Mac Walters leaves Bioware

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Jade Empire was Bioware trying to ride the mini craze of chinese fantasy cinema that got relatively popular in the early 00s with movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero and House of the Flying Daggers.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Jade Empire was Bioware trying to ride the mini craze of chinese fantasy cinema that got relatively popular in the early 00s with movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero and House of the Flying Daggers.

Hero and House of Flying Daggers only came out in America in 2004, they didn’t have anything to do with Jade Empire getting made. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon may have. But Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and other Hong Kong movies had been huge throughout the '90s (at least by the mid ‘90s) in the rental market. Like, Jackie Chan and Jet Li were already pretty well known when Rush Hour and Lethal Weapon 4 came out in ‘98. Turns out Martial Law started in ‘98 as well.

 

[anvi]

Retiring people is like the main goal of EA.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

The 2004 preview E3 footage that was on the OXM demo disc makes me think the big idea behind Jada Empire (beside Hong Kong kung fu movies) was arcade games. The only aspect of this that’s still a thing in the final game is the terrible 1942-ish vertical scrolling shooter. But, in the first footage of the game they showed off the year before it came out, the combat looks like it was originally meant to be more like a 2D fighting game. It looks like a terrible 2D fighting game...but a 2D fighting game seems to be what they were going for. It kind of seems like the original idea was a Action RPG inspired by Capcom games, and then probably scrapped that idea when they added the party member that fights alongside you. Although I’d imagine outside of a perspective change the combat may not have been much different from what they did in the final game.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

It was certainly a failed attempt at jumping into the console market with a console centric game. KOTOR was of help but it was still a pc-styled game. Kind of weird to think about this effort after the success Mass Effect ended up having though.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Jade Empire was Bioware trying to ride the mini craze of chinese fantasy cinema that got relatively popular in the early 00s with movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero and House of the Flying Daggers.

Hero and House of Flying Daggers only came out in America in 2004, they didn’t have anything to do with Jade Empire getting made. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon may have. But Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and other Hong Kong movies had been huge throughout the '90s (at least by the mid ‘90s) in the rental market. Like, Jackie Chan and Jet Li were already pretty well known when Rush Hour and Lethal Weapon 4 came out in ‘98. Turns out Martial Law started in ‘98 as well.

Either way, those didn't have the impact that Crouching Tiger did (in general, I don't know if anyone at Bioware ever actually mentioned specific inspirations). That movie was huge at the time and was being talked up everywhere.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Jade Empire was Bioware trying to ride the mini craze of chinese fantasy cinema that got relatively popular in the early 00s with movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero and House of the Flying Daggers.

Hero and House of Flying Daggers only came out in America in 2004, they didn’t have anything to do with Jade Empire getting made. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon may have. But Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and other Hong Kong movies had been huge throughout the '90s (at least by the mid ‘90s) in the rental market. Like, Jackie Chan and Jet Li were already pretty well known when Rush Hour and Lethal Weapon 4 came out in ‘98. Turns out Martial Law started in ‘98 as well.

Either way, those didn't have the impact that Crouching Tiger did (in general, I don't know if anyone at Bioware ever actually mentioned specific inspirations). That movie was huge at the time and was being talked up everywhere.

Crouching Tiger was the one that put those martial arts flicks in a more respectable view, because even if it was basic wuxia at its core, it was much better filmed and acted than the usual Hong Kong schlock. The other didn't have the same impact, yes, but that's a given when you're trying to normalize things... They still got worldwide distribution in cinemas and home video though.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Crouching Tiger was the one that put those martial arts flicks in a more respectable view, because even if it was basic wuxia at its core, it was much better filmed and acted than the usual Hong Kong schlock. The other didn't have the same impact, yes, but that's a given when you're trying to normalize things... They still got worldwide distribution in cinemas and home video though.

Yeah, I liked all three of them personally, but if they came out after Jade Empire, then they aren't relevant as inspirations for it or part of Bioware's decision making. Anything that is relevant would have to have been prior to them starting development. I don't know the specifics about these timelines. All I do know is that every time Bioware tried to make something actiony without outside help, it was shit.

 

[Tyranicon]

Jade Empire was Bioware trying to ride the mini craze of chinese fantasy cinema that got relatively popular in the early 00s with movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero and House of the Flying Daggers.

Hero and House of Flying Daggers only came out in America in 2004, they didn’t have anything to do with Jade Empire getting made. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon may have. But Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and other Hong Kong movies had been huge throughout the '90s (at least by the mid ‘90s) in the rental market. Like, Jackie Chan and Jet Li were already pretty well known when Rush Hour and Lethal Weapon 4 came out in ‘98. Turns out Martial Law started in ‘98 as well.

Either way, those didn't have the impact that Crouching Tiger did (in general, I don't know if anyone at Bioware ever actually mentioned specific inspirations). That movie was huge at the time and was being talked up everywhere.

Crouching Tiger was the one that put those martial arts flicks in a more respectable view, because even if it was basic wuxia at its core, it was much better filmed and acted than the usual Hong Kong schlock. The other didn't have the same impact, yes, but that's a given when you're trying to normalize things... They still got worldwide distribution in cinemas and home video though.

Good Wuxia is badass. I wish we got more of it, instead of whatever "epic" fantasy shit Chinese filmmakers are doing now.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Jade Empire was Bioware trying to ride the mini craze of chinese fantasy cinema that got relatively popular in the early 00s with movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero and House of the Flying Daggers.

Hero and House of Flying Daggers only came out in America in 2004, they didn’t have anything to do with Jade Empire getting made. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon may have. But Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and other Hong Kong movies had been huge throughout the '90s (at least by the mid ‘90s) in the rental market. Like, Jackie Chan and Jet Li were already pretty well known when Rush Hour and Lethal Weapon 4 came out in ‘98. Turns out Martial Law started in ‘98 as well.

Either way, those didn't have the impact that Crouching Tiger did (in general, I don't know if anyone at Bioware ever actually mentioned specific inspirations). That movie was huge at the time and was being talked up everywhere.

In the OXM interview (that’s in the magazine) they did list off a few movies. I don’t really remember what they were, but Magnificent Butcher was one I think. Yes, Madam may have been one too. I don’t think any of the movies they listed were really in the same style of fantasy as what they’re doing in Jade Empire. Star Wars feels like it was about as big an influence on Jade Empire as it was their Star Wars game. There is a event, not quite a quest, where you come across a kid and can either save them or given them a sword to kill their attack which is basically the story of Casca meeting Griffith in Berserk...the ‘97 Berserk anime had been out for a few years before Jade Empire came out, so it’s possible they got that from there. I know I’d seen the Berserk anime a few years before Jade Empire came out anyways, and when that moment came up, I was like: Berserk.

As for impact, depends on what “those” are. The pre Crouching Tiger Hong Kong movies that were big from like ‘95 up to Crouching Tiger definitely had more impact than Crouching Tiger did. Those (combined with the Hong Kong handover) are why you had Hong Kong actors and directors primed for Hollywood. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon could have been why BioWare thought it was a good time do Jade Empire; but I’d guess it came about from them renting kung fu movies in the mid ‘90s.

The Matrix, and how big a deal they made of Yuen Woo-ping doing the fight choreography for it, probably had a bigger impact than Crouching Tiger too.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Jade Empire was Bioware trying to ride the mini craze of chinese fantasy cinema that got relatively popular in the early 00s with movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero and House of the Flying Daggers.

Hero and House of Flying Daggers only came out in America in 2004, they didn’t have anything to do with Jade Empire getting made. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon may have. But Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and other Hong Kong movies had been huge throughout the '90s (at least by the mid ‘90s) in the rental market. Like, Jackie Chan and Jet Li were already pretty well known when Rush Hour and Lethal Weapon 4 came out in ‘98. Turns out Martial Law started in ‘98 as well.

Either way, those didn't have the impact that Crouching Tiger did (in general, I don't know if anyone at Bioware ever actually mentioned specific inspirations). That movie was huge at the time and was being talked up everywhere.

In the OXM interview (that’s in the magazine) they did list off a few movies. I don’t really remember what they were, but Magnificent Butcher was one I think. Yes, Madam may have been one too. I don’t think any of the movies they listed were really in the same style of fantasy as what they’re doing in Jade Empire. Star Wars feels like it was about as big an influence on Jade Empire as it was their Star Wars game. There is a event, not quite a quest, where you come across a kid and can either save them or given them a sword to kill their attack which is basically the story of Casca meeting Griffith in Berserk...the ‘97 Berserk anime had been out for a few years before Jade Empire came out, so it’s possible they got that from there. I know I’d seen the Berserk anime a few years before Jade Empire came out anyways, and when that moment came up, I was like: Berserk.

As for impact, depends on what “those” are. The pre Crouching Tiger Hong Kong movies that were big from like ‘95 up to Crouching Tiger definitely had more impact than Crouching Tiger did. Those (combined with the Hong Kong handover) are why you had Hong Kong actors and directors primed for Hollywood. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon could have been why BioWare thought it was a good time do Jade Empire; but I’d guess it came about from them renting kung fu movies in the mid ‘90s.

The Matrix, and how big a deal they made of Yuen Woo-ping doing the fight choreography for it, probably had a bigger impact than Crouching Tiger too.

I wouldn't discard some Berserk influence. I remember being into Berserk, or at least aware of it, in the very early 2000s, certainly before JE came out. Berserk was certainly a cult thing already and "that manga" people used to read. Like, it wasn't like you were reading Dragon Ball or something like that. It could be similar to Game of Thrones influencing Dragon Age (to the point of it being written all over Origins, sometimes it feels like fanfic), because even if the general public wasn't aware of it the devs obviously were.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Jade Empire was like trying to sell condoms to lesbians. They put an Asian setting RPG that used RTwP combat on Xbox.

It wasn't really RtwP in the sense that people here imagine it. It had a pause feature sure, but you never really had a reason to pause the game. All the combat forms could be hotkeyed, so you could change up without ever pausing. Jade Empire was pretty much just a straight up ARPG. Well, barely an RPG. I don't actually recall if it had stats, it barely had any itemization. Most of it was just in the form of these jewel things that buffed persuade/intimidate/bluff skills.

You're right though, the setting was far too niche, actually, a niche of a niche. Asian Wuxia that's confined purely to unarmed combat (with a few exceptions far too late in the game for them to matter). Practically no itemization, no character building. Bear in mind, the insanity went even further, THIS was the IP that they chose to pass on making KotOR II for. I'd love to know who it was that thought that was a prudent financial decision.

 

[mediocrepoet]

THIS was the IP that they chose to pass on making KotOR II for. I'd love to know who it was that thought that was a prudent financial decision.

The thing is, if they'd have delivered a game that was worth playing, it would've been a good decision. Owning your own successful IP is more likely to garner you mega profits than licensing an already successful IP that you're paying through the nose for. Emphasis on successful.

They rolled the dice on themselves and lost. Probably why they gave up on rolling dice and just started making friend and lover simulators for the perpetually unwashed.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Owning your own successful IP is more likely to garner you mega profits than licensing an already successful IP that you're paying through the nose for.

Agree, however it was a bad idea from the get go for them. Bioware's writing was never more than passable for game standards, and unbeknownst to practically everyone, the big IPs they secured concealed that deficiency with adding interesting settings, characters and scenarios that they could pull from. Companion sidequests and romances were really the only thing they were ever good at, aside from balancing easy combat. Jade Empire was the point we got to see what would happen when left to their own devices and they produced a retread of KotOR, to the point they even recycled some of the dialogue responses. Even in those two departments they were good at, they barely put any effort into it making anything new. Everyone has seen the meme listing all the similarities between NWN, K1, JE, DA, ME characters.

The way I saw it, NWN OC whiffed badly but there were some ideas that were salvageable from it, redone in K1 to massively positive reception with the addition of VO (whatever you thought of it, it showed off possibilities at the time), that's fine, whatever.

Enter Jade Empire and "We're just gonna do it again with more China this time." As tech improved, they should have headed back to BGII levels of content. With their own IPs though, it's like they had no original ideas. It had been Neverwinter Nights: Redux: Electric Boogaloo for 10 years until everyone got bored and quit or got cleared out. Now the new stock have moved in and are on to making reddit-tier degenerate fanfiction of already bland IPs with DA:I and ME:A.

Anyway, they were always better off playing in somebody else's sandbox. I could almost think part of why that decade-long lack of innovation happened was an over-cautious fear of accidentally ripping somebody else's IP off, coupled with being too uncreative to come up with their own ideas, but then I remember Dragon Age and realize it's just the latter.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Sure but also remember their attitude around that era and talking up Dragon Age, etc. and how Gaider was. They were pretty far up their own asses for a long time before the wheels fell off for real, so it's not really surprising they were all: we're the best creatives in the industry! Our own IP will definitely be more lucrative than Star Wars!

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Sure but also remember their attitude around that era and talking up Dragon Age, etc. and how Gaider was. They were pretty far up their own asses for a long time before the wheels fell off for real, so it's not really surprising they were all: we're the best creatives in the industry! Our own IP will definitely be more lucrative than Star Wars!

See, I had always thought they started the fart-huffing sort of around pre-release of Mass Effect, but I wasn't paying enough attention to the media in 2005. I only noticed in 2007 or so.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Regardless of the quality of the game, and I’m not a fan of how Jade Empire plays at all, the thing that probably hurt that game’s sales the most was not coming out on 360. Jade Empire came out the same year the 360 did, yet for whatever reason it wasn’t a launch title when it easily could’ve been.

BioWare did start development on Jade Empire 2 after Jade Empire was finished. Sounds like they were trying to make a martial arts version of The Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction; (and Prototype) it also sound like they were aware of that game, or really even open world games in general given the problems they’d run into but couldn’t figure out. They worked on some version of that game for a few wheel spinning years before BioWare killed it.

I’m slightly surprised BioWare never just contracted some little Japanese developer whose whole deal is doing contract work for publishers like Namco, Sega, and Capcom and have them handle the gameplay side of a Jade Empire 2.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Enter Jade Empire and "We're just gonna do it again with more China this time." As tech improved, they should have headed back to BGII levels of content. With their own IPs though, it's like they had no original ideas. It had been Neverwinter Nights: Redux: Electric Boogaloo for 10 years until everyone got bored and quit or got cleared out. Now the new stock have moved in and are on to making reddit-tier degenerate fanfiction of already bland IPs with DA:I and ME:A.

Dragon Age was their Baldur's Gate but owned by them. The thing is they fucked around with it for like seven years. It seems like they kept changing the setting of that game, because I remember there being a time where they were referencing Conan the Barbarian with its setting, but by the time they showed it that seemed to be gone.

The original versions of Dragon Age, beyond the Conan stuff, seemed like it was (at least setting wise) going to be pretty different. Originally it also didn’t have stuff like Dwarves and Elves. It was going to have stand ins for them, but it sounded like it wasn’t going to have the traditional fantasy races you’d expect from some Lord of the Rings inspired fantasy setting.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Dragon Age was their Baldur's Gate but owned by them. The thing is they fucked around with it for like seven years.

Yeah, and that's still what they said on release, but it didn't feel anything like BGII to me. I remember seeing that top screenshot somewhere long ago and honestly, you could have told me that it was a mod for NWN2 and I'd have believed you if not for the high ceilings. Whatever they intended that version of DA to be, I doubt any of those ideas survived beyond the first few pre-alpha modules. How much of it was actually even conceptualized is also a mystery.

"It's going to be our own (x)" is one of those canned PR statements that can mean practically anything as we all learned. Even though it brought back the larger party sizes and tactical combat, it still wasn't there for me. Something about the world felt too static.

 

[Roguey]

Those screenshots are in fact mock-ups made with the NWN toolset.

THIS was the IP that they chose to pass on making KotOR II for. I'd love to know who it was that thought that was a prudent financial decision.

Giving kotor 2 (and then nwn 2) to Feargus was a favor to the man who gave them their Big Break. Biodoc loyalty.

 

[Old Hans]

It was going to have stand ins for them, but it sounded like it wasn’t going to have the traditional fantasy races you’d expect from some Lord of the Rings inspired fantasy setting.

so instead of Dwarves they had Zrogs who were bearded humanoids who lived in the mountains and mined ore

 

[Nano]

So on one hand the old version of DA didn't have elves, but on the other hand the final version of DA allows you to murder entire elven tribes, sell them to slavers, and use them in blood sacrifices. I can't decide which is better.

 

[J1M]

Jade Empire was like trying to sell condoms to lesbians. They put an Asian setting RPG that used RTwP combat on Xbox.

It wasn't really RtwP in the sense that people here imagine it. It had a pause feature sure, but you never really had a reason to pause the game. All the combat forms could be hotkeyed, so you could change up without ever pausing. Jade Empire was pretty much just a straight up ARPG. Well, barely an RPG. I don't actually recall if it had stats, it barely had any itemization. Most of it was just in the form of these jewel things that buffed persuade/intimidate/bluff skills.

You're right though, the setting was far too niche, actually, a niche of a niche. Asian Wuxia that's confined purely to unarmed combat (with a few exceptions far too late in the game for them to matter). Practically no itemization, no character building. Bear in mind, the insanity went even further, THIS was the IP that they chose to pass on making KotOR II for. I'd love to know who it was that thought that was a prudent financial decision.

Someone attended a PowerPoint presentation about owning your own IP = free real estate.

Disagree about combat. It was rock-paper-scissors with a parent that flashes their hand early.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Giving kotor 2 (and then nwn 2) to Feargus was a favor to the man who gave them their Big Break. Biodoc loyalty.

Bioware only turned down Lucas Arts because they wanted to work on their own IP though. They recommended LA talk to Obsidian instead, no doubt out of a sense of camaraderie, agreed, but it wasn't as if they passed on it in order to specifically repay a favor. They simply weren't interested at the time.

"To LucasArts, it was clear they had something special on their hands, even before Bioware launched the game in Summer 2003, and they wanted to start development on a sequel as soon as possible. BioWare was eager to work on their own IP, but directed LucasArts’ attention to a new studio: Obsidian Entertainment." - https://www.eurogamer.net/fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side

I'm pretty sure I remember Avellone saying the same in a podcast he did, but the whole recording seems to have disappeared into the ether. The link to download it is in this article, but it's dead now and I can't find it anywhere on YouTube. - https://www.eurogamer.net/fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side

 

[moon knight]

This is all his fault. This is the fanbase he cultivated.