Obsidian and inXile acquired by Microsoft

[Roguey]

You should put in there the disaster that was Caesar's Legion in New Vegas. I don't know the behind the scene and the problems they had with the title, so maybe it's not is fault, but the representation of Roman culture and Caesar and the roman military structure was extremely simplistic and reeked of modern liberal bias. (beside the butchered pronunciation of latin)

They weren't supposed to be Rome.

If you don't like Caesar as a person, that's not surprising. He's pretty unlikable for a variety of reasons. He is a domineering tyrant who runs things in a way where he is effectively unchallenged, and it produces a narrow vision in him. No one in the Legion *debates* Caesar, and he has ruled through brutality for so long that it's now just the way things work in Legion territory. Ultimately, Caesar is an educated tyrant living in an echo chamber of his own creation. Despite having a long-term vision for the future, he is quite short-sighted. If you were expecting Caesar to be grey and found him to be black, I'd argue that he's still grey, but he's intentionally a very dark grey. Tamerlane and Charles Taylor also had reasons for doing the things they did, but it doesn't make the things they did any less terrible.

On a related note, I've written before that I believe the gender roles in the Legion were not effectively communicated in the game. Through Legionaries, it is portrayed as misogyny, which was never the rationale I had in mind for Caesar's motivations. Caesar wanted women to stay out of battle because he wanted to produce as many Legionaries as possible as quickly as possible. It wasn't about the fighting (or other) capabilities of women, but the simple fact that women are the only ones who can bear children, so he wanted them doing that as much as possible. Unfortunately, I don't believe Caesar ever says anything about this directly, so the player is left with the very misogynistic statements of various Legionaries. It's still reprehensible, but for a different reason.
...
Soldiers in Caesar's Legion don't have personal freedom. They "get" to fight and die for Caesar. It's not a volunteer military, though many legionaries are born or raised into it, so they are effectively brainwashed.
...
Everyone is forced into service under the Legion. Morale among legionaries is good (because most are raised into it) and he doesn't really give a shit about publicity.
...
Ancient Romans were born into a patrician and plebeian society that was far more than a military organization. First, there was a Rome. Second, there were patrician families from which military commanders (not common Roman Legion scrubs) were groomed. But from bottom to top, Roman society revered Rome and Roman virtues.

I completely disagree with your statement about how people function. Going along with the way things are is *exactly* how most people function as human beings. And the younger people are indoctrinated, the more zealous they will be. You don't need to go that far back to see the power of this.
...
Don't conflate historical Rome with Caesar's Legion. There are no "Roman triumphs" for legionaries in the latter. I never suggested that they were separate but equal, only that it's a bizarre double-standard to insist on misogyny alone (which is quite different from "simple" sexism against females since it demands a level of hatred) considering that men are being forced (and, in fact, raised solely) to kill and die. If Lucius were to "retire", it would be through his own death.

Caesar doesn't hate women. He doesn't think they are incapable of doing things other than breeding. He has no problem with employing a female Courier to be his agent in the Mojave. But he does want his female slaves to breed more legionaries (as they are the only ones who CAN do it) and he wants his male slaves to fight. The females who can't breed are manual labor slaves (or killed), just as the males who can't fight are manual labor slaves (or killed).
...
Caesar's Legion is not the Roman Republic (nor the Roman Empire); it's a roving army comprised primarily of reconditioned slaves or children born to slaves. Non-Legion people live in areas controlled by the Legion, but those folks aren't *part* of the Legion (e.g. Dale Barton).
...
How is life for non-slave women in Legion-controlled territories? It's never shown in the game. It's one of the things I would have liked to explore more in Legion areas outside of the Fort. Certainly characters like Dale Barton indicate that there is life outside of the Legion itself even in territories they control.

And as Caesar puts it in-game

Thesis and antithesis. The Colorado River is my Rubicon. The NCR council will be eradicated, but the new synthesis will change the Legion as well... from a basically nomadic army to a standing military force that protects its citizens, and the power of its dictator.

 

[moon knight]

You should put in there the disaster that was Caesar's Legion in New Vegas. I don't know the behind the scene and the problems they had with the title, so maybe it's not is fault, but the representation of Roman culture and Caesar and the roman military structure was extremely simplistic and reeked of modern liberal bias. (beside the butchered pronunciation of latin)

They weren't supposed to be Rome.

If you don't like Caesar as a person, that's not surprising. He's pretty unlikable for a variety of reasons. He is a domineering tyrant who runs things in a way where he is effectively unchallenged, and it produces a narrow vision in him. No one in the Legion *debates* Caesar, and he has ruled through brutality for so long that it's now just the way things work in Legion territory. Ultimately, Caesar is an educated tyrant living in an echo chamber of his own creation. Despite having a long-term vision for the future, he is quite short-sighted. If you were expecting Caesar to be grey and found him to be black, I'd argue that he's still grey, but he's intentionally a very dark grey. Tamerlane and Charles Taylor also had reasons for doing the things they did, but it doesn't make the things they did any less terrible.

On a related note, I've written before that I believe the gender roles in the Legion were not effectively communicated in the game. Through Legionaries, it is portrayed as misogyny, which was never the rationale I had in mind for Caesar's motivations. Caesar wanted women to stay out of battle because he wanted to produce as many Legionaries as possible as quickly as possible. It wasn't about the fighting (or other) capabilities of women, but the simple fact that women are the only ones who can bear children, so he wanted them doing that as much as possible. Unfortunately, I don't believe Caesar ever says anything about this directly, so the player is left with the very misogynistic statements of various Legionaries. It's still reprehensible, but for a different reason.
...
Soldiers in Caesar's Legion don't have personal freedom. They "get" to fight and die for Caesar. It's not a volunteer military, though many legionaries are born or raised into it, so they are effectively brainwashed.
...
Everyone is forced into service under the Legion. Morale among legionaries is good (because most are raised into it) and he doesn't really give a shit about publicity.
...
Ancient Romans were born into a patrician and plebeian society that was far more than a military organization. First, there was a Rome. Second, there were patrician families from which military commanders (not common Roman Legion scrubs) were groomed. But from bottom to top, Roman society revered Rome and Roman virtues.

I completely disagree with your statement about how people function. Going along with the way things are is *exactly* how most people function as human beings. And the younger people are indoctrinated, the more zealous they will be. You don't need to go that far back to see the power of this.
...
Don't conflate historical Rome with Caesar's Legion. There are no "Roman triumphs" for legionaries in the latter. I never suggested that they were separate but equal, only that it's a bizarre double-standard to insist on misogyny alone (which is quite different from "simple" sexism against females since it demands a level of hatred) considering that men are being forced (and, in fact, raised solely) to kill and die. If Lucius were to "retire", it would be through his own death.

Caesar doesn't hate women. He doesn't think they are incapable of doing things other than breeding. He has no problem with employing a female Courier to be his agent in the Mojave. But he does want his female slaves to breed more legionaries (as they are the only ones who CAN do it) and he wants his male slaves to fight. The females who can't breed are manual labor slaves (or killed), just as the males who can't fight are manual labor slaves (or killed).
...
Caesar's Legion is not the Roman Republic (nor the Roman Empire); it's a roving army comprised primarily of reconditioned slaves or children born to slaves. Non-Legion people live in areas controlled by the Legion, but those folks aren't *part* of the Legion (e.g. Dale Barton).
...
How is life for non-slave women in Legion-controlled territories? It's never shown in the game. It's one of the things I would have liked to explore more in Legion areas outside of the Fort. Certainly characters like Dale Barton indicate that there is life outside of the Legion itself even in territories they control.

And as Caesar puts it in-game

Thesis and antithesis. The Colorado River is my Rubicon. The NCR council will be eradicated, but the new synthesis will change the Legion as well... from a basically nomadic army to a standing military force that protects its citizens, and the power of its dictator.

I see. Maybe I rushed the judgment on them when I saw them in game and that rushed judgment has stuck on me since today.

 

[fantadomat]

I suppose that's true, but unlike Avellone, no one can directly attribute to him anything they liked about a specific Bioware game.

Actually, EA is actively spinning that shit right now: "Look, it's Casey Hudson! He MADE Mass Effect! That's why Anthem is going to be AMAZING!" Despite the fact that Anthem is an online grindfest and Hudson now is just a manager.

The sad this is that, it's actually working.

It is amusing since Casey Hudson was the guy that killed the ME games with that garbage ME3. Also he wasn't the one who made the other two. It was Drew Karpyshyn that made all the good stuff in those games. It is amazing how in the modern corporate structure,the only people that get recognized are the incompetent slimes like Hudson. All the creative people just leave and retire or begin making indies.

 

[Gerrard]

Enough with the fake news already...

How many times do these links have to be posted until you stop resisting reality?

Pillars of Eternity 2 has flopped really hard, sold only 110K copies worldwide until September 2018
PILLARS OF ETERNITY 2 HAS BEEN A SALES DISASTER

Pillows 2 flopped fucking hard. Yes, Sawyerism sucks that much.

sis, since when have sales ever meant quality? 6ix9ine must be the best rapper in the world according to your galaxy brain logic

If even the people who bought the first one didn't buy the 2nd that probably means it's shit.

 

[Latelistener]

It is amusing since Casey Hudson was the guy that killed the ME games with that garbage ME3. Also he wasn't the one who made the other two. It was Drew Karpyshyn that made all the good stuff in those games. It is amazing how in the modern corporate structure,the only people that get recognized are the incompetent slimes like Hudson. All the creative people just leave and retire or begin making indies.

Can't say Karpyshyn is a great writer. If he was, he probably wouldn't be writing for games.

I mean, if we'll take a solid B level like Cook, he would definitely be below that.

But he had a vision for the trilogy and Hudson and Walters ruined it with their organics vs robotics shit and RGB ending. Yet, Biodrones already forgot that.

 

[TemplarGR]

You should put in there the disaster that was Caesar's Legion in New Vegas. I don't know the behind the scene and the problems they had with the title, so maybe it's not his fault, but the representation of Roman culture and Caesar and the roman military structure was extremely simplistic and reeked of modern liberal bias. (beside the butchered pronunciation of latin)

Or maybe it was done on purpose to represent the legion as ignorant larpers roman wannabes?

Wait, i thought this was the general consensus? No? I always thought it was the case.

 

[moon knight]

If even the people who bought the first one didn't buy the 2nd that probably means it's shit.

No, that just means that people didn't like the first Pillars.

 

[TemplarGR]

Or perhaps a group of idiots with an axe to grind campaigned online against that game making it look worse than it was, out of spite. "Everyone" claims Deadfire is shit yet only a few have bought it and only a tiny percentage of those who bought it have completed it. Then how comes everyone claims it is shit? Where that "knowledge" come from?

RETARDED CODEXERS!

I hate dumb "hate bandwagons". In the end, the crpg genre has lost a lot with Deadfire's apparent flop. I will be reminding every retard in this forum in the following years of decline and no-releases who is to blame for this shit. Idiots.

 

[Bohr]

Or perhaps a group of idiots with an axe to grind campaigned online against that game making it look worse than it was, out of spite. "Everyone" claims Deadfire is shit yet only a few have bought it and only a tiny percentage of those who bought it have completed it. Then how comes everyone claims it is shit? Where that "knowledge" come from?

RETARDED CODEXERS!

I hate dumb "hate bandwagons". In the end, the crpg genre has lost a lot with Deadfire's apparent flop. I will be reminding every retard in this forum in the following years of decline and no-releases who is to blame for this shit. Idiots.

Seems like you're ascribing a lot of influence to a niche forum like this. Think I recall you repeatedly stating the opinion that sales "are all that matter" and that they can be an indicator of quality?

[quick search on 'sales'/'sold']

People are not dumb. They don't spend money on things they don't enjoy, unless they are tricked into it. But you can only trick them so many times. So sales, in addition to some logical analysis, are a decent metric for the quality of most games.

In the end, sales are all that matters. I don't care about critical or user acclaim.
...
Fact of life: People don't pay money on things they don't enjoy, no matter what forum posters, game critics, and other people say... They enjoy FO4 far more than other games. There is a reason for that. Try to understand it and drop the elitist attitude people...

I hate eco-chambers and circlejerks. The Planescape Torment worship is a great example of why. It was a mediocre game even by late 90s standards, which is why it never sold well, and really, outside of a cult following, no one even knew this game back then.

 

[TemplarGR]

Seems like you're ascribing a lot of influence to a niche forum like this. Think I recall you repeatedly stating the opinion that sales "are all that matter" and that they can be an indicator of quality?

[quick search on 'sales'/'sold']

1) For niche genres and games, forums like this have a lot of influence. Yes, on the grand scheme of things, a forum like this can't influence the sales of GTA V and Skyrim in the slightest. But we are talking about niche IE-clone games here... Crowdfunded games with much less exposure, much less mainstream appeal. Most people who ought to know about niche games like this, visit the codex or are in contact with people visiting the codex. The hate bandwagon influence spreads a lot in that case...

2) Yes, indeed, sales matter and show a preference. Which is why when Deadfire failed sales-wise, it means no more isometric crpgs for you. Company managers see that failure and act accordingly. So that hatred you spewed about Deadfire, that was uneeded btw because it is a great game, will come and bite you in the ass.

 

[Rake]

Can't say Karpyshyn is a great writer. If he was, he probably wouldn't be writing for games.

I mean, if we'll take a solid B level like Cook, he would definitely be below that.

https://www.goodreads.com/series/122018-the-chaos-born

 

[Bohr]

2) Yes, indeed, sales matter and show a preference. Which is why when Deadfire failed sales-wise, it means no more isometric crpgs for you. Company managers see that failure and act accordingly. So that hatred you spewed about Deadfire, that was uneeded btw because it is a great game, will come and bite you in the ass.

Ok, think I got it. For most games low sales means the game is shit, with Deadfire it means the Codex is shit.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

2) Yes, indeed, sales matter and show a preference. Which is why when Deadfire failed sales-wise, it means no more isometric crpgs for you. Company managers see that failure and act accordingly. So that hatred you spewed about Deadfire, that was uneeded btw because it is a great game, will come and bite you in the ass.

Deadfire was a commercial failure because Obsidian poured too much money into it. Kingmaker seems to be selling only marginally better, but it's a commercial success because they made it in Russia for a lot less money. Kingmaker is far superior to Deadfire with two or three times as much content.

If Deadfire means game studios stop making one of the most labor intensive genres in the most expensive city on earth, that's not the end of the world. The success of Kingmaker means we're going to get more of this stuff from Owlcat. Their publisher was thrilled about how the game's doing on their latest quarterly conference call. Paizo seems to love them. I would be incredibly surprised if they don't end up making another Pathfinder CRPG.

The industry's doing fine. And Obsidian is going back to what they do best: big, multi-platform ARPGs like New Vegas.

 

[Lhynn]

I singlehandedly caused poe2 to fail with my shitposting.

I regret nothing.

 

[Big Wrangle]

Deadfire was a commercial failure because Obsidian poured too much money into it.

And that's without even getting to the god-tier marketing by Versus Evil aka sleep on the game and only get to work at the final week before release.

 

[Rake]

2) Yes, indeed, sales matter and show a preference. Which is why when Deadfire failed sales-wise, it means no more isometric crpgs for you. Company managers see that failure and act accordingly.

Make it "no more isometric crpgs from obsidian" and you may have a point. Otherwise, not so much
Owlcat was very happy with kingmakers sales, Iron Tower the same with Aod.
We can excpect Druidstone, Copper Dreams, Disco Elysium, Realms Beyond, Fallen Gods, Colony Ship RPG, plus propably whatever game Owlcat does next, and these are the games I 'm interested from the top of my head. There are other games that would appeal to most Codexers that i don't care about but most do. So i can't see how Deadfire's failure will affect us much.
Yes, if someone liked PoEs, the game's flop will affect him. But if someone genuinely disliked the games, why should he feel bad if Obsidian doesn't make another isometric game ever again?

 

[Sailor Woedica]

If even the people who bought the first one didn't buy the 2nd that probably means it's shit.

So because Atrocity Exhibition by Danny Brown barely sold and streamed enough to recoup production costs that album is, by your galaxy brain logic, probably worse than all his other work even tho its widely considered one of his best albums? please sit down sis.

 

[2house2fly]

how can iut be "widely considered" anything if nobody listened to it?

 

[Sailor Woedica]

how can iut be "widely considered" anything if nobody listened to it?

because anthony fantano gave it a 9/10

 

[Life of the Party]

I singlehandedly caused poe2 to fail with my shitposting.

I regret nothing.

Après moi, le décline.

 

[Big Wrangle]

Après moi, le déclin.

Here ya go!

 

[glass blackbird]

the legion was one giant strawman and any attempt to flesh them out was almost entirely cut out sans a few sentences from certain npcs(e.g., cass saying she's envious of how safe legion merchants are)

They were supposed to be part of Van Buren

One of the few big things I did on Van Buren was taking an organization Chris invented and changing it (perhaps mangling it in the process) into a neo-Roman slavers' legion with all the weird titles, makeshift costumes, and traditions of that group.

Either way the legion is garbage. And it's clear that Sawyer, like all the muricans, doesn't understand the difference between colonial slavery in the US and Roman (and ancient world in general)'s slavery

you know they're not literal romans, right? they didn't time travel from the past

 

[J_C]

the legion was one giant strawman and any attempt to flesh them out was almost entirely cut out sans a few sentences from certain npcs(e.g., cass saying she's envious of how safe legion merchants are)

They were supposed to be part of Van Buren

One of the few big things I did on Van Buren was taking an organization Chris invented and changing it (perhaps mangling it in the process) into a neo-Roman slavers' legion with all the weird titles, makeshift costumes, and traditions of that group.

Either way the legion is garbage. And it's clear that Sawyer, like all the muricans, doesn't understand the difference between colonial slavery in the US and Roman (and ancient world in general)'s slavery

you know they're not literal romans, right? they didn't time travel from the past

Exactly. They are americans, acting like the romans using the limited knowledge about them. The way they appear in the game makes perfect sense.

 

[Father Foreskin]

The reasons for Poe2's failure are more nuanced than high expences with declining sales. The sales were also affected by the following:

- Fig instead of Kickstarter. Less visibility on a obscure platform.

-Avellone drama. Took away attention from the game.

- Publisher switched, probably due Tranny failing commercially

-Heavier competition ie. Dos2

-Larger focus on one autistic developer

And they say that Failures have no fathers.

 

[santino27]

Enough with the fake news already...

How many times do these links have to be posted until you stop resisting reality?

Pillars of Eternity 2 has flopped really hard, sold only 110K copies worldwide until September 2018
PILLARS OF ETERNITY 2 HAS BEEN A SALES DISASTER

Pillows 2 flopped fucking hard. Yes, Sawyerism sucks that much.

sis, since when have sales ever meant quality? 6ix9ine must be the best rapper in the world according to your galaxy brain logic

That's fine, but if you look at the thread you're replying to, we're not talking quality. We're talking success. If the posted numbers are true, Deadfire was objectively not a success.

You could try to argue that it's a critical success and a commercial failure, but I think that will be a hard argument to make, given the mixed reaction it's received from players. At best, it could become successful on the level of a cult classic if people discover it and love it in the future.... but we're a long way from being able to make that determination (and it seems pretty unlikely, given how little people seemed to care about the release).