Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Eh, I think you're underestimating Val's defensive potential.
Shield spell is +4 AC, period. Tower Shield can go up to +9 AC (at +5) +2 Greater Shield Focus, +1/2 Shield Wall teamwork. So that's up to 8/9 AC more. Also her class removes the attack penalty at level 5.
True, for her to tank anything remotely dangerous above Normal, you have to buff the shit out of her (Barkskin, Shield of Faith, Blur, Magic Vestment, maybe Cat's Grace, Protection from Evil) and give her all best defensive stuff (including Dex increasing items, as her class also increases Dex bonus allowance for armor and Tower Shields).

You could go crazy, keep her weapon hand empty and go for the Crane Style defensive feats. That might be going too far though, I think. Particularly that there is supposedly a +3 dodge AC dagger for hardcore defense mode somewhere out there.

So IMO just mix her Tower Shield Specialist with Stalwart Defender, when available. Later on you can dip Vivi for a little extra Natural Armor, sneak attack and Dex or Str.
Offense wise, I mainly use her for Dazzling Display aoe shaken.

Of course a custom made, optimized defender build would be considerably better. And her Will save is a pain.


Edit: Jaethal's immunities are great, but I don't think she can hold a candle to Val AC-wise.

Look, I finished chapter one with her tanking, and she performed poorly. It's great that she's finally becoming good at it at a high level... but who's playing the game until then? I didn't have someone who could cast Barkskin, Blur etc in chapter one. You? All those builds that take 10 or even more levels before they stop being worthless are... crap. For me it's more about being able to tank (or kill stuff quick) when it counts at the begginning, looking at higher levels I'm certain jaethal can be just as good - better actually due to better stats and irrelevant will saves - after all, nothing stops you to do all that stuff with Jaethal as well.

In addition to NOT being able to survive, Val also contributed hardly anything to the offense. Now in the new run with her fighter 1/sorc 2 she has the same AC should would have with tower shield (at that level) but actually kills things. She also has Enlarge. And when she reaches the level where she would have had equipment like that +5 tower shield you mentioned she will have sorcerer casting granting survivabilty and far more utility / offensive power than she would have as a fighter. So, no I don't underestimate her potential to finally be able to tank at level X, I merely don't see her performing at all in chapter 1 and 2. If you know how to build her so she can perform that role on hard in ch1/2 then spill the beans.

My question regarding her wasn't to tank or not to tank (answer is no imo) but whether to go for 4 dragon disciple to get that +4str +2ac or to go for EK immediately. Sometimes when sufficient defense isn't achievable (early enough), overwhelming offense is the only feasible way.

Jaethal I already gave back to back so she always has +2ac when flanked, the question is stay inquisitor or go something else. Go fighter for more feats to get improved unarmed fighting and crane style? Go cleric? How to increase her tankiness as quickly as possible? If you go s&b ranger will l6 shield master counter the penalty from tower shields? Ranger would let her cast barkskin for instance and lead blades.

 

[Serus]

Eh, I think you're underestimating Val's defensive potential.
Shield spell is +4 AC, period. Tower Shield can go up to +9 AC (at +5) +2 Greater Shield Focus, +1/2 Shield Wall teamwork. So that's up to 8/9 AC more. Also her class removes the attack penalty at level 5.
True, for her to tank anything remotely dangerous above Normal, you have to buff the shit out of her (Barkskin, Shield of Faith, Blur, Magic Vestment, maybe Cat's Grace, Protection from Evil) and give her all best defensive stuff (including Dex increasing items, as her class also increases Dex bonus allowance for armor and Tower Shields).

You could go crazy, keep her weapon hand empty and go for the Crane Style defensive feats. That might be going too far though, I think. Particularly that there is supposedly a +3 dodge AC dagger for hardcore defense mode somewhere out there.

So IMO just mix her Tower Shield Specialist with Stalwart Defender, when available. Later on you can dip Vivi for a little extra Natural Armor, sneak attack and Dex or Str.
Offense wise, I mainly use her for Dazzling Display aoe shaken.

Of course a custom made, optimized defender build would be considerably better. And her Will save is a pain.


Edit: Jaethal's immunities are great, but I don't think she can hold a candle to Val AC-wise.

Look, I finished chapter one with her tanking, and she performed poorly. It's great that she's finally becoming good at it at a high level... but who's playing the game until then? I didn't have someone who could cast Barkskin, Blur etc in chapter one. You? All those builds that take 10 or even more levels before they stop being worthless are... crap. For me it's more about being able to tank (or kill stuff quick) when it counts at the begginning, looking at higher levels I'm certain jaethal can be just as good - better actually due to better stats and irrelevant will saves - after all, nothing stops you to do all that stuff with Jaethal as well.

In addition to NOT being able to survive, Val also contributed hardly anything to the offense. Now in the new run with her fighter 1/sorc 2 she has the same AC should would have with tower shield (at that level) but actually kills things. She also has Enlarge. And when she reaches the level where she would have had equipment like that +5 tower shield you mentioned she will have sorcerer casting granting survivabilty and far more utility / offensive power than she would have as a fighter. So, no I don't underestimate her potential to finally be able to tank at level X, I merely don't see her performing at all in chapter 1 and 2. If you know how to build her so she can perform that role on hard in ch1/2 then spill the beans.

My question regarding her wasn't to tank or not to tank (answer is no imo) but whether to go for 4 dragon disciple to get that +4str +2ac or to go for EK immediately. Sometimes when sufficient defense isn't achievable (early enough), overwhelming offense is the only feasible way.

Jaethal I already gave back to back so she always has +2ac when flanked, the question is stay inquisitor or go something else. Go fighter for more feats to get improved unarmed fighting and crane style? Go cleric? How to increase her tankiness as quickly as possible? If you go s&b ranger will l6 shield master counter the penalty from tower shields? Ranger would let her cast barkskin for instance and lead blades.

But if you are going to make her to a Sorcerer, isn't it better to simply make a character from scratch to replace her? If you do you will end with a party member better than both Valerie-the-Original and Valerie-made-Sorcerer could be. From power-gaming and min/maxing perspective it's superior to making her Sorcerer. And if you care about larping then it doesn't make sense to make her a sorcerer either. I just fail too see any point of view from where making here sorcerer is the optimal choice.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

But if you are going to make her to a Sorcerer, isn't it better to just straight make a character to replace her from scratch? If you do you will get a party member better than both Valerie-the-Original and Valerie-made-Sorcerer could be. From power-gaming and min/maxing perspective it's superior to making her Sorcerer. And if you care about larping then it doesn't make sense to make her a sorcerer either. I just fail too see any point of view from where making here sorcerer is the optimal choice.

Gish Sorcerer is just an attempt to make do with her stat spread in a better manner than leaving her to be a fighter. Of course a custom toon is better, but since the game is new, for the time being I'd like to play with the official companions.

 

[Sheepherder]

Valerie can tank just fine. At level 2 take monk and crane style (works with weapons), later get mobility to 3, boom @ lvl 3: +4 AC from defensive fighting, +4 shield, +9 armor, +1 dodge, +1 ring, +1 amulet, maybe +1 armor focus.
29-30 AC at lv3 is good enough and she keeps getting better with levels too.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Works well on normal.

 

[Haplo]

Eh, I think you're underestimating Val's defensive potential.
Shield spell is +4 AC, period. Tower Shield can go up to +9 AC (at +5) +2 Greater Shield Focus, +1/2 Shield Wall teamwork. So that's up to 8/9 AC more. Also her class removes the attack penalty at level 5.
True, for her to tank anything remotely dangerous above Normal, you have to buff the shit out of her (Barkskin, Shield of Faith, Blur, Magic Vestment, maybe Cat's Grace, Protection from Evil) and give her all best defensive stuff (including Dex increasing items, as her class also increases Dex bonus allowance for armor and Tower Shields).

You could go crazy, keep her weapon hand empty and go for the Crane Style defensive feats. That might be going too far though, I think. Particularly that there is supposedly a +3 dodge AC dagger for hardcore defense mode somewhere out there.

So IMO just mix her Tower Shield Specialist with Stalwart Defender, when available. Later on you can dip Vivi for a little extra Natural Armor, sneak attack and Dex or Str.
Offense wise, I mainly use her for Dazzling Display aoe shaken.

Of course a custom made, optimized defender build would be considerably better. And her Will save is a pain.


Edit: Jaethal's immunities are great, but I don't think she can hold a candle to Val AC-wise.

Look, I finished chapter one with her tanking, and she performed poorly. It's great that she's finally becoming good at it at a high level... but who's playing the game until then? I didn't have someone who could cast Barkskin, Blur etc in chapter one. You? All those builds that take 10 or even more levels before they stop being worthless are... crap. For me it's more about being able to tank (or kill stuff quick) when it counts at the begginning, looking at higher levels I'm certain jaethal can be just as good - better actually due to better stats and irrelevant will saves - after all, nothing stops you to do all that stuff with Jaethal as well.

In addition to NOT being able to survive, Val also contributed hardly anything to the offense. Now in the new run with her fighter 1/sorc 2 she has the same AC should would have with tower shield (at that level) but actually kills things. She also has Enlarge. And when she reaches the level where she would have had equipment like that +5 tower shield you mentioned she will have sorcerer casting granting survivabilty and far more utility / offensive power than she would have as a fighter. So, no I don't underestimate her potential to finally be able to tank at level X, I merely don't see her performing at all in chapter 1 and 2. If you know how to build her so she can perform that role on hard in ch1/2 then spill the beans.

My question regarding her wasn't to tank or not to tank (answer is no imo) but whether to go for 4 dragon disciple to get that +4str +2ac or to go for EK immediately. Sometimes when sufficient defense isn't achievable (early enough), overwhelming offense is the only feasible way.

Jaethal I already gave back to back so she always has +2ac when flanked, the question is stay inquisitor or go something else. Go fighter for more feats to get improved unarmed fighting and crane style? Go cleric? How to increase her tankiness as quickly as possible? If you go s&b ranger will l6 shield master counter the penalty from tower shields? Ranger would let her cast barkskin for instance and lead blades.

Well, Valerie wasn't exactly an immovable object for me in Chapter I... but she did buy valuable time for the rest of my party to eliminate at least the main enemy threats. Was receiving hits/crits at a noticably lesser rate then the rest of the party.
But, and that is perhaps an important distinction, I only play on Challenging, so things might be different on Hard.

As for the buffs, Barkskin.. well, only my Vivi had a personal version. Plus after beating Stag Lord, his armor lets me cast it 1/day. But I did give Valerie the +1 Natural Armor amulet as soon as I found 1, so at that level she was only missing 1 AC. Blur... at the end my casters were able to use it, but didn't really. Too few slots, too short duration, too little effect.

And once more, no Jaethal can't touch Valerie's AC or her number of HPs (which you nerfed by going Sorc).

She offers little in the way of damage, sure. Particularly that you should devote almost all of her feats towards defense if you want her to tank. But her aoe shaking all enemies with Dazzling Display helps reduce enemy AB and was helpful to land other stuff.

Dragon Disciple is a trap, IMO. Delays spellcasting (and Bloodline powers) for little gain. But I'm not sold on the EK either.

Frankly, other then Valerie, I don't see any viable Defender role candidate among the companions. There are always big trade-offs. Is Crane Style better then a Shield? No. Unless you maybe want to go no weapon in the main hand. Other classes don't let you use +5 Dex AC bonus on top of Fullplate and Tower Shield.
But you can of course make an optimized custom character, if you fancy that.

Sorry, there is one option I guess: buffed Animal Companions, like leopard. I hear they are solid tanks and damage dealers. So maybe you should have went Sylvan Sorcerer?

 

[Elex]

i don’t think something can face tank at unfair.

 

[Shadenuat]

Valerie is like a long term genetics project by holy Emperor. Especially with her haircut.

Her personal quests gives her

Spoiler

+2 inherent bonus to STR and CHA, making her stat line 16-14-20-9-10-18

And that might be not the end of it, since

Spoiler

she needs higher wisdom to cast paladin spells, meaning there might be yet another upgrade in chapter 6, or an alternative path making her even stronger

 

[Cael]

Let's be clear here: Dragon Disciple, as it was originally in the 3.5 DMG, is a melee specialist. It is NOT a caster PrC. Even its pre-requisites only required that you are able to cast arcane spells spontaneously without any referrence to spell levels. It was basically aimed at fighters with only 1 level of bard or sorcerer.

It gave a high Will and Fort save to fighter types.
It gave d12 HD.
It gave a ton of stat bonuses (+8 Str being the big one, but the +4 Con is nothing to sneeze at either; +2 Int/Cha was just gravy).
It gave +4 natural AC that stacked with everything.
It gave immunity to a single element and a matching breath weapon.
It also gave Dragon traits at level 10 (i.e., immunity to paralysis, darkvision, low light vision, etc.).
It gave a few other bits and pieces like wings, and basically allowed you to cast your 2 level 1 spells +7 times if you went sorcerer.

All for the low, low price of 4 BAB and whatever else 11 extra levels of your fighter class would have given you.

It never gave spellcasting ability or progression. If you want to play DD, play it as a fighter type and I think you'll be more content with it.

 

[panda]

Look, I finished chapter one with her tanking, and she performed poorly. It's great that she's finally becoming good at it at a high level...

Idk, i think she's good tank right from the very start. The only difference on higher levels is that she becomes capable of killing mobs herself.
But if 38 AC at lvl4 is poor tanking for you, then it can't be helped.

 

[hell bovine]

But if you are going to make her to a Sorcerer, isn't it better to just straight make a character to replace her from scratch? If you do you will get a party member better than both Valerie-the-Original and Valerie-made-Sorcerer could be. From power-gaming and min/maxing perspective it's superior to making her Sorcerer. And if you care about larping then it doesn't make sense to make her a sorcerer either. I just fail too see any point of view from where making here sorcerer is the optimal choice.

Gish Sorcerer is just an attempt to make do with her stat spread in a better manner than leaving her to be a fighter. Of course a custom toon is better, but since the game is new, for the time being I'd like to play with the official companions.

Eh, with her meager (for a sorcerer) charisma it will likely screw her up even more in the long run. If you turn her into a feyspeaker druid (doesn't make sense roleplaying wise, though) and pick up the mastodon as animal companion, you get a passable spellcaster (with barkskin) and a tank at the same time.

 

[Urthor]

So are there any CC/aggro manipulation skills for Valeria at all, in the entire game, that allow her to tank for the party? Found zero fighter feats up through lvl 11 that do it, and I don't see any in stalwart tree that allows her to attract minion aggro.

Leads to a lot of save reload on juggling boss aggro but I can't blame Owlcat after Pillars of Eternity's hopeless aggro system.

 

[Serus]

But if you are going to make her to a Sorcerer, isn't it better to just straight make a character to replace her from scratch? If you do you will get a party member better than both Valerie-the-Original and Valerie-made-Sorcerer could be. From power-gaming and min/maxing perspective it's superior to making her Sorcerer. And if you care about larping then it doesn't make sense to make her a sorcerer either. I just fail too see any point of view from where making here sorcerer is the optimal choice.

Gish Sorcerer is just an attempt to make do with her stat spread in a better manner than leaving her to be a fighter. Of course a custom toon is better, but since the game is new, for the time being I'd like to play with the official companions.

Eh, with her meager (for a sorcerer) charisma it will likely screw her up even more in the long run. If you turn her into a feyspeaker druid (doesn't make sense roleplaying wise, though) and pick up the mastodon as animal companion, you get a passable spellcaster (with barkskin) and a tank at the same time.

Agree, from all the options proposed to change her drastically - Feyspeaker Druid sounds as the best one to me as well. She starts lawful neutral, right? So she can do it in pathfinder.

 

[Serus]

So are there any CC/aggro manipulation skills for Valeria at all, in the entire game, that allow her to tank for the party? Found zero fighter feats up through lvl 11 that do it, and I don't see any in stalwart tree that allows her to attract minion aggro.

Leads to a lot of save reload on juggling boss aggro but I can't blame Owlcat after Pillars of Eternity's hopeless aggro system.

The main aggro manipulation skill for Valerie is to charge with her first with everyone behind far enough for the (dumb) AI to have time to focus on her.

 

[Yosharian]

Look, I finished chapter one with her tanking, and she performed poorly. It's great that she's finally becoming good at it at a high level...

Idk, i think she's good tank right from the very start. The only difference on higher levels is that she becomes capable of killing mobs herself.
But if 38 AC at lvl4 is poor tanking for you, then it can't be helped.

Could you explain how you've gotten her to 38 AC at level 4?

I suspect you're just piling on a ton of AC buffs from other characters...

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Idk, i think she's good tank right from the very start. The only difference on higher levels is that she becomes capable of killing mobs herself.
But if 38 AC at lvl4 is poor tanking for you, then it can't be helped.

38 AC? How?
I had on her: 10 + 9 (armor) + 4 (towershield) + 4 def fighting with 3 mobility and crane style +1 ring +1 amulett = 29
Perhaps you'll have 30 if you managed to get dodge or armor focus as well.
On normal that was OK, still a pain in some encounters but generally serviceable. On hard it is absolutely not sufficient.

Have you played on hard difficulty and experienced her fantastic survivability first hand? Perhaps you should, so you can understand what I'm talking about. We're not only talking about "doesn't survive the encounter" but "dies within the first combat round" territory here. While doing no damage and wandering off frightened way too often. Of course that's not happening every single encounter but it happens too often, so it greatly annoys.

But with 38AC it would have been better, no doubt. So, how exactly do I get 38AC at level 4?

Eh, with her meager (for a sorcerer) charisma it will likely screw her up even more in the long run. If you turn her into a feyspeaker druid (doesn't make sense roleplaying wise, though) and pick up the mastodon as animal companion, you get a passable spellcaster (with barkskin) and a tank at the same time.

Charisma druid with overpowered pet - good idea.

As for the DD stuff above, irrelevant, in this game DD gives caster level progression. The first 4 levels give +4str, +2ac and +3 caster levels. I was just pondering whether it might be worth it for a melee char who's a bit too low on the STR side to give up that 1 caster level.

 

[panda]

Here we go again

I suspect you're just piling on a ton of AC buffs from other characters...

Unless you consider 3 most basic buffs as a ton i think it is ok.

Have you played on hard difficulty and experienced her fantastic survivability first hand? Perhaps you should, so you can understand what I'm talking about. We're not only talking about "doesn't survive the encounter" but "dies within the first combat round" territory here. While doing no damage and wandering off frightened way too often. Of course that's not happening every single encounter but it happens too often, so it greatly annoys.

To be fair i switched to hard only in chapter 3 because the game become piss poor easy, but 38 should be enough for everything apart Owlbear and rats IIRC.
And before that i think i played on what they call "challenging" now

 

[Smashing Axe]

Valerie is like a long term genetics project by holy Emperor. Especially with her haircut.

Her personal quests gives her

Spoiler

+2 inherent bonus to STR and CHA, making her stat line 16-14-20-9-10-18

And that might be not the end of it, since

Spoiler

she needs higher wisdom to cast paladin spells, meaning there might be yet another upgrade in chapter 6, or an alternative path making her even stronger

Spoiler

Paladins cast from Charisma in Pathfinder, not Wisdom

 

[vazha]

My DD is very very strong. It's a great build, viable throughout the entire game. Much better than Yosharian's ones. :murmurs softly:

 

[sebas]

My DD is very very strong. It's a great build, viable throughout the entire game. Much better than Yosharian's ones. :murmurs softly:

DD?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

In my first run Valerie was my main tank at all times. But Ekun's dog also can be a decent tank alongside her. Of course he's not as good, but Valerie I give every stat boosting AC equipment and take all defensive feats. In my current run I gave both Amiri and Jaethal 6 ft. melee weapons so they can actually stand well behind her and still flank enemies. Valerie takes some damage but much, much less than the rest of the party. Her AC is only 31 or 33 at level 5 but I will switch her to Stalwart Defender as soon as I can. For tougher fights, I can buff her with either a Barkskin or Blur, and I always have her Fighting Defensively. She does little damage but lets my other melee characters take out the enemies while they focus on her. I have her at the very top of my formation with my 3 melees a bit behind her, so enemies always gang up on Valerie first, and then I come in and flank. It's an effective strategy on Challenging so far, with Death's Door enabled.

Speaking of Death's Door, what do you guys think about it? Makes it too easy? I'm only at the start of Chapter 2 so I'm wondering how much characters can actually die (which is a good thing, adds to the challenge) with Death's Door enabled. Maybe I should turn it off? Thoughts/opinions?

 

[Lawntoilet]

I figured that Valeria can't tank for shit (above normal).

Lvl 12 with subpar gear(i've found stuff for another +3 several hours later), defensive mode deactivated.
And she took this shit down one on one in 6 rounds. Buffed of course, but still...

In D&D a tank is generally not something that can not get hit. It's something that can survive being hit. The reason is that the Attack bonuses of monsters can quickly go through the roof and especially in this game they do.

This is also true. You'll need hp too, not AC only.

Can you break down her AC for me? I'm level 10 and she only has 51 with Defensive Style and Defensive Stance active.

 

[Sacred82]

Pretty much yes (need to turn on the visibility of feats you don't qualify for yet). You also see a nice chart of class progression.

But still, I'd not say its particularly noob friendly.
You don't see anything about Prestige Classes before you qualify for them (except their prerequisites).

One area that's particularly bad is spell transparency. What spells you will get, at what levels, what will be their effects. Even worse when you're, say, an Eldiritch Scion, you get bonus spells from your Bloodline, but the levels listed are levels when a Sorceror would get them - you will get them much later and won't get the ones that are above 6th spell level at all.

When you select feats, you do not see what other feats they are required for. So you have to kinda work "backwards". Find final feats you want and check their prerequisites.

comrades, is there such a thing as noob friendly Pathfinder rules overview? Links highly appreciated.

Alternatively, I have a solid grasp of D&D 3E/ 3.5E, does PF differ significantly?

(feel free to move this post)

 

[hell bovine]

comrades, is there such a thing as noob friendly Pathfinder rules overview? Links highly appreciated.

Alternatively, I have a solid grasp of D&D 3E/ 3.5E, does PF differ significantly?

(feel free to move this post)

As someone who had no idea about Pathfinder before playing: if you stick to the "stereotype fantasy" classes, the rules are similar enough that you'll manage. E.g. wizard = intelligence, rogue = dexterity etc. Just don't expect the game to be good at explaining things (and there is no manual either). Also, a lot of things are still bugged, so my advice would be not to plan some crazy barbarian/wizard/ballerina build with every feat written out, but to pick a class you like and take it for a spin.

About gameplay:
- Skill checks are plenty in the game and are made by the party character with highest value, so have everyone focus on what they do best. Persuasion if possible on the main character, because sometimes they will be alone for the talking. -
- When camping pay attention that people with the relevant skill bonuses do their jobs, e.g. assign hunting to someone with high nature lore; cooking is for some reason world knowledge (?). You cannot hunt in dungeons so buy camping rations for dungeoneering.
- All alignments are valid and well represented, and evil is not just an afterthought to a heroic story.
- Animal companions make the game easier, so any class that can summon them will have an easier time at the start, especially if you pick one of the 'prehistoric' options like the smilodon.
- edit: Forgot to add: sneak attacking is very easy (all it takes is basically two melee characters attacking an opponent at the same time), there are less sneak immune enemies and you can do so with touch spells, including rays.

 

[moraes]

So, latest hotfix introduced Scrolls of Atonement to the game that can restore divine powers lost from alignment changes. You can all roleplay Paladin/Barbarians now.

Also, shield AC enchantments where being doubled and are now fixed. Valerie should be less of a tank now.