Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Bloodeyes]

Lematte, the greatest character I ever made, is dead. He was level 8. Ganked by a couple manticores in a random encounter. He was a last Aslanti mode character so he's gone for good. Meanwhile my party of halflings have survived to level 13 exploring the tenebrous depths in Beneath the Stolen Lands DLC. Only death so far was Ethyl and we picked her right back up thanks to our stack of raise dead scrolls.

Spoiler

My first halfling PCs in any RPG. After a while you forget they are halflings and only think of them as heroes.

I think I'm in love with your halfling party. Please, keep us updated on their adventures. The halfling druid with a lizard is beautiful, but I can't wait to make a party of halflings with a mounted paladin in Wrath of the Righteous. Owlcat Games, if you're reading this, LET ME RIDE A GIANT TURKEY.

Your party seems well-rounded, but you know that you can recruit more mercenaries and play with 6 characters, right?

Yeah I know. I've got only active characters getting XP though so recruiting more isn't likely to happen. Yeah the portrait for Heather is stunning. I love all the artwork for these characters and I like that I can get pretty close to it with the character creator.

I'll try to remember and grab some screens of them in action. They're Last Azlanti, challenging difficulty which is a step up for me so their story may not have a happy ending, but I love their portraits so much I'll probably just remake them if they die TBH. I don't tend to do that but they're brilliant. Their voices fit them well too, it's a shame I can't convey that in screens. Drogo - grumpy and Scottish, Ethyl - carefree, Bradley - Confident, Heather - Cunning. If you know your character voices you'll be able to imagine that.

 

[Desiderius]

Lematte, the greatest character I ever made, is dead. He was level 8. Ganked by a couple manticores in a random encounter. He was a last Aslanti mode character so he's gone for good. Meanwhile my party of halflings have survived to level 13 exploring the tenebrous depths in Beneath the Stolen Lands DLC. Only death so far was Ethyl and we picked her right back up thanks to our stack of raise dead scrolls.

Spoiler

My first halfling PCs in any RPG. After a while you forget they are halflings and only think of them as heroes.

I think I'm in love with your halfling party. Please, keep us updated on their adventures. The halfling druid with a lizard is beautiful, but I can't wait to make a party of halflings with a mounted paladin in Wrath of the Righteous. Owlcat Games, if you're reading this, LET ME RIDE A GIANT TURKEY.

Your party seems well-rounded, but you know that you can recruit more mercenaries and play with 6 characters, right?

Yeah I know. I've got only active characters getting XP though so recruiting more isn't likely to happen. Yeah the portrait for Heather is stunning. I love all the artwork for these characters and I like that I can get pretty close to it with the character creator.

I'll try to remember and grab some screens of them in action. They're Last Azlanti, challenging difficulty which is a step up for me so their story may not have a happy ending, but I love their portraits so much I'll probably just remake them if they die TBH. I don't tend to do that but they're brilliant. Their voices fit them well too, it's a shame I can't convey that in screens. Drogo - grumpy and Scottish, Ethyl - carefree, Bradley - Confident, Heather - Cunning. If you know your character voices you'll be able to imagine that.

Depths is designed to kill your party periodically then give you boons for the respawn like a rogue-like.

 

[_V_]

So I've fired Kingmaker up again. To see how far I can get in the endless dungeon. But also experimenting with builds for the MC in Wrath. Currently playing with CotW, but I assume most/all feats will eventually be available in Wrath (via mods). I'll be wating till all DLCs are out + 1 to two months for them to iron out the most grievous bugs, anyway.

I know it's frowned upon but I will go with Vivi (16) + X. The buffs + sneak attack are just too good. The concept would be to let pets close in and take the beating while I bravely destroy the enemies from the second row with reach and combat reflexes.

I'd like some input.

1: I haven't followed Wrath. Anything I should be aware of for levelling? (Epic Destinies superceeding normal character progression? Levels higher than 20? etc?)

2: I tried vivi (16) +
a) Sword Saint (4), Rapier, dex focus, fencing grace: Great AC, soso damage, soso speed, few attacks, bad Will saves. Good crits but no blinding critical possible. Reduced amount of skill points.
b) Fighter (4), Fauchard, strength focus: Good AC, great damage, bad speed, good attacks, attrocious Will saves. Blinding Criticals. Great reach. Reduced amount of skill points.
c) Traditional Monk (4), Quarterstaff, strength focus: Bad AC, great damage, great speed, great attacks, okish Will saves. Blinding Criticals (possible). Better amount of skill points and more class skills. Evasion. (And of course, the Fauchard would possible here too. But then I'd be losing the extra attack...)

3) I'm tending towards the monk. I've always wanted to play a quarterstaff user, but so far my inner minmaxer has prevented this. But here you get an extra attack and the additional strength bonus for two handed weapon. And monks are cool. While he doesn't have reach, this is easily remedied with buffs. The bad AC isn't so bad, since the pets will be attrackting the attacks (hopefully). And some quarterstaff or monk robe might be tailored to offset this bad AC.

4) Improved Criit can be gained via "keen" or a spell (at least in CotW) and they don't stack. With a quarterstaff I'll definately not be critting a lot. Are there any more sensible investments, if I don't follow the crit line? (Shatter defenses will be on other characters)

5) I know it has been asked before, but I don't remember the answer: Is there any alternative to Fencing Grace that could be used with kamas, estoc or elven curved blade? At the moment I don't see a path towards using dex or int (or wis) as damage modifiers without having to switch to single style rapier and/or sacrificing attacks. Duelist looks meh...IMHO

6) In the past itemisation has alwaysy favored two weapon or sword and board fighting over two-handed/single handed, IMHO. Have there been any indications that Owlcat see that similarly and intend to keep that in mind while developing Wrath? :D

 

[Desiderius]

So I've fired Kingmaker up again. To see how far I can get in the endless dungeon. But also experimenting with builds for the MC in Wrath. Currently playing with CotW, but I assume most/all feats will eventually be available in Wrath (via mods). I'll be wating till all DLCs are out + 1 to two months for them to iron out the most grievous bugs, anyway.

I know it's frowned upon but I will go with Vivi (16) + X. The buffs + sneak attack are just too good. The concept would be to let pets close in and take the beating while I bravely destroy the enemies from the second row with reach and combat reflexes.

Vivi 16 is (mostly) great. It's Vivi 1, especially on ranged, that sucks balls.

This is Vivi17/Barb2:



I like Double Weapons for STR-based Vivis. Try that and get back to us. Monks should be able to use QStaves as a Double Weapon but that isn't in-game yet. Wrath does have a QStaff Master that it sounds like you will enjoy.

Not a fan of Blinding Crit. Shit you crit should already be dead and you even have to beat a save.

 

[Yosharian]

I strongly recommend you don't use pets. They trivialise the game.

That said, if you are using pets and are making a reach damage dealer then you don't need a monk dip. Just go straight Vivisectionist.

If you don't use pets and decide to make a front line character, that's when the monk dip is useful.

Serpent Prince is the best reach weapon by far.

Elven Curve Blade is a good choice, use Bane of the Living and get Rogue 3 to get DEX-to-damage. That's what I did for my first MC build (check my sig). Of course, this is not a reach build.

Vanquisher is the best non-reach weapon and it out-damages any other setup, even TWF setups (yes, even if you have 10d6 sneak dice)

If you must use Quarterstaff then Ruin is the most powerful one but it is a little unclear exactly how it is obtained (you could always just use Better Vendors). And only a monk dip (to get FoB) makes this weapon competitive with other choices

 

[Desiderius]

Vanquisher is the best non-reach weapon and it out-damages any other setup, even TWF setups (yes, even if you have 10d6 sneak dice)

Yup



There is no best weapon but if you're going for one big hit Vanquisher is a good bet and it's also good for consistent damage.

 

[Mortmal]

I strongly recommend you don't use pets. They trivialise the game.

That said, if you are using pets and are making a reach damage dealer then you don't need a monk dip. Just go straight Vivisectionist.

If you don't use pets and decide to make a front line character, that's when the monk dip is useful.

Serpent Prince is the best reach weapon by far.

Elven Curve Blade is a good choice, use Bane of the Living and get Rogue 3 to get DEX-to-damage. That's what I did for my first MC build (check my sig). Of course, this is not a reach build.

Vanquisher is the best non-reach weapon and it out-damages any other setup, even TWF setups (yes, even if you have 10d6 sneak dice)

If you must use Quarterstaff then Ruin is the most powerful one but it is a little unclear exactly how it is obtained (you could always just use Better Vendors). And only a monk dip (to get FoB) makes this weapon competitive with other choices

Any min maxing trivialize the game, if you go on with a front line character i suggest using haplo's build Pathfinder - Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread | Page 114 | rpgcodex > check our fundraiser drive for Monomyth on the front page. Also fuck you Haba , probably best tank possible . Now pick the tiefling one , there's no reason to pick anything else , i use falcata instead of bastard sword, that or any valid choice.You can completely dump cha to 5 , you want dazzling display only to get shatter defense next. A bard (mandatory)with doom dirge will apply shaken to everything not immune, so there's absolutely no reason as far i can see to invest in persuasion and cha on other melee characters . You speak of a monk dip, be sure its traditional monk dip subclasses. The monk extra ac + the magus buff, the tank is invincible, reach builds(slayer inqui, whatever you want) behind him with teamworks feats,outlfanks etc , vital strikes , buff them up you can cross an endless dungeon in 3 min top in rtwp mode ... Till you see those wildscout fuckers , they only care of touch AC , and the swarms of course still a pain in the ass , that will slow you down .

 

[Desiderius]

The game has multiple maxima of indeterminate number. That’s what makes it good.

 

[Shadenuat]

o my got they finally show noobs what their casting stat is. Praise!

elemental rampager... not getting actual extra attack when shifted just loses all the style points for me. what does that chip elemental damage equates to against demons? it needs to be way stronger, then maybe one could drive a bunch of early descari swarms away

that sickening effect has strange rules wording. how long does effect last? a round?

 

[Desiderius]

Chip elemental damage triggers the Mythic thing tho. This will go off. You’ll see. Probably the Electric one. You obviously take Ascendant Element.

You get your extra attacks from Tripping everything then you tank awhile as Leopard before going off as Smilo. Both Skald and Witch can give team extra Bites if you want those.

If you want to keep your original extra Bites you’ve got growing Claws unshifted so that’s viable too.

 

[Shadenuat]

i just dont see why not give me muh extra bite when shifted, I will get myriad of bites later anyway, but an extra one early in early animal forms would be somewhat neat, wont break game lol.
yeah u will need to ignore immunity with mythic and this that and that's early mythics paid for some extra damag.

can't people make druid kits that are actually thematically and visually really interesting? or you could update old ones to be on par with new game

 

[Desiderius]

It is interesting I think. You’ll see. Primal and Hagbound a little better than they look too.

 

[Haplo]

4) Improved Criit can be gained via "keen" or a spell (at least in CotW) and they don't stack. With a quarterstaff I'll definately not be critting a lot. Are there any more sensible investments, if I don't follow the crit line? (Shatter defenses will be on other characters)

Shatter Defenses is a personal effect, should be picked on everyone who wants to improve their accuracy and land (even more) effortless sneak attacks.

 

[Desiderius]

There are several ways to get things Shaken in Wrath, even against things immune to Fear, but nothing super convenient before midgame or a little later. Shatter is very nice to have if you're trying to land CMs or lack other ways of getting things Flat-footed and/or aren't playing a class with full BAB and additional AB bonuses. It's worth taking on everyone that already has Dazzling Display and is usually a good idea on everyone with Weapon Focus and no need for caster Feats.

By late midgame you've got Frightful Aspect to produce auto-Shaken so it goes up in value at that point as well.

 

[Bloodeyes]

So I just had a big disappointment. I made what I thought was my perfect character.

Thug 3/Sylvan sorcerer 4/Arcane trickster

People who know the game already know what I did wrong. Boon companion only gives 4 levels. The leopard levels are based on class level, not character level and boon companion is 1 and done. It took me until level 10 to figure out my mistake. I've reworked the build without the leopard (huge disappointment) and made it a duel wielder.

What I think it will do - be Nonok meets Octavia. Less AB and fewer attacks than Noknok, fewer damage boosting feats than Octavia, but decent at both things and with a little Linzi thrown in in the form of mind effecting magic. Runs around with expeditious retreat on all the time. Disables things with spells. Kills them with knives. Can do ranged sneak attacks when needed but will mainly melee. I've played it a bit at 10 and it seems pretty fun to play and effective at these things. Apparently the bloodline means mind affecting spells will work on more things so that's a huge plus. Haven't tested this part.

Could someone more experienced look this over and tell me why this build is impossible before I play through 2/3 of the game? I did a respec on my level 10 save and it seems to work to that point, but I want to play it from the start. Once I do a respec this drastic a playthrough is finished for me. Companions all need respecs and new spells, good gear has been sold and I don't get the experience of levelling the character if I just make it at 10. So I want to be sure this will work before I try again. Wrath is out soon and I want to move on to it when it's stable. Bare in mind I play on challenging and may turn up to hard. I have no plans to play on unfair.

The build:

Lematte reborn

Knife master 3/Sorcerer 4 (Serpentine bloodline) Arcane trickster 10

Race: Aasimar – Muzetouched (the Dex and Cha one)

Str: 7

Dex: 20

Con: 13 (theoretical 20 point would go here)

Int: 7

Wiz: 7

Cha: 20 (Points go here for 24 at lvl 16)

Levels

1. (Rogue) Piranha strike + (Bonus feat) Weapon finesse

2. (rogue talent) Martial weapons proficiency

3. Toughness + (Bonus feat) Finesse training (Kukri)

4. (Sorcerer) Enchantment focus

5. (Sorcerer) Two weapon fighting

7. (Sorcerer)Accomplished sneak attacker

8. (Arcane trickster for remaining levels)

9. Double slice

11. Kukri focus

13. Greater enchantment focus

15. Improved two weapon fighting

17. Improved critical if I worked out the BAB right. A metamagic if I didn’t.

Spells

Level 1 (5)

Shield

Expeditious retreat

Color spray

True strike

Magic missile

Level 2 (5)

Mirror image

Scorching ray

Sense vitals

Acid arrow

Hideous laughter

Level 3 (4)

Haste

Fireball

Stinking cloud

Slow

Level 4 (4)

Greater invisibility

Dimension door

Overwhelming grief

Crushing despair

Level 5 (3)

Constricting coils

Break enchantment

Echolocation

Level 6 (2)

Disintegrate

Chain lightning

Level 7 (1)

Insanity

 

[Yosharian]

Thanks I hate it

 

[_V_]

4) Improved Criit can be gained via "keen" or a spell (at least in CotW) and they don't stack. With a quarterstaff I'll definately not be critting a lot. Are there any more sensible investments, if I don't follow the crit line? (Shatter defenses will be on other characters)

Shatter Defenses is a personal effect, should be picked on everyone who wants to improve their accuracy and land (even more) effortless sneak attacks.

Hmm, thx. Since it's listed under effects and conditions I thought it was a general effect. But Studied Targed is also listed there so I should have read the text more carefully...
This changes things.

 

[Desiderius]

Seems like that for most people PF character building is all about getting caught in a local maximum then occasionally breaking out into the wider environment before getting trapped in the next one over.

I mean seems like you're soloing? If not you can let other characters help you/focus on what they're good at and restrict yourself to one or two angles of attack.

Keep in mind that most release day memes are bad so usually a good idea to try some other things to see how they compare. Also dump stats don't buy you all that much in this game. Use your creation points wisely.

 

[Shadenuat]

I can never be amazed at what heights people are happy to go to try and turn unstoppable casters into some junk.

 

[Stoned Ape]

So I just had a big disappointment. I made what I thought was my perfect character.

Spoiler

Thug 3/Sylvan sorcerer 4/Arcane trickster

People who know the game already know what I did wrong. Boon companion only gives 4 levels. The leopard levels are based on class level, not character level and boon companion is 1 and done. It took me until level 10 to figure out my mistake. I've reworked the build without the leopard (huge disappointment) and made it a duel wielder.

What I think it will do - be Nonok meets Octavia. Less AB and fewer attacks than Noknok, fewer damage boosting feats than Octavia, but decent at both things and with a little Linzi thrown in in the form of mind effecting magic. Runs around with expeditious retreat on all the time. Disables things with spells. Kills them with knives. Can do ranged sneak attacks when needed but will mainly melee. I've played it a bit at 10 and it seems pretty fun to play and effective at these things. Apparently the bloodline means mind affecting spells will work on more things so that's a huge plus. Haven't tested this part.

Could someone more experienced look this over and tell me why this build is impossible before I play through 2/3 of the game? I did a respec on my level 10 save and it seems to work to that point, but I want to play it from the start. Once I do a respec this drastic a playthrough is finished for me. Companions all need respecs and new spells, good gear has been sold and I don't get the experience of levelling the character if I just make it at 10. So I want to be sure this will work before I try again. Wrath is out soon and I want to move on to it when it's stable. Bare in mind I play on challenging and may turn up to hard. I have no plans to play on unfair.

The build:

Lematte reborn

Knife master 3/Sorcerer 4 (Serpentine bloodline) Arcane trickster 10

Race: Aasimar – Muzetouched (the Dex and Cha one)

Str: 7

Dex: 20

Con: 13 (theoretical 20 point would go here)

Int: 7

Wiz: 7

Cha: 20 (Points go here for 24 at lvl 16)

Levels

1. (Rogue) Piranha strike + (Bonus feat) Weapon finesse

2. (rogue talent) Martial weapons proficiency

3. Toughness + (Bonus feat) Finesse training (Kukri)

4. (Sorcerer) Enchantment focus

5. (Sorcerer) Two weapon fighting

7. (Sorcerer)Accomplished sneak attacker

8. (Arcane trickster for remaining levels)

9. Double slice

11. Kukri focus

13. Greater enchantment focus

15. Improved two weapon fighting

17. Improved critical if I worked out the BAB right. A metamagic if I didn’t.

Spells

Level 1 (5)

Shield

Expeditious retreat

Color spray

True strike

Magic missile

Level 2 (5)

Mirror image

Scorching ray

Sense vitals

Acid arrow

Hideous laughter

Level 3 (4)

Haste

Fireball

Stinking cloud

Slow

Level 4 (4)

Greater invisibility

Dimension door

Overwhelming grief

Crushing despair

Level 5 (3)

Constricting coils

Break enchantment

Echolocation

Level 6 (2)

Disintegrate

Chain lightning

Level 7 (1)

Insanity

If you want to stick to your dumped stats build another option would be Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Arcane Trickster 10/Eldritch Knight 5 which would get you caster level 18 in the endgame for a 9th level spell, still leave you with 7d6 sneak (+ sense vitals), but also get you +12 BAB to qualify for Greater TWF. You'd lose rogue dex to damage but there are plenty of agile shortswords and rapiers lying around to make up for that. You can also pick up a robe which gives you Uncanny Dodge to fix that being absent.

Alternatively, if you want to go with that style of play but would like a character who is more effective through the early to mid game, why not just go for a tiefling grimspawn Eldritch Scoundrel with Str 10 Dex 18 Con 13 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 10? Could also choose elf instead to get elven magic if you want to, but you'd need to drop a point of Con.

Sure, you'll lose level 7+ level spells towards the end game but you'll be a much more effective character through most of it (far more skills, ok spell progression, better BAB, more rogue talents).

If you want to go Arcane Trickster from that, you could easily do so to pick up some extra sneak attack dice and the AT capstone at the cost of advanced rogue talents, two points of BAB, and master strike.

Alternatively, you could go for an Eldritch Scoundrel 16/Eldritch Knight 4 (or Scoundrel 4/Arcane Trickster 6/Eldritch knight 10) for +16 BAB and just use Sense Vitals to boost your sneak attack damage while getting a base of 7 attacks per round (with Greater TWF).

 

[Bloodeyes]

If you want to stick to your dumped stats build another option would be Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Arcane Trickster 10/Eldritch Knight 5 which would get you caster level 18 in the endgame for a 9th level spell, still leave you with 7d6 sneak (+ sense vitals), but also get you +12 BAB to qualify for Greater TWF. You'd lose rogue dex to damage but there are plenty of agile shortswords and rapiers lying around to make up for that. You can also pick up a robe which gives you Uncanny Dodge to fix that being absent.

These are interesting ideas. I do like the idea of having the EK in there. The BAB on this build is terrible. That's why it's so minmaxed, to have tolerable AB (also lots of spells per day and higher saves of course). My only question about your idea is if it's even possible. I've never finished the story and I don't want spoilers, but I understand the campaign finishes around level 16-17. So wouldn't I be getting only 2 EK levels (Levels 16 and 17), assuming I prioritized AT levels for the sneak attack die? Or would you just take say, 3 levels of AT and then go right in to EK?

Alternatively, if you want to go with that style of play but would like a character who is more effective through the early to mid game, why not just go for a tiefling grimspawn Eldritch Scoundrel with Str 10 Dex 18 Con 13 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 10? Could also choose elf instead to get elven magic if you want to, but you'd need to drop a point of Con.

I love the Eldritch Scoundrel in the early game, but I hate how few spells per day you get in the mid game. Having made this build as both EK and the multiclass to level 10 I greatly prefer the multiclass. Better AB, better caster level and extra attacks are tempting but the Sorc/knife master/AT gets way more spells per day, gets spontaneous casting (I prefer this) gets more sneak attack die, gets ranged legerdemain, gets its rank 1 bloodline power (I chose mind effecting works on most things because it doesn't work on much without that power, fey bloodline would give +2 DC to compulsion spells which is also tempting). Having fewer attacks sucks, as does missing improved critical for almost the whole game but I think the spells per day is worth it. Oh yeah and spells do sneak attack damage with this build. They don't with ES. A lot of people hate on ES. I think it's a solid option for a hybrid class, I just like this better.

It sounds like there's nothing glaringly broken with my plan so I think I'll just go with it. I'm already playing it at level 1. It has 10 hp and does 1d4 damage with a dagger. All piranha strike does is mitigate the -2. I'm in the tutorial and keep almost dying. This is going to be a hell of a journey. If I wasn't multiclassed I'd just take 13 STR and get power attack instead of piranha strike but I think I need the AB.

 

[Desiderius]

You can only do one thing at a time in combat bro. If you want to cast cast, if you want to knife knife. Can't do both at the same time. Now someone with 7 INT and 7 WIS might want to try...

Put your DEX at 18, your CHA at 19, and your CON at 12 and take those 12 points to get your get your INT and WIS back up to 12 like a grown man.

 

[Nano]

Good luck ruling a kingdom with a literal retard.

 

[Delterius]

Better AB, better caster level and extra attacks are tempting

That's the thing innit. Do you want to use weapons? Then choose the medium BAB class that buffs itself with magic. Either Magus or Eldritch Scondrel, whichever style you prefer. The long lasting nature of (extended) buff spells means you don't need that many spell slots. Not to mention items. Do you want to be a caster that also sneak attacks with rays? Then be AT.

 

[Desiderius]

Better AB, better caster level and extra attacks are tempting

That's the thing innit. Do you want to use weapons? Then choose the medium BAB class that buffs itself with magic. Either Magus or Eldritch Scondrel, whichever style you prefer. The long lasting nature of (extended) buff spells means you don't need that many spell slots. Not to mention items. Do you want to be a caster that also sneak attacks with rays? Then be AT.

AT can also be caster that sneaks with weapons. But you've got to pick what you want to be doing in the fights that matter most, and if that's casting you take feats and levels to cast better while if that's attacking your do the opposite. You can build a non-spontaneous caster that fights reasonably well most of the time with your knives then unleashes the big spells on the hardest fights in which case you don't need the extra casts from Sorc.