Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Cael]

Call me a stupid but I don't really "get" the role of Jaethal. How do you actually build inquisitors?

Well, first you need to move to Spain...

 

[Lawntoilet]

Any chance of a Dwarven Defender type build for DR stacking?

DD gives up to DR 6/- at level 10. Get adamantine armour that gives DR 3/- and mix in levels that give Dr x/- (e.g., Barb 7) and suddenly, you have a character that takes has DR 10+ vs anything including adamantine weapons. Make the guy a high AC tank, plonk him in a narrow corridor and let hilarity ensue.

...Now I am tempted to make one in NWN2... And throw in DD for the extra lulz.

Barb 9/Stalwart Def 10 will get you DR 7/-.

 

[vazha]

Barb 9/Stalwart Def 10 will get you DR 7/-.

You mean the invulnerable rager archetype, right?

 

[Cael]

Any chance of a Dwarven Defender type build for DR stacking?

DD gives up to DR 6/- at level 10. Get adamantine armour that gives DR 3/- and mix in levels that give Dr x/- (e.g., Barb 7) and suddenly, you have a character that takes has DR 10+ vs anything including adamantine weapons. Make the guy a high AC tank, plonk him in a narrow corridor and let hilarity ensue.

...Now I am tempted to make one in NWN2... And throw in DD for the extra lulz.

Barb 9/Stalwart Def 10 will get you DR 7/-.

Yeah. Looks like they basically copied the Dwarven Defender for that one.

It's Barb 10, by the way. That is when it gets DR 2/-.

 

[Lawntoilet]

You mean the invulnerable rager archetype, right?

No, I was looking at the regular Barb, but Invulnerable Rager is better for this: at level 10, you have DR5/-, right?

Yeah. Looks like they basically copied the Dwarven Defender for that one.

It's Barb 10, by the way. That is when it gets DR 2/-.

You're right, it is level 10. However, like vazha pointed out, you can get DR 10/ as an Invulnerable Rager as a single-class. So you could get DR 10/- as an Invulnerable Rager 20, or as Invulnerable Rager 10 / Stalwart Defender 10.

 

[vazha]

You mean the invulnerable rager archetype, right?

No, I was looking at the regular Barb, but Invulnerable Rager is better for this: at level 10, you have DR5/-, right?

Yeah. Looks like they basically copied the Dwarven Defender for that one.

It's Barb 10, by the way. That is when it gets DR 2/-.

You're right, it is level 10. However, like vazha pointed out, you can get DR 10/ as an Invulnerable Rager as a single-class. So you could get DR 10/- as an Invulnerable Rager 20, or as Invulnerable Rager 10 / Stalwart Defender 10.

Exactly. I think this kind of eats out the defenders niche, the Barb just got too many good things going for him - rage, various stances, uncanny dodges and all that. You could still make a lvl 2/4 dip to defender though, for its stance, although you'll spend most time fatigued and requiring to be cast restoration spells on.

 

[Fedora Master]

Call me a stupid but I don't really "get" the role of Jaethal. How do you actually build inquisitors?

Well, first you need to move to Spain...

I see your Spanish Inquisition joke and raise you
the Buddhist Inquisition
*tips fedora*

 

[Lawntoilet]

You mean the invulnerable rager archetype, right?

No, I was looking at the regular Barb, but Invulnerable Rager is better for this: at level 10, you have DR5/-, right?

Yeah. Looks like they basically copied the Dwarven Defender for that one.

It's Barb 10, by the way. That is when it gets DR 2/-.

You're right, it is level 10. However, like vazha pointed out, you can get DR 10/ as an Invulnerable Rager as a single-class. So you could get DR 10/- as an Invulnerable Rager 20, or as Invulnerable Rager 10 / Stalwart Defender 10.

Exactly. I think this kind of eats out the defenders niche, the Barb just got too many good things going for him - rage, various stances, uncanny dodges and all that. You could still make a lvl 2/4 dip to defender though, for its stance, although you'll spend most time fatigued and requiring to be cast restoration spells on.

Fatigue isn't permanent after Defense Stance, it lasts about as long as fatigue after Rage (2 rounds fatigue per 1 round you spent in Defensive Stance). Roused Defense does away with the Fatigue penalty entirely, pretty much.
Stalwart Defender gets Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, too.
I don't know if Stalwart Defender is worth taking for 10 levels, though, since they have a dead level 9 (as opposed to PnP, where they can move slowly while in Defensive Stance at level 9).

 

[J1M]

You guys are forgetting the additional 2 damage reduction from the Stalwart Defender's increased damage reduction Defensive Power.

So you could have DR 12/- if you did Barb10/Def10

Alternatively, you could build a defender with a dip of 2 or 3 levels in paladin. If you pick fatigue with Mercy you could remove the drawback of your defender stance with lay on hands. That said, it would certainly be a trade in total DR for better saves.

 

[Lawntoilet]

You guys are forgetting the additional 2 damage reduction from the Stalwart Defender's increased damage reduction Defensive Power.

So you could have DR 12/- if you did Barb10/Def10

Alternatively, you could build a defender with a dip of 2 or 3 levels in paladin. If you pick fatigue with Mercy you could remove the drawback of your defender stance with lay on hands. That said, it would certainly be a trade in total DR for better saves.

I did forget about that power, my Valerie is only SD 3 right now. Thanks!
I really don't find the Fatigue to be that big of a deal after Defense Stance. Not any more than it is with Amiri, at least.

 

[J1M]

I was playing around with a weird concept (Paladin 3/Fighter 8/Vivisectionist 2/Stalwart Defender 7) that specialized in reach weapons and trip attacks. At a certain point, I think the extra saves are going to be more valuable than the DR or AC. (Alchemist levels let you cast shield on yourself.)

 

[Yosharian]

Barbarian has a Rage Power (gets one of these every 2nd level) that grants 2/- Damage Reduction, you can take it 3 times, and it stacks with itself and with other sources of DR.

So you can get 6/- just from the Rage Powers, and then the Invulnerable Rager archetype grants up to 10/- simply by levelling it up, so that's up to 16/-

You have to be at least Barbarian 8 to select that Rage Power, so you can't get it from quick dips.

 

[vazha]

I was playing around with a weird concept (Paladin 3/Fighter 8/Vivisectionist 2/Stalwart Defender 7) that specialized in reach weapons and trip attacks. At a certain point, I think the extra saves are going to be more valuable than the DR or AC. (Alchemist levels let you cast shield on yourself.)

Considering he'll have to dump either dex or wis to min/max that build, pally saves are indeed super important.

 

[J1M]

I was playing around with a weird concept (Paladin 3/Fighter 8/Vivisectionist 2/Stalwart Defender 7) that specialized in reach weapons and trip attacks. At a certain point, I think the extra saves are going to be more valuable than the DR or AC. (Alchemist levels let you cast shield on yourself.)

Considering he'll have to dump either dex or wis to min/max that build, pally saves are indeed super important.

You can also get creative and take Cognatogen as the alchemist discovery so you can have an even higher CHA, but combat trick might be better so you can use the Mutagen for STR. (14 base + 2 racial + 4 cognatogen + 4 enhancement = +7 to all saves)

 

[vazha]

I was playing around with a weird concept (Paladin 3/Fighter 8/Vivisectionist 2/Stalwart Defender 7) that specialized in reach weapons and trip attacks. At a certain point, I think the extra saves are going to be more valuable than the DR or AC. (Alchemist levels let you cast shield on yourself.)

Considering he'll have to dump either dex or wis to min/max that build, pally saves are indeed super important.

You can also get creative and take Cognatogen as the alchemist discovery so you can have an even higher CHA, but combat trick might be better so you can use the Mutagen for STR. (14 base + 2 racial + 4 cognatogen + 4 enhancement = +7 to all saves)

Hang on.. Hang the futhock on: you mean you can use both mutagen and cognatogen at the same freaking time? I thought they were mutually exclusive!

 

[Haplo]

Bear in mind that the Natural AC bonus you get from Mutagen isn't supposed to stack with other Natural AC bonuses you can get from spells. It is stacking right now, though.

Also a level 1 Alchemist's Mutagen only last ten minutes. Meh. Also, the ability score penalty from Mutagen interferes with your casting, if it reduces your main casting score.

Not sure about the stacking rules. I mean I thought that all "Natural" would overlap also. But turns out "alchemical" Natural AC is "base" armor type, Barkskin is "enchantment", while Legendary Proportions are "size". So maybe they should stack after all? It's not clear for me.

 

[Cael]

Bear in mind that the Natural AC bonus you get from Mutagen isn't supposed to stack with other Natural AC bonuses you can get from spells. It is stacking right now, though.

Also a level 1 Alchemist's Mutagen only last ten minutes. Meh. Also, the ability score penalty from Mutagen interferes with your casting, if it reduces your main casting score.

Not sure about the stacking rules. I mean I thought that all "Natural" would overlap also. But turns out "alchemical" Natural AC is "base" armor type, Barkskin is "enchantment", while Legendary Proportions are "size". So maybe they should stack after all? It's not clear for me.

Yes, they stack.

The key to stacking in 3.x is not WHERE it comes from but the TYPE of effect. 2 enhancements will not stack, regardless if one is a spell and the other an item. A size and an enhancement will stack, as will a racial and an enhancement.

 

[Haplo]

Barbarian has a Rage Power (gets one of these every 2nd level) that grants 2/- Damage Reduction, you can take it 3 times, and it stacks with itself and with other sources of DR.

So you can get 6/- just from the Rage Powers, and then the Invulnerable Rager archetype grants up to 10/- simply by levelling it up, so that's up to 16/-

You have to be at least Barbarian 8 to select that Rage Power, so you can't get it from quick dips.

I guess that would go well with Vivi's Preserve Organs for crit and sneak avoidance. But its also quite the level investment (minimum Vivi 6 to pick it 3x for 75% crit/sneak avoidance).
Unless there are some nice armors with Fortification effects, then I guess its not needed.

 

[Yosharian]

Bear in mind that the Natural AC bonus you get from Mutagen isn't supposed to stack with other Natural AC bonuses you can get from spells. It is stacking right now, though.

Also a level 1 Alchemist's Mutagen only last ten minutes. Meh. Also, the ability score penalty from Mutagen interferes with your casting, if it reduces your main casting score.

Not sure about the stacking rules. I mean I thought that all "Natural" would overlap also. But turns out "alchemical" Natural AC is "base" armor type, Barkskin is "enchantment", while Legendary Proportions are "size". So maybe they should stack after all? It's not clear for me.

Yes, they stack.

The key to stacking in 3.x is not WHERE it comes from but the TYPE of effect. 2 enhancements will not stack, regardless if one is a spell and the other an item. A size and an enhancement will stack, as will a racial and an enhancement.

Wait, per PnP Legendary Proportions' Natural Armor bonus IS a size bonus... wtf. So yeah, they should stack... hmmm

But still, there are still some stacking issues such as Beast Totem stacking with standard Natural Armor bonuses

 

[Haplo]

I'm starting to cave in to dip into Fighter on my Vivi. So many good feats, so little slots. That'd at least give me martial for free + another combat feat earlier. Might also take a second one later, if I feel like delaying the progression even further makes sense (probably not). But I'd loose True Mutagen (2 armor, 2 Dex, 4 Con) plus bonus Discovery, caster levels and additional level 6 extracts... at level 20 though, I'm not sure I'm gonna even reach. So maybe better to reap benefits early.
I don't even have space to properly invest in max Preserve Organs!

1 Power Attack
2 (Discovery) Cleave
3 Finishing Cleave
4 (Discovery) Combat Expertise -> That's where I'm now, in Stag Lord's Fort, almost level 5.
5 Trip
6 (Discovery) Feral Mutagen
7 Free feats: Martial Proficiency, Armor Medium, Heavy, Feat: Outflank, Fighter Bonus: Tandem Trip => Vivi betrayal? But I could really use those 2 bonus feats ASAP.
8
9 (Discovery) Preserve Organs, Greater Trip
10
11 (Discovery) Crippling Strike, Fury's Fall
12
13 (Discovery) Greater Mutagen, Blindfight
14
15 (Discovery) Mummification, Combat Reflexes
16
17 (Discovery) Grand Mutagen, Seize the moment
18
19 (Discovery) Dispelling Strike, Wings
20 Largely open. Fighter bonus? Toughness? Dodge? Maybe Rogue? Or just finish 19 Vivi for another k6 sneak and extra lvl6 spell I guess.

Of course should have picked Feral Mutagen sooner. But it should still come in handy. Particularly the free Bite, particularly if it combo's well with the Cloak of the Winter Wolf. Already have the Amulet of Mighty Fists for it

Edit: Damn, forgot Outflank. Need to squeeze it somehow in there as well!

 

[Yosharian]

I don't think Cleave is very good really

 

[vazha]

I don't think Cleave is very good really

It's a must for every two-hander, at least in early-mid game. It's thanks to them I'm progressing at all in my insane playthrough.

 

[Haplo]

I don't think Cleave is very good really

So far its pretty good. Not always of course. But quite often with Enlarge, Longspear and Finishing Cleave I take down 3 enemies in 1 move. Cleave may drop off later. But Finishing Cleave should keep at least some degree of usefulness. Not going for the Great - versions though. Could be too situational.

 

[toro]

I don't think Cleave is very good really

Two runs I've invested in Cleave (one with a barbarian and one with a two handed fighter) and Cleave is absolutely great against Troll and shit (at some point my main had a 83 critical on a Troll and 30+ on two Trollhounds -> 3 kills).

But then the usefulness starts to go down because of the unbalanced AC on mobs and once you start missing with buffs on you then Cleave or no Cleave is irrelevant.

Also, what's up with two handed fighter and Sunder maneuver?

 

[Elex]

Please come and ruin all my plans as always.

Oh, I want to ruin plans also!

Abyssal Bloodline is not eligible for DD. Having a Draconic Bloodline is an unlisted requirement.

Fun fact: You can get into DD with Bard, but it sets your bloodline to draconic.

that make sense otherwise you can have a double bloodline.

(maybe in the next patch we get a double dragon bloodline bug)