On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

[Urist McLurker]

I knew it was a good idea to let him go into the magma. Ye of no faith deserve not the glory he shall bring.

That said, I do believe Religion ought have no real place, however, this is clearly a supernatural world, and as such, I believe we ought not to push it away with religion.

Agree with him that our tribe is made for greater things, and convince the water worshipers of the tribe that the fire spirits are what we should worship, using this keeper as the example of their greatness, if they do not agree, leave them be unless they get in our way. Proceed to

make him our religious leader on equal footing with our military/warrior leader. Then, combining our mastery of fire and obsidian, we shall rampage around the lake assimilating those who will convert and accept our ways and raping and pillaging those who won't.

Edit:

I do not know who these guys are, but do we really want to give them a very good reason to come and kill us?

Your reasoning is good but forgetting one vital thing; if these guys shall stop us if we get too powerful, how will we ever get powerful?
We have the blessing of the fire spirits themselves, if there's ever a chance we will get to stop them, it will be now, they will prevent something like this from happening again if they can, and if this isn't enough to make them do something, we have nothing to worry.

 

[Omicron]

Agree with him that our tribe is made for greater things, and convince the water worshipers of the tribe that the fire spirits are what we should worship, using this keeper as the example of their greatness, if they do not agree, leave them be unless they get in our way...

Possible, but wouldn't it more beneficial in the long run to create a more organized polytheistic religion? Make the fire some sort of Zeus with below it the other elements. This way we could more easily convert newly conquered tribes as we can just make some room for their (lesser) gods or spirits in our pantheon.

 

[Stygian Lurker]

Why expel or kill a powerful ally? We should be glad he didn't come from another tribe in which case he would be destroying us now. I'm also not keen on the whole God-Emperor thing, but agree with Newcomer's plan - keep him around, give him a position on the council but not supreme authority, use his power to crush the cannibal tribe.

And in the longer run learn all we can about the stone and search for the equivalent Water ward so we can have a wielder of water as a counterbalance to his power.

I support newcomer's plan with Monty's addition of searching for water ward.

 

[Kz3r0]

Considering that I was one of those that voted to get the gem, thus causing the whole volcano mess, I flip flop to make him our leader, just for consistency's sake.

 

[Jick Magger]

The man's obviously completely out of his fucking mind and insane on god-like control over flames, so the only sane, consistent, and rational thing we can do is make him our leader and make him usher in a new age

Hell, you guys wanted him to march into molten magma. Did you expect him to come out the same person?

And we already know the first few steps in learning the power, and since the mountain's inaccessible to us now I doubt it'd be worth wasting our time trying to replicate it. This sounds like a rather one-off thing, anyway. This guy's probably possessed by some evil spirit who wants us to break all the other seals those guys were talking about.

 

[Computer Gamer Refugee]

One of the Elders speaks....

To grasp power is to grasp pain. Remember the stories of our ancestors when they first tamed the Zebra, or harnessed the power of the fire spirit. Think of all of our tribe mates that had to die in order to form even our tenuous alliance with the bear spirits. And who here has not cut their hands when they use fire and earth sprits to shape the obsidian that is our namesake? The followers of water who joined our tribe had not grasped true power. If they had, they would have been able to use the water spirits to drown or keep the barbarians at bay. In time we will learn to harness the power of water, but that is discussion for another day.

And yet, not all power is worth the pain it brings. How many brave hunters died in order to tame the bears? And what was the result, a select few gained the power of the bear spirit, but the tribe as a whole is weaker for the deaths. The tribe must always come first! This wielder of fire is very powerful, but what did grasping that power cost? Without the warning of the people of the seer, would our entire tribe now be ash? Before we accept the wielder of fire back into the tribe, we must have proof that he still of the tribe. We are followers of the fire spirits, but not fire spirits ourselves. Let him prove how he would have kept us safe had we not fled the mountain and most of all, make him swear that his loyalty is to the tribe. He must accept all of us, including the followers of water and acknowledge that there is room for all in our tribe; the fire spirits are only the first among many. If he cannot do this, then he is now a creature of fire and no longer a member of our tribe.
If we do not take the power, then some other tribe will. This is too much of a risk to the tribe. If he cannot be accepted back into the tribe, then the choice is clear; the wielder of fire must be destroyed, and the red stone sealed in obsidian and sent as deeply into the realm of the water spirits we can reach.


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Basically, I vote that we try to temper the fanaticism, prove his loyalty, and get him to accept all spirits, otherwise attempt to destroy him and seal the red stone away again.

 

[treave]

Yes yes glory of the Flame, that's all well and good, but I'd prefer in the long run to have us start conquering for the glory of the tribe. It's all too easy to lose your way if you go full fanatic.

Could we get a bit more info on the tribe's current status regarding religion? Are there a lot of fanatics for both fire and water worshippers? Do they outnumber the moderates? I assume most of our warriors are fire worshippers, but do the bulk of them share the stance of the warrior in the previous update and prefer to put their trust in cold sharp obsidian?

At any rate, here's what I suggest:

Agree with his ramblings. Politely suggest that the council will pick the worthiest of men in the tribe to gain his fire powers. Further suggest that such ceremony be done in public to display the full glory of the fire spirit to everyone.

Obviously, the council will retain political power by being careful in their picks. There's no need to rush and create a whole horde of fire-wielders that may suddenly became a mindless army for the guy either. We'll do it slowly.

Appease him if he's unhappy about this by saying such a power shines even more brightly when used sparingly by an elite few.

The initial lab rat should definitely be a fire worshipper, preferably a moderate and a council supporter. If the whole ceremony doesn't corrupt the man and make him a fanatic (i.e. it's a good sign if he doesn't go all red eyed and screaming about glory to the lord of flames the moment he receives his power), the second should be a water worshipper, again preferably a moderate and one friendly to the council, who will keep his water faith even with fire powers. Make sure that all who gain the power are loyal to the tribe and not the man or his fire spirit.

If he disagrees with all that... well... maybe we should really consider killing him and testing the stone ourselves. The spirits work for us, not the other way around.

There's a few more ways this can turn out but without knowing how the power-granting ritual actually goes, it's too troublesome to attempt to prepare for all contingencies.

Hell, you guys wanted him to march into molten magma. Did you expect him to come out the same person?

Well I didn't expect him to come out.

(this is before learning about the seer and all that shadowy person business)

 

[Urist McLurker]

Possible, but wouldn't it more beneficial in the long run to create a more organized polytheistic religion? Make the fire some sort of Zeus with below it the other elements. This way we could more easily convert newly conquered tribes as we can just make some room for their (lesser) gods or spirits in our pantheon.

I'm much more worried about the short term to be honest, we've just had a religious upset with the water spirit worshipers. Zealots have a hard time believing they're wrong, and now the fire spirit worshipers have absolute proof to prove them wrong..Well, it ain't going to go down well with them and could spark a conflict, which the new fire keeper will most likely put down brutally and fuck things up even more.

I'm assuming that most, if not all, of the water spirit worshipers are zealots, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered returning back to the old ways.

Could we get a bit more info on the tribe's current status regarding religion? Are there a lot of fanatics for both fire and water worshippers? Do they outnumber the moderates? I assume most of our warriors are fire worshippers, but do the bulk of them share the stance of the warrior in the previous update and prefer to put their trust in cold sharp obsidian?

I'd like to know about those things too, would be really helpful for making the 'right' (ish) choice.

 

[TOME]

Where are those warmongers when you need them? Update back everyone was pointing out how cowardice it would be to locate our camp in woods. And now you are going to pussy out and not fight the wielder of flame? How pathetic.

Let's test our obsidian axes against him and study the gem!.

 

[Hirato]

We definitely need a more organised religion that is inclusive of both water and fire spirits.
Let's do that and appoint this fellow the fire leader.

If the next update's going to span some years, it may be a good idea to scout the surrounding area for fauna, resources and other tribes.

 

[AstralStorm]

Let's test his fire power with fire. See if he burns brightly when subjected to a test.

Afterwards, either way is fine, either he is that powerful or he's dead. Excellent fake-witch test.

 

[oscar]

Agree with him, and discover the location of neighbouring tribes so that we may conquer and subdue him. Allow him to train the most pious of the fire faith.

I liked the idea of our dualistic faith, but I like the idea of conquering this land with fireball flinging shock-troops even more.

 

[newcomer]

Agree with him, and discover the location of neighbouring tribes so that we may conquer and subdue him. Allow him to train the most pious of the fire faith.

I liked the idea of our dualistic faith, but I like the idea of conquering this land with fireball flinging shock-troops even more.

I don't really understand the part on "conquer and subdue him", by that did you mean the wielder of fire or the other tribes?

 

[oscar]

The other tribes he's claiming live nearby.

 

[Jick Magger]

Let's test our obsidian axes against him and study the gem!.

Let me get this straight: we've got living proof that our faith is genuine; a guy who has been blessed by our patron god himself with the power to control fucking fire and has been sent to us to help us cut a bloody swathe through our enemies and take these lands for our own and build a goddamn empire.

And you want us to not only refuse his help, but also try to kill him for a rock?

There's being a warmonger, and then there's being EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEME!!111!11!11 levels of stupid.

 

[Kipeci]

This man looks like leadership material to me.

 

[treave]

Rolling over and obeying his every word the moment he flashes shiny magic at you tribals is just as stupid. That's a great way to go down in history as "the nameless mooks who worked for the evil fire overlord and were exterminated/saved by the hero".

Accept him but be smart about it.

 

[oscar]

So far he hasn't done anything particularly evil or malignant. He's got his priorities set and seems like he can fill our tribe's weak spot, magic (recall the nomad tribe who noted that while we were prosperous and technologically advanced, we lacked power from the spirits).

I like the guy. Though I can also accept that living next to a large body of water and not at least acknowledging the Water Spirit sounds like a recipe for flooding, tsunami, fish dying, water becoming polluted etc etc

 

[newcomer]

I envision this as the future of our tribe

 

[Internet]

Starting a blitzkrieg sounds tempting, but so far nothing good has come from this dude, seriously. We just had to move from our home because the fanatic caused a volcano eruption. Plus, I think one of those mysterious dudes in the shadow said he was going to punish the puny humans that messed with the Northern Ward and I assume he was talking about the gem the keeper is holding. So, no. I don't want to anger those guys anymore.

A spear through his chest sounds good to me. And get rid of that Gem of Jinx.

 

[CappenVarra]

Hmm... Interesting developments. I like the fire/water religion duality and tension (reminds me of Prelude to Darkness, and tells me integrating both is the way of the successful future empire).

Also, remember those cannibals hordes that fought like beasts with dragon-suggested influence? They were clearly under the influence of a powerful spirit (some feral aspect of nature?), and they are what we will become if we let this guy lead us - a mindless horde of burning flesh, controlled by a powerful spirit that was imprisoned and watched over by some powerful outside forces, a mere instrument used by a inhuman force that needs us for fuel to exert dominance over other spirits. Fuck that.

Yes, the power of fire is real, but we shouldn't be blinded by immediate power, because our goal isn't to become a one-sided force of conquest in the name of JesusFire - our goal is to develop our tribe and lead it to future prosperity. We're the Obsidian tribe, and obsidian is made when fire from the depths of the earth is cooled and tempered by other elements. And like that, the power of Fire we're offered now should be cooled and tempered for our benefit. Perhaps you know the saying: fire makes an excellent servant, but a ruinous master? Heed it well, brethren, and reign in the wild flames before us lest they consume us to ashes... So, if the guy is willing to become a good servant of the tribe and the council, he's welcome. But if he wants us to blindly submit to his ardor (which he clearly seems to), he must be extinguished before he causes the destruction of our tribe.

 

[Lindblum]

After this development... There is no doubt Heresy is a foot. Best to bide our time for the Emperor.

To Destroy the Fire or Water Fags that is the question?

 

[Esquilax]

Great post, CappenVarra. So do you then suggest that he become a member of the council?

I agree about the barbarians probably engaging in the worship of some feral aspect of nature (probably that of the wyvern/dragon). The refugee account seems to indicate that they had some kind of superhuman strength, speed and ability to shrug off wounds:

They were men like us and you, yet they weren't like us and you. They were beasts, roaring their hunger and hatred. They had warriors, moving as fast as the gazelle, as strong as lions. They fought dressed in animal pelts, bare-handed, fearless, impervious to all but the most grievous wounds. Our spears could not save us, the valor of our best fishers and hunters as nothing in front of the bestial rage they had to face. In a day, we were vanquished.

This guy will give us an edge, but the price is simply too much. He'll ensure that our empire will spread like wildfire, but he'll also burn us out just as quickly. That is why we definitely need a way to curb his influence - we are never going to convince a raving fanatic that he's wrong, but we can ensure that the rest of the tribe isn't poisoned by his lunacy. So long as enough people believe that the water spirit can aid our tribe, we can counter the Wielder of Fire's influence.

Making him a member of the council is only a postponing measure, but I'm not sure what else we can do at the moment. Thoughts?

 

[oscar]

Hopefully this guy will be able to patch up our magical/spiritual deficiencies (the premonitions of the nomad tribe, the superhuman toughness of the barbarians) but not become some insane despot and chain us as slaves to the fire spirit.

But then again, he could make a pretty badass king who knows. But for now let's play things cautiously.

 

[Vernydar]

Cappenvarra made an excellent post, and I completely agree. I said it last night, and I'll say this again. This is no mere fanatic. This is no simple priest. This guy has been mind controlled or at the very least he has become the worst kind of fanatic. And I think it is going to be contagious. That stone of his, I think it's more than just a part of the problem. It may simply be THE problem.

Sorry, but no matter how strong this guy can make us, being reduced to a tribe of raving lunatics is not the way to go. And making him a member of the council WILL reduce us to a tribe of raving lunatics, just at a slower pace than making him the god-emperor. No, he's too dangerous. since nobody wants to send him away, let's just kill him now. And then, destroy the stone or dump it at the bottom of the lake