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Crispy™ Pathfinder 2e
- Thread starter catfood
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- bloat mathfinder paizo pathfinder
deuxhero
Arcane
Aside from that it should be lost when dodge bonus is, how is being harder to hit as you increase in level any weirder than becoming more accurate (BAB) as you increase in level? As for being good or bad at something, it's part of a completely different issue where training barely matters in PF2. In Saga Edition trained was +5, skill focus was another +5 making a total +10 difference between someone who put modest effort into becoming skilled at it (doable at level 1) and someone who didn't care. In PF2E untrained vs. highest training (which can't be obtained for many levels) is a +7 while best training vs. minimal training is a mere +3. That combined with full level instead of half makes the math really fucked up thanks to crazy scaling that means level matters more than training and by mid levels any idiot can outclass an expert at anything (In Saga Edition by contrast you'll never beat a low level expert on level alone.).
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Zero Credibility
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2007
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- 2,952
Call me a grognard, but I don't think it should without me having some say in it, or at least not so much is makes even the heaviest armor look like tissue paper in comparison. As you said, level beats everything. If "modernizing" the game was the goal, I'd rather they took a page from 5E than this. Why the fuck is my level 15 wizard with low strength now able to beat low level fighters in arm wrestling? Because reasons.
And you know the worst part? Despite this bonus, the math of the game is so tight even an optimized character can never expect more than about 60% chance of success at level relevant challenges, a consequence of the new critical system. So fighters have 60% chance to hit, ok. But a stealth optimized rogue also has only 60% chance of successfully sneaking past some monsters. Even masters can never expect more than that. Which is fine if you are a master at swinging a sharp piece of metal, as you can do that all day long. But if you are trying to use skills? Or casting one of your very limited and already nerfed spells? Not so much.
You know what this system feels like? Like it was designed by Sawyer. This is PoE of pen and paper systems.
And you know the worst part? Despite this bonus, the math of the game is so tight even an optimized character can never expect more than about 60% chance of success at level relevant challenges, a consequence of the new critical system. So fighters have 60% chance to hit, ok. But a stealth optimized rogue also has only 60% chance of successfully sneaking past some monsters. Even masters can never expect more than that. Which is fine if you are a master at swinging a sharp piece of metal, as you can do that all day long. But if you are trying to use skills? Or casting one of your very limited and already nerfed spells? Not so much.
You know what this system feels like? Like it was designed by Sawyer. This is PoE of pen and paper systems.
Excellent posts by deuxhero and Zero Credibility! You put my thoughts into words far more elegantly than I could.
So who the fuck is calling the shots over there about design decisions if this is that fucking bad?
deuxhero
Arcane
Wait, you add level to ability check? Now that's just flat out retarded.
As for the 60% chance thing, that's also retarded. Saga Edition's published adventures set the DCs to be around something a trained (but not specialized) PC could do on a take 10 (while Skill Focus basically insured you were going to hit it) or something the whole group was forced to do (indeed, the previews explicitly state whole group challenges is why skills scaled automatically in the system.). Of course Saga actually had rules for challenging the whole group in skill fests, generally in the form of giving a list of options that hit various skills and needing X successes within a number of rolls.
This is true.
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Zero Credibility
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2007
- Messages
- 2,952
I don't think pure ability checks exist any more, I certainly can't find anything about them in the rulebook. Everything is supposed to be tied to skills (in this case likely athletics), and all skills get the proficiency bonus based on character level, just like attacks, armor and saves. All neat and balanced.
Luckmann
Arcane
Every time I hear something new about PF2, it validates my original belief that it would be shit.
That's true. The rest of it seems to be shit though.
Neanderthal
Arcane
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