Wizardry Long Live Wizardry! (And The All-New Games By Ex-Wizardry Developers)

[Ysaye]

Besides that, I'm currently trying out Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land, which is very, very good.
I actually regret not getting it back in the day - saw it plenty of times at a store.

Are you playing this on a PS2 or via other means?

 

[RatTower]

Besides that, I'm currently trying out Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land, which is very, very good.
I actually regret not getting it back in the day - saw it plenty of times at a store.

Are you playing this on a PS2 or via other means?

Of course I'm playing all my games in their original, purchased version, on a real PlayStation™ 2, brought to you by the good people at the Sony™ Corporation!

What's that?
Emulgation?

Why I know nothing about these things!

Spoiler

 

[Dorarnae]

dimguil is part of the wizardry gaiden series. I only played dimguil and prisoners of the battle but they're good.

 

[Rance]

This isn't some kind of a dick girl trap in a video game format? You know, one that calls herself "Wizardry" but nametag on his cumstained shirt stills says "Bob".

 

[aweigh]

dimguil is part of the wizardry gaiden series. I only played dimguil and prisoners of the battle but they're good.

check out wizardry gaiden 4 on snes... very good wizardry game.

 

[LeStryfe79]

I've recently been playing Wizardry 1-2-3 Story of Llylgamyn on a SNES emulator. It's actually quite a strange game. I'm playing the unpatched Japanese version, yet the options allow you to change 99% of the text to English. There are 4 separate language switches for characters, monsters, items, and messages. Why this was an option is completely beyond me. Also this came out in 1999, which was well past what I assumed was the expiration date of the system.

For some reason the scenarios are out of order with the 2nd and 3rd entries being switched around. This doesn't really matter though because of the game's best feature. You can freely move you characters back and forth between the dungeons as if it were one huge Wizardry! I'm just getting started but I'm hoping this will allow for some funnny shenanigans.

Anyways, a version of this came out for Playstation but I don't trust it. The looks and sounds of this one are just about perfect and retains the grid movement. Well, wish me luck. Gonna spend the next few days rolling up a bunch of lords and ninjas....

 

[LeStryfe79]

Okay, when you bring a character in from another game, your stats are rerolled, you lose your items, but keep your gold. You can choose a new alignment available to your class. So you can change a neutral samurai to a good samurai. This only works if you move a character in to your current scenario, not out. Anyway, I haven't figured out everything yet, but damn if itsn't bizarre as hell.

Also, super easy to roll a ninja. I got 4 in 15 minutes, but I'm pretty good at it, although I accidentally skipped a 62 bonus. Not sure how that is possible. I'm pissed about that.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Wtf, you can only change character's alignment when moving backwards in scenarios!

 

[newtmonkey]

PSX version is great, no need to feel suspicious about it
It's grid-based like the SFC version, and you can select either (shitty) polygon dungeons or switch to gridlines.

Compared with the SFC version, it's a much closer port of the PC games (probably 99% accurate; the only difference I noted is no stat drop bug in the PSX version, and it's a lot easier to roll high bonus points in the PSX version). However, the SFC version has much better artwork.

 

[newtmonkey]

Busin ~Wizardry Alternative~ (aka Wizardry: Tales of the Forsaken Land)
Whereas Elminage is like an alternate Wizardry VI in which the Wizardry V systems were expanded upon, and Grimoire is like an alternate Wizardry VIII that took Wizardry VII and did the same, I think you could see Busin as an alternate Wizardry VI in a timeline where Bradley never showed up and instead SirTech just sold the series outright to a Japanese company.

~Positives~
It's got some truly excellent dungeon design, very nice enemy graphics, and some nice twists on the Wizardry V formula. It's got random equipment drops that seem to be based on floor rather than enemy, but also materials that drop from particular enemy types, which you use to craft stones to learn and improve spells. I generally hate materials and crafting, but I like this system. It helps to keep low level spells relevant later on, and it's always exciting to come back with new materials and finally mix up a brand new spell.

The class change system is strange. It's classic Wizardry at its core, but you basically have no reason not to upgrade everyone to the advanced classes as you just lose a single level of experience for doing so. It makes the core classes pretty useless in my opinion.

The party actions are cool. It adds a nice wrinkle to the front/rear ranks system, as some tactics requires certain positioning (i.e. one character directly behind another) to work. These are extremely powerful, and I went from struggling to kicking ass once I started using them.

~Negatives~
Everything is slow. Moving is slow even when dashing, combat is slow, text is slow, and like many Japanese games since the PSX days, it's way too wordy for its own good. Shortcuts also take way too long to unlock.

The story/dialog is bizarre. The overall theme is completely childish ("explore the dungeon with the power of FRIENDSHIP"), the dialog and characters are god awful, but the "narration" is written extremely well and is evocative.

Finally, there's not much enemy variety. I guess that's the price you pay for having these extremely detailed and animated models, but it's annoying to fight the same 3-4 enemies over and over for an entire floor.

 

[d1r]

I am still not sure which tragedy is worse.

That there never was a Wizardry 9 after the excellent 8, or that after 17 years, we still have no translation for the sequel to Forsaken Lands named "Busin 0 Wizardry Alternate Neo", which is a 224% improvement over its predecessor.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I am still not sure which tragedy is worse.

That there never was a Wizardry 9 after the excellent 8, or that after 17 years, we still have no translation for the sequel to Forsaken Lands named "Busin 0 Wizardry Alternate Neo", which is a 224% improvement over its predecessor.

MrRichard999

 

[Ivan]

Looking to start my first Wizardry game. I'm not so young anymore so I can't sink 10+hours anymore on any given weekday. Should I skip to #8 as I hear that is the best one? Are there any fan mods/patches I would need to get it running well today?

 

[Deflowerer]

Looking to start my first Wizardry game. I'm not so young anymore so I can't sink 10+hours anymore on any given weekday. Should I skip to #8 as I hear that is the best one? Are there any fan mods/patches I would need to get it running well today?

Dunno, you can easily start with the first trilogy. They are very playable and compact experiences up to this day, no filler.

 

[Ysaye]

Looking to start my first Wizardry game. I'm not so young anymore so I can't sink 10+hours anymore on any given weekday. Should I skip to #8 as I hear that is the best one? Are there any fan mods/patches I would need to get it running well today?

• Like Deflowerer, I would probably start with the first Wizardry, particularly if you don't have time (or play the first three which are kind of linked). The first game sets up particular traditions in the game that are retained and expanded upon as you progress and is IMO still fun. Play it using SNES / emulation, or via the Wandroid app.
• After that try Wizardry 4, which is basically "Wizardry Inverse". This is arguably the hardest of the lot. See above for how to play.
• After that Wizardry 6 and 7. (DW Bradley step movement games). Available on GOG and Steam.
• Then Wizardry 8 and then Wizards and Warriors. (DW Bradley continuous movement games) available Steam and GOG (W&W)
• Then Elminage Gothic (Japanese Wizardry) Steam
• (Then probably some Wizardry Empire games....) PS2 / Emulation
• Then Wizardry Tales of the Foresaken Land...... PS2 / Emulatioon
• Then Dark Spire (DS / Emulation)
• Then Paper Sorcerer (GOG or Steam)

Or ask Aweigh, he has played a lot more than I think anyone else here.

 

[aweigh]

First Wizardry game? Good choices are Wizardry 1 on SNES, or Wizardry 5 on PS1. Or both.

Wizardry Empire 2 on PC with the English patch, and Wizardry Gaiden 4 on SNES are great for after you play Wizardry 5. You can get the Wizardry Empire 2 ISO download off abandon ware websites, and the english patch is located in the romhacking.net website. The Wizardry Gaiden 4 SNES ROM can be found on most any emulation site, but you can get a pre-patched ROM by searching cdromance..

Ysaye's recommendations are great too, can't go wrong with Elminage, The Dark Spire, or Paper Sorcerer. Great recommendations. Wizardry 8 doesn't count as a real Wizardry game as it plays completely differently, but it is a good game on its own.

I would add to those Stranger of Sword City for a further non-Wizardry-titled Wizardry-like.

EDIT: Wiz 3 on SNES is cool too as a first choice. Was my personal first Wizardry-titled Wizardry game that I finished beginning to end.

 

[d1r]

Does anyone know if the old Wizardry games had enemies that could permanently reduce your health points without level drain?

Am asking because I still am trying to figure out why my main tank in Busin 0 (Wizardry: Forsaken Lands 2) permanetnly lost half of his health points. He didn't get level drained, nor did he receive any other status effects. I know that Wizardry games can be a real pain in the ass when it comes to maiming your characters with permadeath or other nasty status effects, but permanent hp loss at that scale would be a little bit too much. Hopefully this is just a rare bug.

 

[newtmonkey]

Diablo1_reborn
I've played and finished Wiz 1-3 and 5 (DOS) with the same party through all games, and never had any character with permanent HP loss. As you know, the Busin series changes a lot of things from the Wiz formula, so maybe there's some weird status effect that isn't clear? Or possibly even a story-related thing?

 

[Lukipaluki]

Crossposting from the Gothic thread since no one comes around there anymore:

Hi aweigh do you still have the most recent iterations of your rebalancing and difficulty mods for E:G? The Filedrop and DropBox links are dead. Would you be able to upload the files somewhere, please?

Also, I am really interested in playing the ported 3DSedits+Translation on PC, so if you have that as well, I would really appreciate it!

 

[aweigh]

Crossposting from the Gothic thread since no one comes around there anymore:

no man, sorry, i don't. Editing the items and making sweeping balance changes is quite easy, tho, in the Elminage Gothic english Wiki website, in their Mods section, you can download the file extractor and extract all of the .csv files from the game like the ITEMS.csv, MONSTERS.csv, SPELLS.csv, char tables, advancement tables, etc. Here: https://elminage-gothic.fandom.com/wiki/Game_Mods

Use the unpacker tool from there on the corresponding file from the Elminage: Gothic install, and then just load those up in a spreadsheet viewer (last time I used Libre office) and edit the .csv files, then when you're done place the .csv files in the game's root directory, and it will load them instead of the default ones.

The majority of the "mods" i did were just rebalancing the stats for the items in the game, i.e. the weapons, armor, etc, mostly to make weak weapons stronger like the Books and the Charms, and to give specific weapons different ranges which I copied over from the changes they did to the weapons in the 3DS remix version.

I also made some of the direct damage spells stronger, and I changed the Enterook Mista spell's affinity to Thunder/Electricity so that it became boosted by anything that boosted thunder/electricity, as it is in Elminage: Original.

(For example in the 3ds edition they made a fair few weapons L-range that didn't use to be, and they also made some staves M-ranged as well; generally speaking they made the game much easier in the 3ds version as they also lowered the stats for all enemies as well as many other changes).

EDIT: The one mod where I really did make a lot of changes that took time was where I edited by hand around half of the enemies in the game to give them equipment that you could steal, mostly going by the enemy equipment changes from the 3ds version.

That's the only file that was a legitimate loss, as it took me a while to do. As for what happened i had them all on dropbox and one day they just weren't there anymore for some reason.

I got the 3ds .csv files by using combination of two tools: BMS script for extracting files from Elminage Original on PSP that also worked on the 3ds version of gothic (can be gotten here: https://aluigi.altervista.org/quickbms.htm), and also opening the 3ds ROM in a Hex Editor and finding the relevant file data, i.e. finding where the MONSTER1.csv file began in the ROM by doing control + F searches and the like, then copying it from the hex editor and overwriting the .csv file from the PC version, extracted using the unpacker tool from the wiki website, with the pasted data values from the 3ds rom text. Then taking the over-written .csv file I now had and pasting its contents directly back into the 3ds ROM.

If you're only interested in changing the values for items and enemies and spells to suit your own tastes, you only need the unpacker tool from the english-language E: Gothic wiki website.

 

[Lukipaluki]

Thanks aweigh. Pity about the files though. I haven't played Gothic in such a long time and wanted to mix things up and do a playthrough with the 3DS files (I know I can emulate it, but Elminage on PC looks really slick and has the added benefit of being in English, not that contrariwise would make it unplayable for me) and then do another play through with buffed stats and whatnot.

 

[aweigh]

If it makes you feel better the majority of the changes done in the 3DS version are for the worse, they ruin the game's impeccable balance and makes it too easy. The changes they made to the map layouts are also for the worse as well, simplifying the dungeon layouts.

The good stuff that they did add are some of the new weapons, (most are too OP and break the balance), and the new party member NPCs that you can recruit; one of them being Giant race which is also completely broken as they can reach something like 30 Strength, which if you understand how Elminage formulas work means it is completely retardedly broken in terms of physical damage output.

An easy example, they added a Tier 2 drop (i.e. a pretty common drop) in the basement 1 floor of the Tree Dungeon that is a new sword called the Leaf Blade that has 4 attacks.

FOUR. ATTACKS. By that point in the game the only weapon the party has access to that has more than 1 attack is the spear 'Killer' which you can only get by doing the tedious hide-and-seek Leprechaun quest in the 2nd dungeon. In the 3DS version the party can outfit itself with Leaf Blades and completely roflstomp the next two dungeons.

The best change they made was changing most monster weapons into usable equipment that the party can steal, but alas it comes hand-in-hand with the major cutbacks on enemy stats as well. Yes, they did add some cool things (more stealable enemy equipment, new items that range in power and usefulness, changed stats and properties of old items, added recruitable NPCs of which 2 of them are new unique races, and 1 of those races can't be gotten otherwise); but unfortunately most of the changes end up overpowering the party to too extreme a degree.

The best and most impressive aspect of Elminage: Gothic, in hindsight, after much examination, is that it has what I consider to be one of the best power curves I've ever seen in any RPG, where the player really feels like they are growing along with the party as they beat dungeons and begin to understand the mechanics more, and this is ultimately destroyed in the 3DS version.

TLDR: The 3DS verison is a nice curiosity, but because it has so many overpowered additions it ends up making the game less enjoyable, and these are additions that are not "optional", such as most enemies being weaker.

The PC version is the definitive Elminage: Gothic experience.

EDIT: To put things into perspective, I found the 3DS version of E: Gothic to be easier than Elminage: Original.

 

[Dorarnae]

I dunno, I didn't feel ''overpowered'' in the 3ds version. Sure it's easier because you no longer have group encounter with 4 star gazer for exemple, which in my opinion was a bit ridiculous. the 28% behead monster in the beginning...I think some change to balancing was alright...they added few new monster too, weapon graphic which I like, changed the battle music which is a big + (though the psp version you could change the whole soundtrack but the 3ds battle song is good). being able to change your ability by spending some $ too, instead of creating a new character...
the change for the dungeon map are only for the first few map. you can re-fight every boss/floor master in one of the post game dungeon.....I personally think the 3ds version is a better game overall.

and 3ds gothic easier than elminage original? no way. elminage original is the easiest game in the series.

 

[Dorarnae]

looks like exp inc. is finally working on a new dungeon crawler. we don't see much, but just knowing they're doing something is good.

at 53:21

 

[matogl0396]

I have been lurking on a lot of the dungeoncrawler stuff on this forum for a long time. I suspect the regulars here will appreciate my collection...

First, Class of Heroes. Fun fact is Class of Heroes 2 NA version was a very limited run, and this is even the unique box art for backers of the failed Kickstarter which was only a small portion of said run (I believe there are only ~ 500 copies total) -- mine is sealed and even has the original certificate of authenticity with matching holographic ID (pictured), this is the rarest game in my collection.