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OMG! More famous voices for Oblivion

Joined
Sep 11, 2005
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Edit: Double Post
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
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Psilon said:
Speaking of revamped...

Given that lycanthropy has been cut (again), are they keeping vampirism?

10-4 on Vampirism. Also lycanthropy was cut from Morrowind but they came back and made a whole expansion almost completely devoted to it. I wouldn't lose hope on becomming a werewolf.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
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Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
angler said:
Twinfalls said:
Right. So you admit that you sacrifice basic role-playing mechanics for graphics. Why's that then? The loss of development time and resources transferred to the extra flash?

Is role playing really a priority at Bethesda's RPG studio?

He said that it's harder to model and animate a 3D horse instead of a 2D one.

And he said that in response to a question about skills being taken out. What's the logical inference to be drawn here? Obviously, that Bethesda is focusing on presentation over RPG mechanics.
 

Section8

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I don't know about you guys, but I find novels more immersive than photo albums. I don't really understand how that is, because words aren't as realistic as photos. Anyone want to explain it to my stupid fucking self?

To further prove my point, here's a screen shot of a game I found far more immersive than Morrowind.

Silent%20Service%20(E)-5.png


I understand the point was made partly in jest, but who really gives a fuck about "great atmosphere?"

Since I'm really enjoying making my own points in "thousand word" blocks, here's a "tremendous gameplay space":

H500lg.jpg


And it's totally fucking moddable too! I've seen a LOTR TC, a DooM TC, fairies, unicorns, I mean holy fucking shit! There's even some outlandish shit where you can only move diagonally, jump, and even become the fucking king! And if that's not enough, all your men can become kings!*

Oh, and one last pic, just for "kicks." Here's a leg or two to stand on, Kathode, just in case your arguments ever decide to bear some weight.

thumb_ProstheticLeg.jpg


I also highly recommend doing a google image search for "Prosthetic" just to see the first match.

* I felt it should be noted that becoming king in checkers actually has a dramatic gameplay effect, which makes it much more interesting than having "OMG, jou are the fucking BOSS of Imperial Legion/Mage Guild/etc tacked onto your character sheet."
 

Twinfalls

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Section8 said:
I don't know about you guys, but I find novels more immersive than photo albums. I don't really understand how that is, because words aren't as realistic as photos. Anyone want to explain it to my stupid fucking self?

My guess: A novel engages your imagination more than pictures. Your imagination is more active, you have to do all the filling in, and ultimately nothing can be as 'immersive'.

It's why I fear for the new generation of kids growing up with ultra high-fidelity 3d gaming. If the games lack any conceptual challenge to the kids imagination, they will grow up robbed of the kind of growth in imagination which previous generations had when they had to rely on books.

Edit: just realised Sect8 was being rhetorical.

It's late.
 

franc kaos

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On the outside ~ looking in...
Twinfalls said:
Section8 said:
I don't know about you guys, but I find novels more immersive than photo albums. I don't really understand how that is, because words aren't as realistic as photos. Anyone want to explain it to my stupid fucking self?

My guess: A novel engages your imagination more than pictures. Your imagination is more active, you have to do all the filling in, and ultimately nothing can be as 'immersive'.

It's why I fear for the new generation of kids growing up with ultra high-fidelity 3d gaming. If the games lack any conceptual challenge to the kids imagination, they will grow up robbed of the kind of growth in imagination which previous generations had when they had to rely on books.
I'm in the older demographic (U6,7 and Underworld as well as Arena and Daggerfall), but I've turned into a graphics whore. I tried to replay Daggerfall, and I swear it hurt my eyes. So a suggestion, rerelease Daggerfall with open resolution, files (like the CS) and let us continue making it the game it could have been. I don't need Bloom, parallax modelling or specular lighting, but running windows at 1280x1024 and trying to play a game on my 19in monitor with 85Hz refresh rate at 320x200 is just painful. I don't think we're ever going to get an expansive and open game like Daggerfall again, so why not give the fans permission to fix it. It shouldn't be allowed to die.
 

Data4

Arcane
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Messages
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Location
Over there.
Twinfalls said:
Section8 said:
I don't know about you guys, but I find novels more immersive than photo albums. I don't really understand how that is, because words aren't as realistic as photos. Anyone want to explain it to my stupid fucking self?

My guess: A novel engages your imagination more than pictures. Your imagination is more active, you have to do all the filling in, and ultimately nothing can be as 'immersive'.

It's why I fear for the new generation of kids growing up with ultra high-fidelity 3d gaming. If the games lack any conceptual challenge to the kids imagination, they will grow up robbed of the kind of growth in imagination which previous generations had when they had to rely on books.

Call me an idiot, moron, fucking dumbass, or whatever else makes ya feel good about yourself, but I see nothing wrong with pretty graphics in a game, WITH THE CAVEAT that it doesn't take away from the deeper gameplay elements. If "true" computer roleplaying games were text only, they'd all be variations of the Infocom text adventures, with MUDs leading the way in the MMORPG sector. Talk about niche! I doubt very seriously that someone could package and sell one of those types of games and make any decent profit out of it.

I have a more "holodeck" outlook of where I'd like to see the CRPG genre go. Bethesda is on the right track by including their tools with the game, to allow people to create their own sandbox. Sure, they're not the first to do this, but it does give the opportunity for the players to not be limited with what comes straight out of the box. Sadly, true innovation with the TESCS has been rare. More often than naught, the highest priority for most of the ESF Modders Forum faithful is "OMG! Teh randy skimpehness! w00t w00t!" Will the first mod be a grand adventure in new lands, filled with intrigue, plot twists, and new levels of soil erosion? Fuck no! It'll be a nudity mod. Not that there's much wrong with nudity in general, but therein lies the priorities of the kiddies over there.

I really, really wish that the modding community of TES could even glance the level of quality some of the NWN modders have done. Say what you will about NWN, but an honest comparison between mods for that game and mods for MW will show that the former has much better stuff available than the latter.

Books are wonderful. I've read damned near every Sci Fi/Fantasy book out there, and I totally agree they're immersive to a fault. The problem lies with their interactivity, but I don't really think that is a problem per se. People read books to immerse themselves into the author's world, using their own imaginations as a mental screen. This differs from games in that you don't have a role to play in affecting the story.

-D4
 

Claw

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Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
kathode said:
But that doesn't automatically win me more features fully formed. It is a long road from design doc to working feature in the game, no matter how many people you have.
You could as well argue that "having a driver's licence won't guarantee that you won't have an accident" in a debate about whether or not they (driver licenses) make sense.


I agree. However, I see no direct evidence that money solved any particular Sims developement problem.
It sounded to me like the point was that they didn't choose between improving one feature or implementing another, they did both. That naturally means more work, which is either done by more people or by making the people you have work more, which tends to be detrimental to quality. That is a problem money can solve.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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The_Good_Doctor said:
10-4 on Vampirism. Also lycanthropy was cut from Morrowind but they came back and made a whole expansion almost completely devoted to it. I wouldn't lose hope on becomming a werewolf.

Hooray! We get to buy content that was originally in Daggerfall as part of the package! That's almost as lame as people wanting a temple guild added in an expansion when both Daggerfall and Morrowind had them in the stock game.

It's kind of funny Kathode brings up the Sims and Maxis. You know what was offered in The Sims 2 over The Sims? A whole lot! They tossed in everything from The Sims. They also tossed in a bunch of stuff from the expansion packs to The Sims. They even added totally new game play constructs like the aspirations. So, The Sims 2 is a much, much larger experience over the original. It has more than the original game and even much of the things included in the original expansions.

Meanwhile, in Maryland.. Bethesda is cutting many of the original aspects from both Daggerfall and Morrowind. They're ditching guilds, weapons, skills, etc. What are they adding? Well, soil erosion, useless horses, Patrick Stewart, NPCs doing laundry, and other fluff - none of which really makes up for what's cut. So, how do the TES fans seem to react to this? "Hey, maybe we'll get to pay $30 for it later!" Brilliant.
 

Tintin

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Isn't it funny how people here insult kathode so much and yet he comes back and posts as if he's having fun?

And he said that in response to a question about skills being taken out. What's the logical inference to be drawn here? Obviously, that Bethesda is focusing on presentation over RPG mechanics.

Did you guys pass grade 1 reading comprehension? He said it's harder to implement something in a game nowadays than it was in Daggerfall, because in Daggerfall what you needed for a feature was much simpler than it is now. As in, would you be satisfied in horses being just 2d images that make noise in today's game.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Tintin said:
Did you guys pass grade 1 reading comprehension? He said it's harder to implement something in a game nowadays than it was in Daggerfall, because in Daggerfall what you needed for a feature was much simpler than it is now.
Yeah, it's so hard that 2 amateur developers did that without making much fuss about it. The reference is to Mount & Blade, in case some noobs are wondering.


As in, would you be satisfied in horses being just 2d images that make noise in today's game.
So, what exactly does the amazing 3D horse do in Oblivion?
 

Sarkile

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Tintin said:
As in, would you be satisfied in horses being just 2d images that make noise in today's game.
Is that really all that less impressive than just having a 3d image that makes noises like in Oblivion?
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
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Sarkile said:
Tintin said:
As in, would you be satisfied in horses being just 2d images that make noise in today's game.
Is that really all that less impressive than just having a 3d image that makes noises like in Oblivion?

If horses were 3d images that made noises in Oblivion.

Which somehow, just somehow by some force of supreme intellect, I doubt they are.

Yeah, it's so hard that 2 amateur developers did that without making much fuss about it. The reference is to Mount & Blade, in case some noobs are wondering.

Did what? Make Oblivion with mounted combat? Or make a game different from Oblivion with horse combat?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Tintin said:
Did what? Make Oblivion with mounted combat? Or make a game different from Oblivion with horse combat?
And the difference in regard to the topic of mounted combat is...? My point was that if two people can make it in their free time as a pet project, the almighty Bethesda could have made it too instead of trying to explain how complicated that whole mounted business is.

Similarly, if Jeff Vogel can program choices and consequences in his games, I'd expect no less from other companies instead of reading some pseudo-scientific crap about how that's physically and mathematically impossible (the exponental choices claim)
 

Roger P

Novice
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Aug 26, 2005
Messages
40
Geez, a game called "Mount & Blade" has mounted combat? I mean if that game has mounted combat, then I guess every game should, huh? What else could a horse be used for in a game?
 

Tintin

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Vault Dweller said:
Tintin said:
Did what? Make Oblivion with mounted combat? Or make a game different from Oblivion with horse combat?
And the difference in regard to the topic of mounted combat is...? My point was that if two people can make it in their free time as a pet project, the almighty Bethesda could have made it too instead of trying to explain how complicated that whole mounted business is.

Are you serious? Right, cause "Mount and Blade" has exactly the same features, the same factors involved in balancing it properly, the same world, the same programming, the same other gameplay aspects, the same...
 

Roger P

Novice
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Messages
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Vault Dweller is a amateur game developer who enjoys being incredulous about any limitaions other game developers may have, mainly professionals. The same goes for most members here.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
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Roger P said:
Geez, a game called "Mount & Blade" has mounted combat? I mean if that game has mounted combat, then I guess every game should, huh?
Every game shouldn't, but a game that was supposed to be all about "a knight on horseback running around and killing things" (Todd's quote) should, especially since the developers stated that they wanted to implement that, but couldn't for various reasons.

Vault Dweller is a amateur game developer who enjoys being incredulous about any limitaions other game developers may have, mainly professionals
Well, if two people could pull it off it's not really a limitation, is it now?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Tintin said:
Are you serious? Right, cause "Mount and Blade" has exactly the same features, the same factors involved in balancing it properly, the same world, the same programming, the same other gameplay aspects, the same...
Riiight, because Beth only got 1 programmers and 1 artist *rolls eyes*
 

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