OMG! There is some intelligence at the Escapist!

[Damned Registrations]

Well, pretty much anyone over level 5 is more than a mere mortal in DnD. Even with a shitty NPC class like noble or something, by 10 levels you have superhuman endurance and prowess in multiple skills.

The thing is, there's really no reason for them to become that powerful, that quickly, at no real cost. If they lost 1d2 in a random physical attribute every time they gained a level, they'd maybe be balanced as glass cannons. By the same token, why can't fighters gain 1 point in a random physical attribute every level? Would they become super characters that nobody could touch? No. They'd be tough as nails and well beyond human limits physically, but isn't that entirely appropriate for a person that's killed so many people in direct combat he might as well be the avatar of war?

 

[Volourn]

"Kobolds are intelligent humanoids, they use the most effective weapon which"

Yeah, except you kinda areignorant about kobolds. Theya re humanoid savages who live in sahit villages in the middle of nowhere with the ability to minimally craft if at all. It's why theya re scavengers. It's not like they can get money off those they kill and then go spend it a corner store for a nice wellc rafted weapons. This is why kobolds never attack unless outnumber their opponent by a lot, and they also don't make a habit of attacking wella rmed adventuring parties unless they are desperate or think they cna surprise.

Want to see the exception? Check out the Dragon Mountain boxset. Just remember, those are THE exception, not the rule.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Well, pretty much anyone over level 5 is more than a mere mortal in DnD. Even with a shitty NPC class like noble or something, by 10 levels you have superhuman endurance and prowess in multiple skills.

The thing is, there's really no reason for them to become that powerful, that quickly, at no real cost. If they lost 1d2 in a random physical attribute every time they gained a level, they'd maybe be balanced as glass cannons. By the same token, why can't fighters gain 1 point in a random physical attribute every level? Would they become super characters that nobody could touch? No. They'd be tough as nails and well beyond human limits physically, but isn't that entirely appropriate for a person that's killed so many people in direct combat he might as well be the avatar of war?

TBH, it doesn't matter what a fighter's stats are in relation to a wizard's. A wizard is always going to pwn a fighter past level 9, even if the fighter has spell IMMUNITY.

 

[PorkaMorka]

The point is, how would a fighter help in that (Absurd wealthy kobolds) situation? He wouldn't. He'd be worthless crap, because after the kobolds got their surprise round off on the wizard, the fighter can kill one of them /maybe/ before they do the same to another party member WITHOUT surprise. .

The fighter, the cleric, the barbarian and the rogue (once he gets uncanny dodge) are all going to have enough hit points and AC that such an attack would be a big mistake for such weak opponents. Only a couple bolts would hit and that wouldn't take any of the aforementioned PCs down, at which point the party would either return fire while the Kobolds have to reload and have shitty combat stats in general or if the party didn't fear a second ambush they could chase down the Kobolds (who move slower than medium sized PCs).

Only the Wizard would be really vulnerable enough to make such an attack worth it, past the first couple levels, because the Kobolds despite being 1HD might actually manage to take down the Wizard.

It's just one example of how a lower mid level Wizard's life should be a lot tougher than CRPGs might make it out to me.

Is the Fighter's value in that he has enough hp to run away back to town and tell the tale of how 4 morons went in to fight things innappropriately strong for their levels?

Um if he is about 4th level, the fighter can probably pull out his bow and shoot down many of/every single Kobold at range (not that they'd want to stick around). Kobolds have a lot more trouble penetrating banded mail than robes and crossbows have a reload time.

The situation is stupid anyways. Why not just give them flasks of alchemists fire and tanglefoot bags and smoke sticks and some murder holes? Maybe some dragon bile poison on the bolts? But give them all rusty armor that gives them worse than naked AC so the fighter doesn't feel so bad when he whiffs half his attacks (They get dex and size bonuses to AC too.)

Kobolds have been using more ranged weapons than just slings in every incarnation of D&D I've ever played. Usually bows rather than crossbows, but still, there is nothing unrealistic about Kobolds using ranged to ambush a party, if they think they can do damage.

What's unrealistic is the suicidal melee charges they do in video games.

There is no fighter in a DnD party that wouldn't be better off replaced with a caster. The only thing they have to offer is higher hit dice, and if the DM is just dealing a flat 10 damage to the entire party as your encounter with no saves, warning, or resistances involved, then you'd have a point. But then he might as well just say you died when you opened the door, mutter something vague about a trap, and mention that 5$ you owe him for the pizza

True, as long as that caster is a cleric.

I am extremely unconvinced that a party of all Wizards is a good idea at lower to mid levels.

All Wizards and Clerics, sure, depending on the edition and sourcebooks in use, I remember 2nd edition clerics not having quite as much offense, but in 3rd edition they were indeed better than fighters.

Early on you still need some sort of melee.

 

[Damned Registrations]

All wizards would beat the crap out of all fighters, and edges out slightly ahead of 3 wizards 1 fighter.

The issue with crossbows is that they aren't a feasible weapon for kobolds to have. Where would they get them? They'd need crossbows specifically designed for small creatures with a strength penalty. It's not like a bow where they can just use a shorter draw and fire at a penalty. Their listed weapons are spears and slings because you can make spears and slings out of sticks, leather scraps and rocks. They could probably manage some crappy bows too, but they'd have shit for range, accuracy and damage because they can't manufacture proper bows or arrows for their size, and can't use ones sized for humans. On top of that, they'd need to have training with them, which makes little sense as they'd have no reason to train with weapons they don't have and no reason to switch to using weapons they aren't trained with if they happen to find them.

If the fighter is 4th level, so is the wizard. He had protection from normal arrows on to begin with and laughs his ass off. Or maybe he was simply invisible and scouting for the party.

@Diggler:

Assuming we made the changes I did, the fighter still loses hands down to most of the things he already loses to hands down, including a spellcaster or spider swarm. However, he can excel at things where he was previously only adequate. Both of them can kill a polar bear, say. However, the wizard has to cast two or three spells to do so. The fighter can walk up and hack it apart single handedly, probably without even getting hit, without expending anything. Even if he did get hit, he has insanely high hp. He can actually function as a meat shield. He can open trapped doors or chests, or break them apart, and shrug off the poison while chiding his comrades for being afraid of tiny arrows. He can pick up the skinny unconscious wizard in one arm, and make a running leap over a chasm. If his sword gets melted by the rust monster he can beat it to death with his bare hands. He should be able to beat the crap out of a Xorn faster than the monsters a wizard can summon. He shouldn't need protection from energy to survive dragon breath with enough vigor to shove a sword up it's ass after hacking apart some eggs to taunt it down. Where a wizard would fly over castle walls, the warrior should walk through the hail of arrows, lift the portcullis and kick in the gate.

In short, a fighter should be impressive in his physical prowess, to the point of awe. Not merely on par with a monster that can also breathe fire and fly with the same melee capability. An epic fighter should fillet a dragon stupid enough to get near him, and survive one smart enough to harass him from afar. He should be able to cleave stone with a plain sword, travel overland as fast as a horse without tiring, and survive things nobody could possibly survive, like entire buildings collapsing on him or swimming through an acid moat.

Being guaranteed to win a straight melee fight with a monster who's CR was equal to his level wouldn't make him as useful as a wizard, but it'd help a lot, and make the game way more fun.

 

[PorkaMorka]

The issue with crossbows is that they aren't a feasible weapon for kobolds to have. Where would they get them?

Dead SRD halflings, hehe
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfling.htm

Nah, if you want to give them small bows instead, that's fine as well. Then they don't have to reload. Pretty much every time I've seen Kobolds in official materials they've had some with bows, so I hope we're not going to quibble over that.

On the other hand, there are plenty of 1hd medium sized humanoids who can use ranged weapons too.

If the fighter is 4th level, so is the wizard. He had protection from normal arrows on to begin with and laughs his ass off. Or maybe he was simply invisible and scouting for the party.

Ok, now we have a 4th level Wizard (in a party) using one of his three (2+1 bonus) lvl 2 spells to protect himself from five one HD Kobolds. Hopefully he doesn't need it later!

Admittedly though, it *is* a bit disturbing how they made that spell a level lower and last a billion times longer in 3rd edition compared to second, in 2nd edition it wouldn't have been anywhere near as easy to start with it up due to the shorter duration (turns instead of hours)

As for using invisibility to scout, that's still only a 4 minute duration, so you're gonna want to save that one for situations where you need it to stay alive.

Anyway, you've raised some valid points, but ultimately low-mid level Wizard power is going to depend on how much you can rest. If it's a series of one off fights and then back to safe areas, so he can blow his load every fight, his power level is going to be a lot higher than in situations where multiple fights occur between rests, so I guess it varies from campaign to campaign. For us it was very rare to be in situations where you can rest frequently (usually we got to rest like once in a long ass session), but if you can rest more frequently and eliminate the resource management/survival aspects of the game, I could see how your Wizards would be stronger.

But still pretty fragile at lower levels.

 

[Grifthin]

Our casters can normally rest once every 2-3 sessions. Believe you me, just 1 well placed spell can shoot all my fucking plans to hell. (currently I'm DM for our group, fucking hate casters cause they screw up the basic rules of the game).

@ DamnedRegistrations - A fighter can do all that but you need multiple sourcebooks and a non phb race to accomplish. We had a Half-Dragon Dragon disciple in our party with a str score in the upper forties. He was disgusting in close combat, duel wielded mercurial great weapons. I felt sorry for anything going up against him.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The problem with sourcebooks 'fixing' fighters is that they generally add just as much or more to casters, so you need to up the monster's strength as well. Bringing out the source book that lets a fighter rambo a dragon doesn't help if the DM is throwing Cthulu's older brother at the party because the wizards have 'plain' Cthulu on a leash. Adding races with a major level adjustment definitely helps fighters more than casters though. Even turning into a lich isn't really worth the level adjustment for most casters, unless you feel like leaving the campaign for undetermined periods of time without any fear of being attacked by anything ("I teleport to the moon and write Conan fanfic in the dirt for the next 300 years"). Although something like an air mephling can be pretty sweet, since Fly can't grant perfect movement and is a lame necessity to waste a spell slot on.