Mage Vs. Wizard & Thief Vs. Rogue

[KainenMorden]

Acquiring magic skills by rigorous study is just a dorky nerd power fantasy. unsubstantiated by any of the mythological sources from which fantasy draws from.

Not quite, not quite. The kabbalists, for example, are supposedly gaining their powers through extensive study. The hermeticists likewise.

...and how is that not a dorky nerd power fantasy?

It is, but at the same time those are some of the mythological sources from which fantasy draws from

Odysseus was the first necromancer on record and he was taught necromantic rites by Circe who was of divine origin. Odysseus also defends himself from what may be the earliest recorded magic attack (that we have knowledge of) by Circe by using an herb but this knowledge was revealed to him by the god, Hermes. Odysseus himself was reputed to be the great grandson of Hermes but being related to a god in greco roman myth didn't automatically give you magical powers.

The concept of the art and practice of magic/magical rites in the ancient world was variously associated with divinity and evil. Zoroaster, the greco roman conception of this supposed person, is thought to have introduced the concept of magi/magic to the greco roman world and he was thought to be a prophet. He was also a teacher and magic could be taught to others.

Gandalf was something like an angel that could manifest various physical appearances. It's not stated explicitly in the books but he did travel amongst elves, orcs and men, he may have learned some spells from them but maybe all of his power was divine.

Merlin is a character who is thought to have emerged through the fusion of earlier traditions/mythological and historical figures and there is quite a bit of contention concerning his origins. He is commonly thought to have been the son of a mortal woman and an incubus. His demonic parentage is where he got his magical abilities from and having a parent that was a demon was thought to often result in physical deformity or the creation of a wizard/witch in medieval times.

Dnds' conception of magic heavily draws from the writing of Jack Vance in which humans could memorize spells if they had access to them in written form although some magical learning happened on different planes of existence.

Is the wizard a nerd power fantasy? Well of course it is but you could say that about roleplaying in general depending on the player/game in question. Not all rpg players are unathletic nerds though that is the stereotype and is often the case though I personally know exceptions.

The wizard is the nerd overcoming and outshining the jock(warriors) with brain power. That can happen in real life as well but typically after college when the nerd has a good job and the jock who didn't study or make it as a pro athlete drifts from one dead end job to another.

 

[Norfleet]

Not quite, not quite. The kabbalists, for example, are supposedly gaining their powers through extensive study. The hermeticists likewise.

Study of how to commune with higher powers, yes. That's divine magic rather than D&D-style wizardry.

Odysseus was the first necromancer on record and he was taught necromantic rites by Circe who was of divine origin. Odysseus also defends himself from what may be the earliest recorded magic attack (that we have knowledge of) by Circe by using an herb but this knowledge was revealed to him by the god, Hermes. Odysseus himself was reputed to be the great grandson of Hermes but being related to a god in greco roman myth didn't automatically give you magical powers.

It didn't automatically give you magic powers, but the capacity to do so is contingent on being magical by nature. You don't see mythological figures being "random pig farmer". If the figure is a pig farmer, it'll be revealed that he is of magical blood or nature.

Gandalf was something like an angel that could manifest various physical appearances. It's not stated explicitly in the books but he did travel amongst elves, orcs and men, he may have learned some spells from them but maybe all of his power was divine.

Gandalf is a magic being, yes. His ability to be a wizard is not because of something he studied as a normal schlub, but his intrinsic nature as a magical being.

He is commonly thought to have been the son of a mortal woman and an incubus. His demonic parentage is where he got his magical abilities from and having a parent that was a demon was thought to often result in physical deformity or the creation of a wizard/witch in medieval times.

So, again, he's magic.

Wielding of magic in mythology and legend seems to always be contingent on either pacts or communion with otherworldly powers, and/or being of magical nature. To be fair, being a mythical hero of martial or otherwise physical might also tends to revolve around being of magical origin. Your sword-wielding hero generally isn't a random schlub either, but a descendant of a god or something.

 

[KainenMorden]

Not quite, not quite. The kabbalists, for example, are supposedly gaining their powers through extensive study. The hermeticists likewise.

Study of how to commune with higher powers, yes. That's divine magic rather than D&D-style wizardry.

Odysseus was the first necromancer on record and he was taught necromantic rites by Circe who was of divine origin. Odysseus also defends himself from what may be the earliest recorded magic attack (that we have knowledge of) by Circe by using an herb but this knowledge was revealed to him by the god, Hermes. Odysseus himself was reputed to be the great grandson of Hermes but being related to a god in greco roman myth didn't automatically give you magical powers.

It didn't automatically give you magic powers, but the capacity to do so is contingent on being magical by nature. You don't see mythological figures being "random pig farmer". If the figure is a pig farmer, it'll be revealed that he is of magical blood or nature.

Gandalf was something like an angel that could manifest various physical appearances. It's not stated explicitly in the books but he did travel amongst elves, orcs and men, he may have learned some spells from them but maybe all of his power was divine.

Gandalf is a magic being, yes. His ability to be a wizard is not because of something he studied as a normal schlub, but his intrinsic nature as a magical being.

He is commonly thought to have been the son of a mortal woman and an incubus. His demonic parentage is where he got his magical abilities from and having a parent that was a demon was thought to often result in physical deformity or the creation of a wizard/witch in medieval times.

So, again, he's magic.

Wielding of magic in mythology and legend seems to always be contingent on either pacts or communion with otherworldly powers, and/or being of magical nature. To be fair, being a mythical hero of martial or otherwise physical might also tends to revolve around being of magical origin. Your sword-wielding hero generally isn't a random schlub either, but a descendant of a god or something.

Yes but there was always the belief that magic could be taught or learned by others.

Most if not all heroes and great magicians in Greek mythology were thought to have some descent from gods with a notable exception in Pythagoras. Not much is known of his parentage but I'm not aware of a tradition that thought he was of divine origin. He is thought to have instructed his followers in the ways of magic and even in how to go about attaining immortality.

Just as Zoroaster, who was not thought to be descended from gods but was a priest/prophet, had followers who practiced magic, known as magi. Again, the mythological traditions of magic throughout Europe that dnd draws heavily from ultimately disseminated mostly from greco roman magic myth/practices that trace their origins mostly to the teachings of Zoroaster. I believe that while magic was rooted in otherworldly sources, it was believed it could be taught. Romans took this very seriously making edicts/laws against the use of magic for nefarious purposes long before the rise of Christianity. Surely they didn't believe that all practitioners of magic were descended from gods.

I'd also say the conception of ancient/mythological magicians would, in most cases, be a hybrid wizard/cleric or sorcerer/cleric in dnd terms. There was an association made between magic, paganism and various macabre rituals including human sacrifice.

The existence of druids and where the ideas of druidism emerged from are a contentious topic among scholars. Though certain mythological druids were thought to be descended from gods, young men were also trained to be druids and I've never seen anything to suggest that a prerequisite for being a druid was to have a god or goddess in your blood line.

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong but the concept of learning to wield magic without being innately magical but doing so through study/training is not something that's foreign to the ancient mythological conceptions of magic.

I'd also say that ultimately Jack Vance's ideas about magic figure more prominently in the dnd magic system than mythology does. The system is called Vancian magic after all. Innate magical powers through a sorcerer came in later editions

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

I like Illusionists and Enchanters.

 

[Zlaja]

I like Illusionists and Enchanters.

That's 'cause they're Jewish.

 

[Storyfag]

I like Illusionists and Enchanters.

And I like Transmuters and fire-focused Evocators. Both can turn others to ashes, if you catch my drift.

Not to mention Necromancers who will efficiently put the bodies of their victims to a good use.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Mage or Magic-User was the term that predated 3E. After sorcerers, warlocks, and other CHA casters became part of base D&D, distinctions needed to be made. Hence, wizard. Mage is now a broad based term for full arcane casters. Rogue is similar to mage, but replaced Thief to distinguish the broader mechanics and role of the class in 3E and beyond.

 

[Caim]

How about them Fighting-Men? You'd expect someone whose list of tricks is big hp, big damage output and big armor would be the guy with the XP to branch out compared to the other classes who are often the designated skill monkey, the Thief and Bard, who have a whole bunch of larceny and music/lore stuff respectively. A Fighting-Man who has a lot less going on out of the box would make for a perfect support character in this regard, if only to balance them a bit with the rest of the party.

 

[Arbiter]

prefer magic-user to either mage or wizard

IMO "magic-user" sound as artificial as "sword-user".

 

[Cryomancer]

After sorcerers, warlocks, and other CHA casters became part of base D&D,

Not truth. They existed in 2E as "kits" for magic users. From AD&D 2nd Edition - The Complete Wizard's Handbook

Wich/Warlock, Wu Jen, Sorcerer(ss) and other stuff which where kits in 2E become fully fledged classes in 3E.

And Wizards used to be a "title" of magic user, akin to a "Baron" IRL.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Cryomancer "base D&D". As in, core rule book. Not a splatbook.

 

[FFTW]

After sorcerers, warlocks, and other CHA casters became part of base D&D,

Not truth. They existed in 2E as "kits" for magic users. From AD&D 2nd Edition - The Complete Wizard's Handbook

Wich/Warlock, Wu Jen, Sorcerer(ss) and other stuff which where kits in 2E become fully fledged classes in 3E.

And Wizards used to be a "title" of magic user, akin to a "Baron" IRL.

Some of these kits sound hilarious lol.

Were the kits implemented in any video games that used 2nd Edition D&D?

 

[mondblut]

Were the kits implemented in any video games that used 2nd Edition D&D?

BG2.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

burglar > *

 

[Rincewind]

How about wizzards and sourcerers?

 

[Rincewind]

They started using the term Rogue because it is a more general term than Thief, and not everyone who wanted to play the class envisioned their character as a person that went around stealing things.

Even though all Player Characters gain wealth primarily through stealing from people and things they kill, anyway.

They should've just called them wealth re-distribution specialists.

 

[Cryomancer]

Were the kits implemented in any video games that used 2nd Edition D&D?

BG2 Wild mage, not from this book but from tome of magic.

 

[Darkozric]

 

[Camel]

Thieves and rogues aren't real

 

[Vic]

This reminds me of this picture on how to turn on men vs women:

 

[Camel]

I think any kid that fantasizes about being a wizard/mage, rather than a bulky barbarian or stoic paladin, has some serious issues.

Not all mages are weaklings.

 

[lukaszek]

Not all mages are weaklings.

and how is image of norse god helping your argument?

 

[Camel]

and how is image of norse god helping your argument?

Odin was mocked by Loki for using magic. Also Loki is an archetypical trickster or rogue.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Odin was mocked by Loki for using magic.

Loki did nothing wrong here.

 

[lukaszek]

and how is image of norse god helping your argument?

Odin was mocked by Loki for using magic. Also Loki is an archetypical trickster or rogue.

still not relevant.

My take way though is that you fantasize about long shafts