OMG! There is some intelligence at the Escapist!

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Shows what you know. Yes, let's put a noob, stupid fighter against an experience, clever mage. Who wins?

Maybe the fighter should have charged to engage mage in melee before he has time cast anything - thanks to improve initiative, boots of speed or whatever. Then use AoO to slice the pointy hat in half when they try to cast anything. Pull out a Composite Long Bow +5 with Arrows of Dispelling, then use Arrows of Slaying. Wear a helmet of Silence, 15' feet. Pay a cleric to bless a pouch full of pebbles, so they all are +1, then just fling them at the Stoneskin-wearing mage. Wear a ring of Magic Immunity.

Both in 2nd ed and 3.5 ed fighters have a plethora of ways to defeat mages. Just because you don't have the knowledge/imagination to work them out doesn't mean that DnD is a broken system. AGAIN, much blame falls on devs who, already constrained by a computer system, still manage to be lazy and not even use all the tools on their disposal.

Wear a ring of Magic Immunity.
Hey, he also should be equiped with a sword of unerring dispelling and instant slaying. rofl. I guess that proofs that Fighter pwns!!11!!

Combat begins.
Fighter charges - oh wait - the Wizards cast Celerity as immediate action and gains a standard action, then he casts Timestop. He's dazed next round, no matter since time is stopped. Then he cast Arcane sight or something to see what wonderful ridiculous equipment the fighter wears and then he planeshifts away (different plane where the time runs differently). He prepares everything he needs, adjusts his spellbook, rests up, fully buffs and planeshifts back. He waits for the Timestop to run out. Then he cast Celerity again and strikes the fighter with a disjuction. Ring of *I r immune to everything* destroyed. remaining life expectancy of the fighter: 3 rounds max. Should something go wrong cast celerity and repeat the process.

 

[SCO]

I would simply make everyone wizards, but with different specializations. It's what already happens anyway.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

Or make being a wizard a big deal, as it should be.

I mean, seriously. Show me a country which wouldn't want to have a man who can set a dozen men ablaze in under six seconds(fuck yeah military), fly and become invisible(fuck yeah espionage), or control people's minds(fuck yeah diplomacy). The fact that most fantasylandkingdoms just let mages run around the countryside and do whatever the fuck they want whenever the fuck they want is plainly speaking retarded.

 

[Felix]

I like the way Gothic handle mages, I still remember the feeling of achievement when get accepted in the Monastery in Gothic 2....

 

[Grifthin]

Shows what you know. Yes, let's put a noob, stupid fighter against an experience, clever mage. Who wins?

Maybe the fighter should have charged to engage mage in melee before he has time cast anything - thanks to improve initiative, boots of speed or whatever. Then use AoO to slice the pointy hat in half when they try to cast anything. Pull out a Composite Long Bow +5 with Arrows of Dispelling, then use Arrows of Slaying. Wear a helmet of Silence, 15' feet. Pay a cleric to bless a pouch full of pebbles, so they all are +1, then just fling them at the Stoneskin-wearing mage. Wear a ring of Magic Immunity.

Both in 2nd ed and 3.5 ed fighters have a plethora of ways to defeat mages. Just because you don't have the knowledge/imagination to work them out doesn't mean that DnD is a broken system. AGAIN, much blame falls on devs who, already constrained by a computer system, still manage to be lazy and not even use all the tools on their disposal.

Wear a ring of Magic Immunity.
Hey, he also should be equiped with a sword of unerring dispelling and instant slaying. rofl. I guess that proofs that Fighter pwns!!11!!

Combat begins.
Fighter charges - oh wait - the Wizards cast Celerity as immediate action and gains a standard action, then he casts Timestop. He's dazed next round, no matter since time is stopped. Then he cast Arcane sight or something to see what wonderful ridiculous equipment the fighter wears and then he planeshifts away (different plane where the time runs differently). He prepares everything he needs, adjusts his spellbook, rests up, fully buffs and planeshifts back. He waits for the Timestop to run out. Then he cast Celerity again and strikes the fighter with a disjuction. Ring of *I r immune to everything* destroyed. remaining life expectancy of the fighter: 3 rounds max. Should something go wrong cast celerity and repeat the process.

@ Garfunkel - My example is of two equal level foes. Level 6 both of them. Hell level 5 even. Simple things like ray of enfeeblement, fly, invisiblity, rope trick so he can rest without interrupion, windwall, blink, displacement, suggestion, charm person are all level 1-3 spells. characters don't have that kind of wealth your talking about spending to make your fighter immune to some 1-3 level spells if they are level 5. Recommded wealth per level is like 39000gp at level 9. The stuff your talking about costs hundreds of thousands of gold pieces.

@ Ventilator's example - This Pretty much taking a higher level example of my relatively low level example. I love dnd, but it's universally known (not liked) that full progression spellcasters in dnd are incredibly unbalanced. It's so rediculous that a class has to give AMAZING benefits to even consider multiclassing that would cause a loss of casting level. Oh and I like fighters (really over the whole bathrobe wearing dude tossing around spells) - It's just a fact unfortunately.

@ Emo - I agree, it always amuses me that you can torch people with your mind but you can walk around freely and still get given lip by the locals in games.

In that respect I like DA - mages where feared and kept on a tight leash.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

there are even worse things possible with divine magic.

thinking about it, a ring of magic immunity could be so awesome that it makes the fighter immune to all forms of magic incl. Disjunction.
In that case I would shape an antimagic field around him, making all his superduper equipment worthless. Would that work? I think so.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fallout1/2 had nice combat and incidentally, wasn't broken.

buh?

 

[Volourn]

"Both in 2nd ed and 3.5 ed fighters have a plethora of ways to defeat mages. Just because you don't have the knowledge/imagination to work them out doesn't mean that DnD is a broken system"

FFS You are retarded. No way no how is a D&D fighter equal to a mage and sheer powerful. That's bullshit. Your example of throwing the fighter magic itema fetr magic to ciunter the mage just proves it. Might as well throw the mage an anti physical damage ring and be done with it the way you go about it.

Mages that are well done should ALWAYS be more powerful than more 'mundane' classes. Otherwise, why fuckin' call it magic? FFS

And, oh, there are tons of useful spells in DA. I'm on my second play through now with a mage. This means I've had 3 mages in my party at one time or another - Morrigan, Wynne, and myself - all 3 have had decently different spell lists yet all were very useful with hardly a 'useless' spell. In fact, I hadn't even used fire based spells until this run through.

But, mages are far from unkillable in DA espicially when with one spell you often got an entire army wanting you dead - even with allies using threaten and the like. Nobody likes a fireball in the face.

Enemy mages in DA also use different spell set up, and often do so effectively and WITHOUT the often 'cheesy' methods that BG2 mages did by auto casting 20, 000 spells as soon as he sense you lol.

I fear DA mages more than D&D mages because it's very easy with good saves/MR for characetrs to basically laugh at spells at time. Not so easy in DA MOST OF THE TIME.

iN CONCLUSION, da > bg2.

 

[Melcar]

Bullshit

 

[Volourn]

"On my first and so far only playthrough, I completely neglected this stat. As a result, I missed out on SO MUCH content. It was kind of disappointing that so much of the game is reliant on this stat. For example, romances, certain combat encounters and even boss fights can either be avoided or even completed with high coercion. Because then you're able to either persuade or intimidate.

The game is like so much easier if you have a high enough persuasion or intimidate. I'm not going to make this same mistake on my next playthrough. However, I'm not gonna lie, I wish the devs didn't put such and emphasis on it."

'Nough said.

DA > BG2

 

[Serious_Business]

Lies. Bullshit. Also MoraN

 

[Melcar]

Lots of bullshit being thrown around lately.

 

[1eyedking]

Also: Youa re dumb.

 

[ghostdog]

'Nough said.

 

[DreadMessiah]

r00fles! Pretty Princess.

 

[Solohk]

Game over. Period.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Or the fighter will just hide in the bushes, while using henchmen to distract the mage, who wastes his most potent spells against them before shooting him in the back with an Arrow of Slaying.

My point being that by using magic items, environment and such to his benefit, fighter can & will take wizards down. Of course if the wizard has celerity (which is one reason I stick with only PHB-stuff, the additional books just beg to try to break the game) and timestop and planar shift always memorized, he's going to be pretty invincible on straight-up 1on1 fight. Nothing wrong with that, DnD isn't supposed to be PvP-balanced to begin with.

 

[DreadMessiah]

Slap antimagic field spell on the mage. PHB spell only Wall of Force/Mordenkainen's disjunction can exist/be cast inside the field. Slap that mage silly

 

[godsend1989]

The dwarf quest was fucking endless its about 50% of the whole game, after 4 hours of NON STOP fighting in some stupid mazes i was really pissed next day i remember i was afraid to enter the game again it was to much combat for me to handle, TO MUCH i tell ya. DA is a good game but the stupid endless filler combat it spoiled all the fun for me i never felt that mad when i finished a game i don`t know why but i was mad on myself (probably because of the combat filler at the end ). I was really enjoying the game till i started the dwarfs quest don`t go there my advice, DA haves his moments of glory but sometimes is really stupid. What the heck its bioware, they have to ruin your fun one way or another, that`s their style after all.

 

[Grifthin]

Or the fighter will just hide in the bushes, while using henchmen to distract the mage, who wastes his most potent spells against them before shooting him in the back with an Arrow of Slaying.

My point being that by using magic items, environment and such to his benefit, fighter can & will take wizards down. Of course if the wizard has celerity (which is one reason I stick with only PHB-stuff, the additional books just beg to try to break the game) and timestop and planar shift always memorized, he's going to be pretty invincible on straight-up 1on1 fight. Nothing wrong with that, DnD isn't supposed to be PvP-balanced to begin with.

yes - and our point is that a fighter needs all his buddies, magic items out the wazoo too even stand a chance of going toe to toe with a wizard. Again - level 5 characters, mage casts fly, all our henchman stand on the ground - not much of a distraction now. if they have bows he casts wind wall/protection from arrows. What does your fighter do now ?

Incidentally - even straight PHB wizard can take the game and break it across his knees with only PHB spells. There are 3 ways of going infinte (levels, spells, etc) with a wizard i know of, all core. The out of phb stuff actually start to give the fighter a fighting chance well only marginally increasing the power of wizards (unless you use incantrix, arch mage and one or two other classes).

Or even easier - casts fly followed by charm person or sleep. The point is that a dnd wizards power scales incredibly in comparison to any melee class in the game. Hell even druids and clerics make better melee fighters than the fighter. Sad but true. It sucks cause my favourite dnd character is a fighter that duel wields 2 light repeating crossbows - and repeating crossbows are the suckiest weapons in the book for range, and fighter can only fight. sad sad shit.

 

[Volourn]

"Or the fighter will just hide in the bushes, while using henchmen to distract the mage, who wastes his most potent spells against them before shooting him in the back with an Arrow of Slaying. "

Or the mage will just hide in the bushes, while using henchmen to distract the fighter, who wastes most of his hit points against them before shooting him in the back with a Spell of Slaying.


"The dwarf quest was fucking endless its about 50% of the whole game"

Why do you lie? It took me less than 10 hours, and it took me 60 hours to play the entire game. I don't believe it's even the longest quest area. The elf part is, perhaps, long with forest-forest, cave1-cave2. Not to mention the entire Arl questline.


R00fles!

 

[GarfunkeL]

Fight the wizard inside a building or underground. Wear the duration of the fly spell or the protections. There's always a way if you can decide when and where the fight takes place. Also, why would the wizard always have fly memorized?

5th level wizard has 4/3/2/1 spell slots (and with 18 int it's 4/4/3/2). Fly and wind wall take those both - meaning that the wizard would not have Lightning bolt or fireball or dispel magic or haste or any of those other spells. Protection from Arrows will only take 50 points of damage before collapsing - Composite Longbow (+4 STR bonus) only costs 500 gold and does 1d8+4 damage every shot. True, it doesn't mean he will automatically win, it just means he can overcome the wizard if he manages to outlive the wizard's initial spells. True, he might bungle his saving throws but hey, that's life!

Or the mage will just hide in the bushes, while using henchmen to distract the fighter, who wastes most of his hit points against them before shooting him in the back with a Spell of Slaying.

Why would the mage do that if he is already so OP as Grifthin argues? R00fles!

 

[Grifthin]

@ Garfunkel

Yes - But your composite bow can't shoot through the windwall at all. And the reason why a wizard always has fly memorized (unless it's his barred school) is because it's so good. you nullify ALL melee opponents that lack flight. That's fantastic. As for the fighter - lightning bolt or fireball are some of the worst spells for wizards. Blaster wizards are weaker than any other type. It's much better to go for spells that either A: completely make the enemy useless at combat, B: do not allow saves or give negative effects even when saved against or C: Ability score damage. That's why wizards are powerful.

Your fighter comes up to wizard to kill him, wizard casts charm - asks fighter to please go and buy him some cookies 2 cities away. Fighter says OK! anything for his best friend. Wizard carries on with his work.

Suggestion - Same thing. Sleep + Coup de grace. Also - combine something like Spectral hand with Touch of idiocy. Your a fighter so you will have low wis or int or cha. Deal damage to that stat with touch of idiocy. Attribute reaches 0. you die.

Then there's all the ways to make you useless in combat like charm, suggestion, Glitterdust, Color spray, fear, obscuring mist, ray of exhaustion. Then there's the various summon spells to keep you occupied for atleast 1 round.

Besides flight for protection there's a plethora of other spells to deal with people as indicated in my posts here. how do you propose to wear off a wizards protections ? if your hiding for that duration he would just get bored and walk off. or cast invisibility and fly away. Or cast rope trick and go and rest to recover his spells.

Look fighters are weaker than wizards - this is a problem with the dnd system. Fighters scale linearly, wizards scale quadrantically. A well played wizard makes a dm's life incredibly difficult because he can turn virtually any encounter into a cake walk. Barring grappeling his sorry arse inside a AMF field h's pretty much going to just ruin your day.

 

[Volourn]

"Fight the wizard inside a building or underground. Wear the duration of the fly spell or the protections. There's always a way if you can decide when and where the fight takes place. Also, why would the wizard always have fly memorized?"

*yawn* Mage just casts fireball then you have a burning building fall on you or GTFO.


"5th level wizard has 4/3/2/1 spell slots (and with 18 int it's 4/4/3/2)."

What edition? In 3rd, he can just the cool stuff to cast spells at different, or I know use other spells to do damage. R00fles!


"Protection from Arrows will only take 50 points of damage before collapsing"

LMAO Fighter be long dead before then.


Mage just has to cast hold person or sleep to end the fight easy taking advantage of the fighter's will save. L0L



"this is a problem with the dnd system."

Not a problem nor is it unique to DnD. Any well made and logical system that has magic should ALWAYS have magic be more powerful than the mundane or why the fuck have magic in the first place? FFS

This need to have balance mean exactly the same thing as equal is fuckin' retarded when it comes to magic.

And, sure, a fighter could beat a mage (of near equal level) striaght up but it's very unlikley, takes a retarded mage, some horrible bad luck, and certain equipment. This is barring, of course, 'mage killing' speciifc classes though they still will likely lose more often then not.

This is the way it *should* be.

 

[Grifthin]

@ Volourn No - it's not the way it should be. At the moment a wizard in dnd can fulfill any role in the party at any given time. This is broken. He can summons for tanking, deal ranged damage, use spells for scouting etc. What's the point of having any other party members if the batman wizard can do any role better ?

So yes a fighter could beat a mage - but it would not be straight up. It will be with incredible amounts of planning and foresight trying to plan for almost any contingency (this includes things like D-door, flight, invisiblity and at higher levels the contingincy spells). Hence mages in dnd being broken. Fighters fight - that's it, as soon as you prevent them from doing that they are useless. No social skills, no trap disabling. Ontop of this they can only deal HP damage. Makes me very sad.