Let's Play VtM: Night Empire

[oscar]

A. Doesn't seem a good time to rock the boat and Anthony has been neglecting his Kine contacts.

 

[Storyfag]

I support the notion to go with A, even though B is *very* tempting too! It'd be best if we could somehow combine the two...

 

[Computer Gamer Refugee]

I find it very interesting that Vogel played stupid, and even more importantly passive, but more on that later.

As the entrance speech proved, the envoy is not here to grease squeaky wheels, or deliver kudos for excellent performance; he is here to hammer any nails that are still sticking out. This means that if we don’t keep our head down, we stand a good chance of getting hammered. Even our successes are potentially an issue because I feel this guy is looking less for success then a return to the status quo.

Going against the Sabbat I feel is a bad idea. No matter how much initiative it is, or how successful it will be, in the short run (6 months) it will mean war in the streets. This will make us notable and successful by making a ruckus. Not a good idea in the current climate.

This brings up a second point. At the moment the only physical force we can bring to the table is the ghoul squad. For a while I thought it might be a good thing to use it to strike (in secret) a Sabbat nest. That would give the squad some actual combat experience which would simultaneously settle them down and give them a much needed blooding so they don’t freeze in higher stakes missions. Although there are several upsides from a tactical point of view, Anthony is playing a strategic game and the strategic risks don’t outweigh the benefits. First, without having a good target, we won’t do any real damage to the Sabbat and even if we keep things totally secret, they will know that something out there, and will inevitably get some clues. Second, it risks the Camarilla finding out about them; which might blunt their effectiveness or even result in them being taken from us. Lastly, and this is the point that convinced me it was a bad idea, I don’t want to have to face the envoy when he asks, “And why do you think training and equipping a group of mortals to kill kindred was a good idea?”

I think the best option is choice A) Strengthen our ties to the kine. Unlike the other options, this brings stability since it helps us to be able to smooth over masquerade violations instead of potentially causing them by open fighting. It also strengthens our own powerbase and helps us potentially get a lead on the Giovanni. Lastly it will help us demonstrate our power to keep the kine in line the envoy. That is proper Ventrue monocle and will prove a lynchpin for the crazy grandiose shit I am planning.


_______________________________________________________________________________________

My opinion of Vogel’s intelligence just went up two steps. It is one thing to say “I’ll be the puppet Gangrel prince while a Ventrue holds the leash”, but to demonstrate that to the envoy in the space of two sentences is pure fucking brilliance. Sadly, it does mean that if we want to back Vogel, we will actually have to back him since he won’t be able to do much heavy lifting with the other kindred. This a straight up proper manipulation of Anthony since it will greatly limit our ability to play both sides, and I give him proper respect for doing it.

________________________________________________________________________________________



Ok, on to crazy scheming. I propose that our plan for the envoy be that he makes Vogel prince with us seneschal. How can we make that happen since Anthony and Vogel are, to quote a wise poster, “a nobody backed by a pariah”? It is still a long shot, but Anthony can sell it as follows:
· Vogel can return the Gangrel (and some anarchs?) to the fold
· This will give the Camarilla the muscle it needs to drive out the Sabbat
· While Anthony keeps the kine in line
· Of course Mr. Envoy, we would need your strong backing to convince the other kindred
· This would put us in their debt and keep us dependent on Venice to stay in power*

Of course this plan has almost as many moving parts as the Reichstag plan, so I look forward to getting my comeuppance for pissing on that one.

*actual leverage may vary

 

[Running Fox]

Kine contacts are borderline worthless to kindred. A retarded 13 gen thinblood could dominate and bloodbond the power elite of a country in a month if unopposed by his peers...
The Gangrel joining the Cam again, even in part, is as ridiculous as a 13 gen baron of London. Among Gangrel authority is decided on a pure physical power basis. Maybe Vogler is a clan methuselah...

 

[Esquilax]

I think the best option is choice A) Strengthen our ties to the kine. Unlike the other options, this brings stability since it helps us to be able to smooth over masquerade violations instead of potentially causing them by open fighting. It also strengthens our own powerbase and helps us potentially get a lead on the Giovanni. Lastly it will help us demonstrate our power to keep the kine in line the envoy. That is proper Ventrue monocle and will prove a lynchpin for the crazy grandiose shit I am planning.

Stop holding out on us!

My opinion of Vogel’s intelligence just went up two steps. It is one thing to say “I’ll be the puppet Gangrel prince while a Ventrue holds the leash”, but to demonstrate that to the envoy in the space of two sentences is pure fucking brilliance. Sadly, it does mean that if we want to back Vogel, we will actually have to back him since he won’t be able to do much heavy lifting with the other kindred. This a straight up proper manipulation of Anthony since it will greatly limit our ability to play both sides, and I give him proper respect for doing it.

This.

I disagree that he won't do any heavy lifting - Vogler knows that he's a longshot and realizes that Tony is his best bet at becoming Prince, so I think he'll help us with whatever resources he has at his disposal. If we can ensure that he's very popular in the city (i.e. a force for stability), but passive and willing to let the Ventrue take the reins, the Inner Circle will love him. Maintaining de facto control over London while at the same time integrating the Gangrel back into the Camarilla and discrediting the Anarchs is a total win-win for them.

I think he can help us out - perhaps he can send for a Kindred or two from Swansea to come by and help us with whatever we need in the campaign - preferably somebody good at digging up secrets. We also need to discuss the matter of Turcov: he is the most powerful Baron in London, and if we manage to disgrace him, it'll really fuck up his candidates chances and take some of the heat away from us.

Ok, on to crazy scheming. I propose that our plan for the envoy be that he makes Vogel prince with us seneschal. How can we make that happen since Anthony and Vogel are, to quote a wise poster, “a nobody backed by a pariah”? It is still a long shot, but Anthony can sell it as follows:
· Vogel can return the Gangrel (and some anarchs?) to the fold
· This will give the Camarilla the muscle it needs to drive out the Sabbat
· While Anthony keeps the kine in line
· Of course Mr. Envoy, we would need your strong backing to convince the other kindred
· This would put us in their debt and keep us dependent on Venice to stay in power*

Like I said last page, we have to work to legitimise Vogler as a candidate. Our strategy should work like this:

1. We let the Sabbat run amok. This part is very important - we shouldn't lift a finger at the moment*. If the Camarilla is in a losing battle with the Sabbat, they'll be desperate for solutions on how to get rid of the threat. In a desperate situation like this, Vogler will be seen as the guy who can bring a Clan of fierce warriors (and possibly some Anarchs) back into the fold and provide some much-needed manpower to crush the Sabbat. Given Iacomo's presence in London and the distracted Camarilla leadership, I think that this will get much worse before it gets better.
2. Get some Barons on our side. Frank Biggs is good, but Eda Sly would be even better - she is an old Ventrue who can give our candidate a sense of respectability. Better yet, she also hates Turcov and would be eager for the chance to get back at him. If we can get some dirt on Turcov, I'm sure she'll be willing to throw some support in favour of Vogler. That's still a big "if", however.

Mandrake is still a problem. If we are spotted while meeting the bankers, it could be used as ammunition against us later on. That is my biggest concern with A. To be honest, I am on the brink of flopping to E) because of it.

* I think I should mention: if we're going to let the Sabbat go unchecked, now would be the time to fortify Witanhurst with a few traps. They still remember what we did to Angelos, and now that they're making assaults across the river, it's only a matter of time before they strike at us.

Oh, and I propose that we (P) Costello to ask when the Pellmell Queen will be arriving, any sort of info about her, etc.

 

[ironyuri]

Orgasm-Bro, strengthening our kine contacts at the moment is not about showing off to the Envoy, it's just about increasing Sommers' power-base. The Envoy, however, seems to be a straight-talker, and I doubt he'll look down on Sommers' ability to use modern kine political systems effectively from the Shadows. Dominating and bloodbonding entire governments, boards of directors or monarchies is a recipe for trouble, I'm sure a politick kindred can respect that Sommers has worked in the shadows and that, apart from Humphrey knowing about some dark, seedy underworld, none of Sommers kine aides know anything of his world, Sommers' true nature, or the real nature of the masquerade.

On that point, it struck me that in the long-term, it will be suspiscious if Sommers is outliving all of his banking colleagues, but remaining as a secret partner. It does give us the opportunity, however, to groom ghouls in high places. Not leadership roles, but positions of influence.

As for bringing the gangrel back in, I doubt Vogler would be a 'leader' of Gangrel. However, as Prince he could select the Primogen put forward by the clan. Re-integration of the gangrel also does not mean total assimilation. The clan would remain, by rights, mostly autonomous, but at the very least, Vogler might be able to convince them that they're better off having some power to influence Camarilla decision making, so that the Camarilla can do for them in return for their loyalty (preserving Masquerade, securing gangrel holdings against Sabbat incursions, providing them with 'safe' wilderness areas to roam [Sommers government contacts could make sure no questions are asked when gangrel take up residence in National Trust parks, and so on]).

We have six months until the election of Prince. To survive, we need to:

> Impress upon the Envoy that Sommers is *not* some upstart 13th gen getting above his station, but a Camarilla steadfast who will do what needs to be done for clan stability - this does *not* mean, however, that Sommers won't be a scheming, manipulative, politicking Ventrue. The Envoy expects schemes and wheeling-dealings, Sommers just has to disguise his schemes better than his rivals, and also make sure his schemes don't damage wider Camarilla power. When we took out Angelos, it did great things for the Camarilla in terms of removing a dangerous rival.... however, in the long-run, our campaign brought down a Prince and led to an even more aggressive Sabbat resurgence on the South Bank.
> Play a double game: the public campaign for Vogler's princely election and the back-room game. We can show Vogler off as much as we want to everyone else, but we need to be making backroom deals with fellow Barons and we need to make sure they will keep their word.
> Keep our heads down. Heads will roll, make sure Sommers' head is not sticking up

I like A because we can't string Humphrey along for too much longer, and we have nothing to take to Biggs. He wants to be taken seriously by Kine union leaders, he needs someone like Tony. He has problems with the Giovanni, he needs someone with banking connections.


If we haven't called Costello yet, we could always (P) Costello, ask her for whatever dirt she can dig up on the London Giovanni and any connections Tarquin has to them. I'm only 50% on that though, so it'll depend on what others think.


Edit-Ololol looks like Esquilax and I were writing at the same time.

I agree that we should let the Sabbat run amok for now. We gain nothing by fighting them, and Godrick might be the one to be made an example of by the Envoy if he lets his territory fall into disrepair. It's his responsibility to take care of the South Bank, not Sommers'. If things become dire and the Camarilla has to band together, that's when we come in and offer everything we can (except Wistman, unless there's a good reason).

 

[Esquilax]

Let's bring Cripps! Not to follow Mandrake, but rather to Obfuscate himself to look like Sommers and distract our stalker for the night. He'll be off following our phlegm-snorting doppleganger, while we'll be wining and dining some powerful people and making connections.

 

[ironyuri]

Posting simultaneously makes me feel kind of dirty, Esquilax. Like we'd been touching each other. And then we came together. Bro.

 

[Esquilax]

Don't worry bro, it's not gay as long as you don't maintain eye contact. As far as your points:

I like A because we can't string Humphrey along for too much longer, and we have nothing to take to Biggs. He wants to be taken seriously by Kine union leaders, he needs someone like Tony. He has problems with the Giovanni, he needs someone with banking connections.

Absolutely.

At the same time, I really want to strike at Turcov before he starts making more aggressive moves on us. He showed a moment of weakness, and if we can exploit that by getting some dirt on him, it would be glorious. But how would we gain leverage over the guy? Eddie is too obvious of a mole and Turcov would see him coming a mile away. I say we talk to Vogler about this - perhaps he can hook us up with a Kindred (i.e. a Malk or Nossie) who might figure out what he's up to. Eda Sly and Digby Deeds are two other people that could potentially help us out. I'm not sure how we'd approach this. Thoughts?

If we haven't called Costello yet, we could always (P) Costello, ask her for whatever dirt she can dig up on the London Giovanni and any connections Tarquin has to them. I'm only 50% on that though, so it'll depend on what others think.

Hmm, with Humphrey's banking connections, I feel like we could dig up info on any London Giovanni ourselves relatively quickly. We have to be smart about what kind of info we ask of Costello.

EDIT: On an unrelated note.

“A massacre in France,” you say, shortly. “A few years after I was embraced. I remember.”
“Yes, you were around for that war, weren’t you?” Vogler says, coolly. “Strange that we should have been on opposite sides, in a roundabout sort of way, but then I suppose we were both very different people, back then. I was there to watch, however, not to take part. Unfortunately, fires were lit, and...well, things got a little out of hand. A considerable number of Kine died. I ran, into the mountains.”

I think he's lying about this. I do believe that he has a friend who is an Archon - the fact that Iacomo mentioned that he was asked for an audience "in a roundabout way" seems to indicate this. But I think there's more to this particular story than Vogler is willing to let on.

 

[laclongquan]

Striking Turcov or any barons is a bad idea. Lots and I mean lots of other barons are watching us carefully just for some dirt they can take to the Envoy to get us killed and themselves off the hook. Stay away from all of them unless necessary.

To kill Turcov, or lower his strength considerably, we will have to wait for his move and his mistake. Watch and see, basically.

We could send Vogler to our Heath's gangrels and as well as other packs, of course. Strengthen Camarilla is the right idea, and a Prince should do that. And he goes alone may work better than with us, due to Gangrel's distrust of Ventrue.

As for Biggs, he has Kine contacts which we may want, and he's a baron we can manipulate, from what we read. On his side, he will see that our visiting is a good sign of Ventrue respect, and we may have something he need, considering he's in a rough neighbourhood.

Please go BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB, for actions and conspiracies.

 

[Excidium]

A). I can't believe you still want to scheme against the other barons or try to pull some smart shit when you were personally advised by an archon not to do so.

It's worse than the people voting to prance around werewolf country in storyfag's LP.

 

[Gondolin]

Striking Turcov or any barons is a bad idea. Lots and I mean lots of other barons are watching us carefully just for some dirt they can take to the Envoy to get us killed and themselves off the hook. Stay away from all of them unless necessary.

We don't strike at Turcov. We get the dirt on him and pass it on to the Envoy. Or to the next Prince.

 

[Smashing Axe]

Voting A, phone harpy to investigate Mandrake

 

[Esquilax]

Fuck, my fault. I said "strike at Turcov" when I should have said "find out why the mention of the Pellmell Queen made him panic". Turcov is the most powerful Baron in London, and finding out any potential dirt on such an individual gives us a great degree of leverage that we can use to push our candidate forward. I am not saying that it should be our focus, (making ourselves useful to the Camarilla is still #1 priority, as the Archon said) but we should at the very least try to make some effort to determine what he's up to, if for no other reason than to protect ourselves.

Remember, we are an unpopular Baron and a lot of people want to see us gone - those people are still going to want to want to see us gone if they can get away with it, regardless of whether an Archon warned them against it or not. To think otherwise is to be blind.

EDIT: Smashing Axe: My good bro, we already have Humphrey on Mandrake. Shit, I really hope that picking A doesn't result in getting caught.

 

[laclongquan]

Which is why you should go B, chap.

 

[Sergiu64]

A here as well.

 

[Esquilax]

Which is why you should go B, chap.

If we're going to ally ourselves with Frank Biggs, we need to have something to offer in the first place, because right now we don't have much negotiating leverage. If we have powerful banking connections at our disposal, we could sell him on an alliance based on the fact that (1) our financial and political ties would make it remarkably easy for him to establish himself among Kine union leaders, and (2) having an influential ghoul/contact who is in charge of a bank means that we can begin keeping tabs on the Giovanni next door to him. With that sort of bargaining power, we could also likely get him to support Vogler - having a Primogen on our side would be a great first step for our campaign. Seeing him right now would be pointless as we don't have those connections at our disposal.

However, while we're out strengthening ourselves and making alliances, we need to keep our eyes open for any attempts by our rivals to throw us under the bus. Which is why I suggested (P) Costello for information on the Pellmell Queen and her relationship with Turcov. We have to be careful how we ask her, however; Turcov has a lot of Toreador friends and I'd rather not have anything we ask her getting back to him.

Likewise, the Sabbat are back and stronger than ever. While we won't be going after them for the time being, we should start thinking about fortifying Witanhurst soon. They've already started making raids across the river, and I think it's only a matter of time before they get bold enough to strike at us in revenge for the Angelos hit. Pulling back and letting the Sabbat come to us will give us one critical advantage; it means that their leaders will no longer be in hiding. They'll feel safer and more bold, so it's more likely that they'll be out in the open, where it'll be easier to gather intel on them. Once they've made themselves known, it'll be much easier to find their havens and launch a surprise attack with Operation Wistman.

 

[Random Word]

Things went quite well for Sommers the last time he got into bed with three letter service branches - namely the SAS and SBS - why not cultivate a relationship with perhaps the most useful - to Sommers, at least - three letter service of them all, the SIS? They won't be the Nosferatu, but they'll be loyal, have access to a great deal of information financial and otherwise, be supremely qualified to identify Mandrake, and if one were looking to choose a Childe, one could certainly do worse than an SIS trained intelligence analyst or wetwork operative. Not that I'm suggesting now is the ideal time to become a sire. I'm sure Sommers could benefit from having access to the city's CCTV network and local telecommunications traffic again. As an added plus, forming strong connections in the SIS, unlike forming a vampire hunting hitsquad, suports stability and won't get him killed.
A seems like an ideal time to make it happen.

 

[Gondolin]

This is quite a good idea.

 

[ironyuri]

I like Random Word's approach, there. Just have to keep in mind that access to CCTV networks won't protect us against Lasombra, if the Sabbat sends any against us. Got to have contingency plans.

As for the banking connections, not to put ideas in your head, grotsnik-bro, but if Sommers is getting onto the board of a bank, I'd suggest Coutts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coutts

They do the banking for the Queen/Royal Family... and Lily Allen (the queen of my heart).

I'll swing to Esquilax phonecall, by the by- (P)hone Costello, ask her what she's heard about the Pell-Mell queen.

 

[Esquilax]

As an added plus, forming strong connections in the SIS, unlike forming a vampire hunting hitsquad, suports stability and won't get him killed.

Great post, and this raises another important point. Sommers' squad seems to have become a white elephant - it's an extremely valuable resource that we have no way of using since it'll bring the wrath of the Archon and the other Barons on us ("You made a team of soldiers with state-of-the-art weapons who know our weaknesses? Are you out of your fucking mind?") . And because we need Eddie keeping an eye on them, we can't have him over in Whitehall doing other things we might need of him. Worse yet, this team leaves us in a vulnerable position should any other Barons snooping around find out about them. Seriously, if someone like Turcov finds out, it will fucking ruin us.

So what are we going to do about it? I see a few options, but hopefully someone else can think of a better solution:

1. We get Vogler to say that the squad is his and that one of his people in Swansea trained them. Of course, I doubt anybody will believe us if they do any serious digging around, but it'll be enough to convince the Archon that we have a pet Gangrel firmly under our leash. If we win him over, we can dismiss any claims to the contrary as bullshit.
2. We come clean to the Archon. Worst case scenario to consider if somebody is blackmailing us.
3. If Earl Godrick's domain is overrun with the Sabbat and he desperately needs a win to keep his domain, let him have them in exchange for supporting Vogler. Problem is that he could come right back and betray us by outing our squad once we meet up at Knightsbridge.
4. Send them on a suicide mission. If we end up finding the haven of an important Sabbat leader, we can send them to attack it. If they make it back, great, if not... well, we've rid ourselves of a liability.

 

[laclongquan]

Which is why you should go B, chap.

If we're going to ally ourselves with Frank Biggs, we need to have something to offer in the first place, because right now we don't have much negotiating leverage. If we have powerful banking connections at our disposal, we could sell him on an alliance based on the fact that (1) our financial and political ties would make it remarkably easy for him to establish himself among Kine union leaders, and (2) having an influential ghoul/contact who is in charge of a bank means that we can begin keeping tabs on the Giovanni next door to him. With that sort of bargaining power, we could also likely get him to support Vogler - having a Primogen on our side would be a great first step for our campaign. Seeing him right now would be pointless as we don't have those connections at our disposal.

Chap, chap! We got a ready made hitsquad with one fighting vamp which is Edgar. I dont say we use them, but use THEIR presence as a bait to entice Biggs into our snare. Especially since he fancies himself as a Ventrue-wannabe, this kind of verbal action is something he wont shy away yet it's our strongest point. I cant think of a better opponent for Anthony, or a better opportunity.

However, while we're out strengthening ourselves and making alliances, we need to keep our eyes open for any attempts by our rivals to throw us under the bus. Which is why I suggested (P) Costello for information on the Pellmell Queen and her relationship with Turcov. We have to be careful how we ask her, however; Turcov has a lot of Toreador friends and I'd rather not have anything we ask her getting back to him.

Agree on (P) Costello for information on the Pellmell Queen and her relationship with Turcov. This kind of gossip is right up her alley, so it's a good return for a phonecall. And even if it's back to Turcov about us asking, well, it's not as if he hadnt changed his expression in front of EVERYBODY in that meeting. No no, I dont fear too much about this call.

Likewise, the Sabbat are back and stronger than ever. While we won't be going after them for the time being, we should start thinking about fortifying Witanhurst soon. They've already started making raids across the river, and I think it's only a matter of time before they get bold enough to strike at us in revenge for the Angelos hit. Pulling back and letting the Sabbat come to us will give us one critical advantage; it means that their leaders will no longer be in hiding. They'll feel safer and more bold, so it's more likely that they'll be out in the open, where it'll be easier to gather intel on them. Once they've made themselves known, it'll be much easier to find their havens and launch a surprise attack with Operation Wistman.

Yo~ I dont want to rain on your parade, since I like the overall direction of that, but the last time a leader of Sabbat stick his neck out, he and his bodyguards of several packs got decimated in an ambush, blown to kingdom come, and harried down to river. I like the idea of counterattack, you understand?, but I wouldnt bet on they stick their neck out this time. They will attack by the book this time, brute force to overcome Cami defense. No hope of fancy footwork to trap Sabbat this round, damnit! Also, same deal with ambushing Dubrik. He know we are the architect of that war-changing ambush, he will be especially leery of us trying that shit with him. or Camarilla trying that with him.

Commentary as I see fit.

 

[laclongquan]

And if there's anyone who still keep the latest map of influence zone, do upload here or the first page for everyone. I cant remember Biggs is south of river or not, because if he is, B is one stone for three birds, not just two.

 

[Storyfag]

Let me remind you gents that we have Team Wistman ghouled. They are utterly loyal and any Kindred will understand that perfectly. The only danger they pose is the one we order them to pose. And any Kindred will understand that perfectly, too. We have to be careful about using them, because someone like, say, Turcov, might arrange to get them killed out of spite. But if anyone learns we have them? Big deal! Everyone has ghouls, and I bet at least some of them form some sort of a paramilitary.

What we could do to make Team Wistman safer is move them to Witanhurst. This would make arranging a hit on them much harder - after all attacking the home of a Baron is not the same thing as attacking some out-of-the-way unusued military base. Hell, we could even flaunt them in front of visitors (such as we get these nights...), flexing some muscle in this indirect manner. But this pales in comparison to the main boni of such an arrangement: direct control over the team, freeing up Eddie to work for us, and increased security (not that I have anything against Mr. Cripps). Since we're considering converting the mithraeum into a fortress, why not add a shooting range? The team can bunk in the many rooms of Witanhurst, so no need for a purpose-built barracks.

Splendid idea about the SIS. I fully support it. First things first, though. Bankers. Then orders to relocate Team Wistman. Then Biggs.

To that order, A and (P)hone Costello for gossip on the Turcov-Pellmell Queen relationship.

 

[Smashing Axe]

Yeah, change my phone call to cover what Storyfag just mentioned. Sounds good.