing style to save feats on Shatter Defences.
It is all about mid-game effectiveness:
4 attacks while dual-wielding - Pure Slayer lvl 6 | Rogue 4 + Slayer 3 = lvl 7 | Pure Rogue - lvl 8
6 attacks while dual-wielding - Pure Slayer lvl 11 | Rogue 4 + Slayer 8 = lvl 12 | Pure Rogue - lvl 15 (!)
7 attacks while dual-wielding - Pure Slayer lvl 16 | Rogue 4 + Slayer 13 = lvl17 | Pure Rogue - never

You take longer to and get less advanced talents, lose out on master strike and lose some sa dice though.

Also lose improved uncanny dodge(immunity to flanking).

For one extra attack and some more bab probably a good trade, you are right. I prefer pure class though.

 

[Desiderius]

R4 is great for DEX-based but DEX-based Shield Bash is meh. The Shield helps make up for the lower AC of STR-based and Heavy Shields aren't finessable.

Well, for me preferable Slayer's archetype is Deliverer (archer too), so rogue's goodies like evasion, Uncanny Dodge and access to ALL rogue's advanced talents are nice to have (more so in Wrath). Biggest issue is precision-damage immune enemies, and pure rogues are completely anemic against things that they can't SA. Deliverer keeps at least some part of his combat prowess in those situation with Study and Divine Anathema.
Never cared much about Quarry though. It is bad action economy at lvl 14, and nice, but rarely worth a click at lvl 19 - everything dies to select all/attack at this point against decently built and buffed party.

Quarry is *way* better in Wrath with Big Game Gloves.

People sleep on Standard actions but sometimes you have to, you know, Move. Nice to have a productive Standard and Swift to stack with it when you do. Quarry + Studied and you’re in good shape to land your iteratives the following turn.

Both Sneaks and Deliverer bonus end up being chip damage in Wrath. Deliverer first ability is actively bad to irrelevant on ranged and the second is 2d6 damage. Big whoop.

Vanguard has *so* much more I even took it for that Ranged Aeon where Uncanny Dodge doesn’t come up nearly as much.

Base Slayer also solid since you’re burning Talents on Combat Style so every other pick is good.

 

[Desiderius]

How is Rogue outdamaging Slayer? At best a wash. But yes the most noticable difference with Slayer is higher chance to hit due to full BAB and Studied Target.

Main benefit of Rogue is free Finesse, DEX-to-damage and Debilitating Strike, along with Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, which is available to Slayer via Talents or Vanguard.

They're both good scouts since Slayer can pick up Trapfinding which unlike the spell Find Traps boosts *all* Perception checks and Stealth is class skill.

I guess the math is simple for dual wielders. Rogue gets 6 attacks at level 20 with all TWF feats, with 10d6 sneak damage each(plus 2d6 situationally from amulet of double crosses). Slayer gets 7 attacks with 7d6 damage if he takes "accomplished sneak attacker" as one of his feats(plus 2d6 from the amulet situationally). Both classes have exactly the same amount of feats(1 per level), so in regards to feats that add damage it is all equal.

Only the rogue gets finesse weapon training as you say(dex to melee damage). I could add that one of the best weapons in the game is a short sword: the "Allslayer" with +5 to hit and damage, holy damage that bypasses all damage resistance and a base 17-20 critical range. You can get two exemplars of this shortsword. A rogue built around them is very effective late game. No reason for the slayer not to use them, but the damage modifier would have to be strenght and that overall is suboptimal for light weapons.

I guess you can argue the slayer hits more reliably and can take power attack line of feats, but the rogue seems to be the best potential dps.

Probably the highest melee dps potential in the game is the knife master rogue archetype.

The math:



Note the +70.

There are *so* many sources of damage in this game that your above analysis is simply obsolete. You're playing either another game from your memory or a hypothetical one and not this one.

 

[Desiderius]

Deliverer is simply worse than the base Slayer. You lose your first Slayer Talent at level two where you want to unlock your Combat Style, and another at level 10 where you would have gotten your best Advanced Talent for 2d6 whole damage.

What are you even doing?

Opportunist generates more damage than that, but you usually want the level ten Combat Style Feat there and with base Slayer you can follow up with Opportunist at lvl 12 and/or any of the other great options. Skill Focus at that point is +6 which is a lot*. As a hybrid Rogue class Slayer can cover several skills giving you more flexibility with the makeup of the rest of the party.

* -Fast Stealth is a big convenience and combined with Skill Focus lets you set up an alpha strike each fight or take out troublesome traps undetected etc. Trapfinding scales with class level/2 for both Trickery and Perception

 

[Daidre]

and another at level 10 where you would have gotten your best Advanced Talent for 2d6 whole damage.

And what Advanced talent you what so much?

~7 Divine Damage on each attack, that works not depending on SA and hits through any DR is better than a couple of Weapon Specialization feats (+4) at least. For me, I would take it any day over +4d6 sneak attack dice, for example, because of its DR avoiding properties.

Especially in Wrath, where all end game bosses and a lot of trash enemies, like swarms, are precision-immune and sport some crazy DR, making huge chunk of elemental enchantments useless.

 

[Desiderius]

and another at level 10 where you would have gotten your best Advanced Talent for 2d6 whole damage.

And what Advanced talent you what so much?

~7 Divine Damage on each attack, that works not depending on SA and hits through any DR is better than a couple of Weapon Specialization feats (+4) at least. For me, I would take it any day over +4d6 sneak attack dice, for example, because of its DR avoiding properties.

Especially in Wrath, where all end game bosses and a lot of trash enemies, like swarms, are precision-immune and sport some crazy DR, making huge chunk of elemental enchantments useless.

Combat Style Feats, Opportunist, Skill Foci, Combat Trick(s), (Improved) UD, (Improved) Evasion, Familiar, there are plenty. If he's Shield-bashing there's a ton of Feats he needs before even thinking about Weapon Spec.

Haven't seen a DR/- yet that can't simply be powered through especially STR-based as he's talking about and other DR is bypassed from Enhancement bonus.

In Wrath with Mythic Path helping That Aeon Slayer ended up trivializing the game by taking out everything in one turn, including Nahyndri or whatever, and that was Ranged (mounted on Bismuth).

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...09/owlcat_games_8th_anniversary_join_us_in_a/

Owlcat Games 8th Anniversary - Join us in a nostalgic journey into the past in this article about the making of the Kingdom UI in Pathfinder: Kingmaker!​

Greetings, Pathfinders!

Today we are celebrating an important date: the birthday of Owlcat Games! We are already 8 years old and we have released 3 amazing games: Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous and Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader. And we're not going to stop there! But before we move forward, we'd like to look back at where it all started and share the story behind the creation of the Kingdom mechanics in Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

We originally had the idea to create a mechanic to manage and develop settlements, but we were pretty vague about the implementation and visuals. We had to figure out how to make all the mechanics understandable for players while maintaining the atmosphere of the Stolen Lands. Remember that Pathfinder: Kingmaker was our studio’s first independent project. We were very passionate about the tabletop version and wanted to bring Pathfinder to life in the PC version, recreating as much as possible all the aspects of the game that resonated with fans around the world.

We talked to Mikhail Rotfort, our UI designer, about designing the Kingdom Management UI, and this is what he had to say:

“At first I developed a design variant in which I tried to make a simple and clear interface, exposing all possible mechanics. Obviously, at that time it was not about beauty, I just wanted to convey the idea and get the basic functionality working. I had originally planned to use a region map, but there was a question of how best to place the event and task cards.”



The first drafts of the settlements looked like this:



“As soon as the draft versions of the kingdom were ready, I went to show them to the creative director. I was very proud of myself, because I’d achieved such a minimalistic and clear design! But to my disappointment, the creative director criticized the resulting version. According to the team, this design did not feel like a kingdom, everything looked boring, faded and incomprehensible. I did not want to accept criticism for a long time, argued and defended my work. Now I realize that everything worked out just fine and the design needed to be revised, but back then it seemed to me that my work was being devalued and I took great offense. But thanks to the team's persistence, I realized that they were right and we needed to look for a different approach.”

And for the second time, Mikhail approached the task as creatively as possible:

“I printed out the global map on A4 sheets and glued them together to keep the scale. After laying it all out on the floor, I thought about the next step. Luckily, I had an Inis board game handy, and the city figures were perfect for marking out settlement sites.

I photographed the result from all sides and transferred it to my computer to further refine the interface design. The figures from the board game added volume to the kingdom and helped shape the future visuals.”

This is how the design of the cities began to emerge:



Then the time came to think about the design of the event cards:

“The interface image gradually started to emerge, and keeping in mind the desires of the team, I had to think of a way to create the right atmosphere and give the design even more depth. After trying many options, I settled on the scrolls idea.”



“When it came to the character cards, I was a bit stumped. But again, visualization helped: I printed out all the characters and arranged them on stands. Thanks to that, I figured out what the advisor selection interface would look like.”




You may have noticed that the advisor selection in Pathfinder: Kingmaker ended up looking a lot like the one in the photo above.

We had the advisors and cards, and it was just a matter of technique to finalize the design:



“When the draft of these options was finished, I went to the creative director again for approval. And this time, the work was accepted with almost no edits. The new design turned out to be user-friendly, clear and authentic. After discussing all the details, most of the ideas went into development.”

Mikhail himself is proud of the result. And despite the fact that the Kingdom Management mechanic has found many opponents, it has also gained a large number of fans. And it's all thanks to Mikhail, who in a creative rush spent hours crawling around the floor gluing a map together, using every possible approach and resource, and taking photos from every angle to create the familiar and beloved Kingdom Management design that players have come to love.





We hope you've had fun peeking behind the curtain of our development process, and that this story inspires you to approach work tasks creatively. We wish you brilliant ideas and the right tools for the job!

 

[Barbarian]

How is Rogue outdamaging Slayer? At best a wash. But yes the most noticable difference with Slayer is higher chance to hit due to full BAB and Studied Target.

Main benefit of Rogue is free Finesse, DEX-to-damage and Debilitating Strike, along with Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, which is available to Slayer via Talents or Vanguard.

They're both good scouts since Slayer can pick up Trapfinding which unlike the spell Find Traps boosts *all* Perception checks and Stealth is class skill.

I guess the math is simple for dual wielders. Rogue gets 6 attacks at level 20 with all TWF feats, with 10d6 sneak damage each(plus 2d6 situationally from amulet of double crosses). Slayer gets 7 attacks with 7d6 damage if he takes "accomplished sneak attacker" as one of his feats(plus 2d6 from the amulet situationally). Both classes have exactly the same amount of feats(1 per level), so in regards to feats that add damage it is all equal.

Only the rogue gets finesse weapon training as you say(dex to melee damage). I could add that one of the best weapons in the game is a short sword: the "Allslayer" with +5 to hit and damage, holy damage that bypasses all damage resistance and a base 17-20 critical range. You can get two exemplars of this shortsword. A rogue built around them is very effective late game. No reason for the slayer not to use them, but the damage modifier would have to be strenght and that overall is suboptimal for light weapons.

I guess you can argue the slayer hits more reliably and can take power attack line of feats, but the rogue seems to be the best potential dps.

Probably the highest melee dps potential in the game is the knife master rogue archetype.

The math:

View attachment 50683

Note the +70.

There are *so* many sources of damage in this game that your above analysis is simply obsolete. You're playing either another game from your memory or a hypothetical one and not this one.

Ok, but we were talking about base class features(though I did mention the allslayer, mybad).

My point being that not taking into account gear, magic and etc rogues do have the highest melee dps potential.

 

[Barbarian]

Magical vestment spell is bugged and adds ac to armor which is already magical(i.e: a +5 suit armor enhanced by the spell at highest level becomes +10).

 

[Desiderius]

Magical vestment spell is bugged and adds ac to armor which is already magical(i.e: a +5 suit armor enhanced by the spell at highest level becomes +10).

That was fixed in Wrath. Make sure to check in KM.

 

[Desiderius]

How is Rogue outdamaging Slayer? At best a wash. But yes the most noticable difference with Slayer is higher chance to hit due to full BAB and Studied Target.

Main benefit of Rogue is free Finesse, DEX-to-damage and Debilitating Strike, along with Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, which is available to Slayer via Talents or Vanguard.

They're both good scouts since Slayer can pick up Trapfinding which unlike the spell Find Traps boosts *all* Perception checks and Stealth is class skill.

I guess the math is simple for dual wielders. Rogue gets 6 attacks at level 20 with all TWF feats, with 10d6 sneak damage each(plus 2d6 situationally from amulet of double crosses). Slayer gets 7 attacks with 7d6 damage if he takes "accomplished sneak attacker" as one of his feats(plus 2d6 from the amulet situationally). Both classes have exactly the same amount of feats(1 per level), so in regards to feats that add damage it is all equal.

Only the rogue gets finesse weapon training as you say(dex to melee damage). I could add that one of the best weapons in the game is a short sword: the "Allslayer" with +5 to hit and damage, holy damage that bypasses all damage resistance and a base 17-20 critical range. You can get two exemplars of this shortsword. A rogue built around them is very effective late game. No reason for the slayer not to use them, but the damage modifier would have to be strenght and that overall is suboptimal for light weapons.

I guess you can argue the slayer hits more reliably and can take power attack line of feats, but the rogue seems to be the best potential dps.

Probably the highest melee dps potential in the game is the knife master rogue archetype.

The math:

View attachment 50683

Note the +70.

There are *so* many sources of damage in this game that your above analysis is simply obsolete. You're playing either another game from your memory or a hypothetical one and not this one.

Ok, but we were talking about base class features(though I did mention the allslayer, mybad).

My point being that not taking into account gear, magic and etc rogues do have the highest melee dps potential.

Take them into account. You have a party.

 

[Barbarian]

Magical vestment spell is bugged and adds ac to armor which is already magical(i.e: a +5 suit armor enhanced by the spell at highest level becomes +10).

That was fixed in Wrath. Make sure to check in KM.

Not fixed in KM. Makes it a pretty powerful spell.

 

[Average Manatee]

It is stupidly strong. Though I kind of like how it balances out since IIRC it requires you to have a real armor and shield on rather than robes or mage armor/shield (from alchemist). This is a soft nerf to already easymode AC characters like pajama tanks and pets. If you can call the lack of buff a nerf.

 

[Desiderius]

Item slots are good ackshually.

Armor/Shield was already fine. Unarmored isn't costless. Bad meme is bad.

Yes Vestment stacking is nice to get even more Armor on the tank and make other toons also tanky if your play is sloppy, but AC is rarely a limiting factor. Vestment only hits +2 at lvl 8 and by that time the game is already getting easier.

Magic Weapon, Greater stacking in Wrath had a much bigger impact since it made most DR tirivial.

 

[Desiderius]

Magical vestment spell is bugged and adds ac to armor which is already magical(i.e: a +5 suit armor enhanced by the spell at highest level becomes +10).

That was fixed in Wrath. Make sure to check in KM.

Not fixed in KM. Makes it a pretty powerful spell.

It's a convenient spell because it lasts forever but it also takes up slots at a valuable spell level.