Let's learn about fighting games and get murdered together.

[Lagole Gon]

So, why aren't you playing Waku Waku 7 yet?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I don't like 2D figthing games all that much, that's why...

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

If I had access to the "Heresy" tag I would use it right now.

Somebody else do it for me.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

3D figthers have a much higher focus on positioning and ground movement, this makes the spacing/dodging game more expressive/efficient which results in those amazing whiff punishes that make high level matches so intense to both watch and play.
You could say that all this comes at the cost of the air game complexity 2D fighters have, but honestly that's also a plus for me as I don't like juggling in figthing games - except for Melee I guess...

Plus 2D figthers IMO go overboard when it comes to combo inputs - draw a dick and balls with your analog stick while doing the merengue beat with 3 different buttons. That's too much autism for me.
Projectile attacks are also not as common in 3D figthers, counter picking is not that viable because they are not as match-up dependant and the 3D fighters are overall better balanced.

Stages are also cooler, and moments where you're near a wall/ledge become pretty intense (I actually would like they re-introduced ceilings back into tekken).

 

[RoBoBOBR]

I don't like juggling

But 3D fighters also use juggling combos, even more so than 2D ones, where a lot of combos rely on links or special/super cancels and might not even launch opponent. Spacing and whiff punishing is very important in 2D, so is movement. "Combo inputs" complexity vary greatly from game to game, so that's a weird point (also "analog stick"? who would play a fighting game using that? d-pad or stick, or hitbox is where it's at). Wall (corner) is also vital in 2D fighters.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

But 3D fighters also use juggling combos, even more so than 2D ones

Never said they don't have, but it's observably false that they have more than 2D ones, has again they lack the air game complexity of 2D figthing games (3D characters barely jump compared to 2D ones).

Spacing and whiff punishing is very important in 2D, so is movement.

Again never said they don't, just that their role in 3D figthing games is much more important/focused on.

also "analog stick"? who would play a fighting game using that? d-pad or stick, or hitbox is where it's at

Semantics.

Wall (corner) is also vital in 2D fighters.

I know but they work differentely to 3D figthers (obvious since you can have much more complex spaces in 3D enviroments) to the point where the stage's design does impact on match up balance.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

but it's observably false that they have more than 2D ones

What i meant was 3D fighters only have juggle combos for the most part, while 2D ones have more variety with links, special, super and other forms of cancels, ground based and air combos - and juggles as well (to clarify "juggle" is a combo where your character is on the ground and the opponent is being kept in the air with the attacks). Some 2D games have characters with their own specific mechanics that make their combos and overall gameplay unique even compared to other charas in the same game -- a good example would be Testament from Guilty Gear XX series with his stumps and nets, or Zappa/Eddie with their summons.

their role in 3D figthing games is much more important/focused on

In a game like Street Fighter footsies (that is spacing and whiff punishing your opponent's moves) is one of the most important things. Misjudging your position or going for a risky move can cost you a chunk of life and leave you at a disadvantage (waking up with the opponent on top), potentially leading to a round loss.

Also regarding the inputs - Tekken has stuff like just frames and EWGFs, Soul Calibur has Ivy's command throw. And not all 2D fighters are the same, there are plenty of games where you don't really need anything more than QCF.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

but it's observably false that they have more than 2D ones

Tekken has the bounciest combos of any fighter I'm pretty sure. (except HnK obv )

 

[DJOGamer PT]

What i meant was 3D fighters only have juggle combos for the most part

Oh c'mon man that's not true at all.
Tekken is the 3D figther were juggles are more common and easy to pull off - mostly because ever since Tekken 6 there has been a slight shift from pokes and mix-ups to launchers. And even despite this neutrals are more abundant and relied upon than launchers.
Fuck the main reason people hate Akuma in T7 is because he plays exactely like in SF (i.e. like a 2D figthing game character), and because of that he's the only damn character in the game than can juggle you out of 80-90% of your HP!!!
Not even Leroy can do that, and he's objectevely the most busted ass character of the game if not the whole franchise.

In a game like Street Fighter footsies (that is spacing and whiff punishing your opponent's moves) is one of the most important things.

Again I didn't say ground movement in 2D fighters isn't important but that it's simply more important to 3D fighters because their lack of air game and the obvious fact than 3D games allow for more complex movement.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

Tekken is the 3D figther were juggles are more common and easy to pull off - mostly because ever since Tekken 6 there has been a slight shift from pokes and mix-ups to launchers. And even despite this neutrals are more abundant and relied upon than launchers.

What mixups and pokes have to do with combos? Most Tekken combos are juggles, launch and keep hitting.

he's the only damn character in the game than can juggle you out of 80-90% of your HP!!!

 

[HeatEXTEND]

their lack of air game

Air game is also movement duh

 

[RoBoBOBR]

DJOGamer PT maybe i misunderstood you, and you were not talking about types of combos available in different fighters, but rather their frequency and importance in overall match flow. I agree, T7 is less combo-heavy than GG or maybe even SF5, but there are other 2D fighters out there. Take SamSho for example — it's all about pokes and spacing, no combos to speak of. That's the thing with 2D fighting games — there's a lot of them, and they are quite different, focusing on different aspects — some have crazy combos and setplay, others not at all.

 

[KVVRR]

Apparently some victory lines for Fighterz's new characters are in the code of the switch version. Roshi and Radditz might be in.

 

[Jason Liang]

So I figured out how to crack the Kofas gacha and now have all the wwe collab fighters.

My alt is even more loaded with Fes -

All f2p

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Tekken is the 3D figther were juggles are more common and easy to pull off - mostly because ever since Tekken 6 there has been a slight shift from pokes and mix-ups to launchers. And even despite this neutrals are more abundant and relied upon than launchers.

What mixups and pokes have to do with combos? Most Tekken combos are juggles, launch and keep hitting.

The point was clear, that even though the last 2 mainline Tekken saw a bit more focus on lauchers, neutrals are still abundant and more focused on (specially at high level play).
And again the higher prevalence of juggle is a T6+7 thing - it's a night and day difference to T5:



Still Tekken is the exception when it comes to juggles compared to the other 3D series. So overall 3D figthers aren't as juggle "heavy" as 2D - because again it's part of the vertical complexity that 2D has a much better access to.

he's the only damn character in the game than can juggle you out of 80-90% of your HP!!!

That guy is using Steve (which is overall one of the most powerful Tekken characters) bu more importantly he needed 3 combo extenders (2 walls splats and a floor/wall break).

Meanwhile Akuma can keep an enemy in the air for almost the same amount of time without the help of walls.
I mean look at this:



Even if this was an infinite stage, Akuma could've continued the combo after doing that shoryuken wall splat because that attack doesn't send an enemy particularly far and has attacks that cover that distance.



Or even Geese:

their lack of air game

Air game is also movement duh

I had specifically said ground movement from the start.

DJOGamer PT maybe i misunderstood you, and you were not talking about types of combos available in different fighters, but rather their frequency and importance in overall match flow.

That too.
To be fair the only 2D figthers I ever really got into aside from Melee was the SF series. I played some King of Figthers and a few anime figther when I was younger but from all of them SF Alpha 3 Max was the one I liked the most.
But even then I eventually got bored of it when realised that with most characters you only need to know a handful of moves because the rest was kinda redundant.
So from then on I mostly picked Ryu or Ken and would just back-up, spam hadoukens to zone them out and when they got close performed a simple anti-air like shoryuken and that was it.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Anyway...
Core-A-Gaming has nice video on the differences between 2D and 3D:

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I would just pick Ryu or Ken, back-up and spam shourikens to zone them out and when they got close I would simply do an anti-air an that's it.

You literally can't spam fireballs in Third Strike. The Parry mechanic completely eliminates that type of zoning/space control. Even if you went to Dragon Punch them as an anti-air they could still Parry on the way in.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I finished editing my post just now, like I said in it I mainly played Alpha 3 not 3rd Strike.

Also, FLOWCHART KEN BABY!!! :D

 

[RoBoBOBR]

I really don't think you can use Akuma and Geese in T7 as argument towards 2D mechanics or games. They are this way not because of being "2D characters", but due to Namco's programmers creting them this way (and just like with Leeroy i think they make DLC characters strong out of the gate to make people want to buy them). Akuma in SF5 (version they took for T7) does not do that kind of 80% damage combos, while being undoubtedly strong (due to good normals and specials, high stun output and variety of movement options to name a few).

Core-A video is a bit superficial. Spending so much time on trivial stuff like model mirroring? Not knowing that Oro has two arms (just do his EX super to see it for yourself)? Yes movement is important in Tekken and side-step dodging can create whiff punishing, but they gloss over the fact that movement is as important in 2D, while you can't sidestep in most 2D fighters (you could switch planes in Fatal Fury, but that's an old one), you still can use X-axis to make your opponent whiff and punish them for that, plus games frequently feature some ways to use attacks or mechanics to further diveresify your evading options - a move having low invuls for example, or even dash that goes over lows, special roll moves for evasion, etc. Depending on the game, eating a low attack in 2D fighter can lead to a damaging combo and/or advantageous situation for your opponent (like oki), making a simple step forward a risky option if your opponent is on point and thus raising the importance of spacing.

But even then I eventually got bored of it when realised that with most characters you only need to know a handful of moves because the rest was kinda redundant.

Ehm, most 2D games only have a handful of special and normal moves, and a super or two. An attack that has no use is a rarity. I can't really claim to be expert in 2D fightings, mostly i followed SF since 3S, Guilty Gear since XX Reload and passing knowledge of some other series, and in those a "redundant" attack is an exception to a rule. Can you provide some examples? To me Tekken has more redundant moves, like 10-hit strings that are punishable even on hit IIRC.

So from then on I mostly picked Ryu or Ken and would just back-up, spam hadoukens to zone them out and when they got close performed a simple anti-air like shoryuken and that was it.

Sure, some characters with fireballs use them for zoning, but unless the opponent is bad, just straight up fireball spam leads to swift loss, plus most games these days provide you with ample opportunity to punish a mistimed or misplaced projectile attack via jumps, attack that avoid projectiles via their movement trajectory or being invulnerable to projectiles, attacks that absorb fireballs, etc.
Here's an sf3 a3 match (since you played that game) by two good players, sure they use projectiles and antiair options, but there's quite a bit more complexity to that, than "just back-up, spam hadoukens to zone them out and when they got close performed a simple anti-air like shoryuken",they both use different approaches depending on the situation — jumps, normal attacks, specials. Mistimed jump are punished, but so are the mistimed projectiles.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I really don't think you can use Akuma and Geese in T7 as argument towards 2D mechanics or games. They are this way not because of being "2D characters",

They play pretty much like you play them in their respective games (same moves, inputs and mechanics) of course with the added quirks of 3D figthers (like the 8 way run, etc...).
In fact they play so closely to their source games that the player from that first Akuma video (Poongko - which is a Street Figther only player), ranked 3rd place on his first major Tekken Tournament - EVO 2016 - agaisnt pretty much the best players in the world (that play Tekken for 10+ years).

but he glosses over the fact that movement is as important in 2D

He specifically said ground movement which this is true and every community member and pro player will tell you same thing.

To me Tekken has more redundant moves, like 10-hit strings that are punishable even on hit IIRC

10 hit moves are meant for begginers to learn how to string combos.
The rest are mostly variations on the same move (with slightly different inputs, animations, properties, frame advantage, etc...). But that's what makes it's combo craft and playstyle variety even with the same character pretty compelling (there's no 2 equal Jin players).

 

[RoBoBOBR]

They play pretty much like you play them in their respective games

Again, Akuma in SF5/4 does not have that kind of damage. Your clips with Akuma combos show him not only use FADC cancels, but also bounds (none of them in SF), wall combo (same) and he ends with Raging Demon, wich can't be used like that in SF. So no, it's not "how you play him in his respective game".

ground movement

I was talking about ground movement as well. A lot of neutral game in newer SFs resolves around walking to be in the sweet spot, where you can poke or provoke whiffs and punish them, jumping is risky in games with no air block (SF 4 and 5). Same is true for SamSho and other more classic titles.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

But even then I eventually got bored of it when realised that with most characters you only need to know a handful of moves because the rest was kinda redundant.

Honest question, when I dabled in 3D fighters the advice I ran across the most was "learn the buttons you will actually be using, ignore the washlist". This indeed helped a lot and I have never felt this way in 2D fighters so what gave you that impression I'm curious?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

So no, it's not "how you play him in his respective game"

You're taking it literally.
Like I said they have added quirks of their transition to 3D, but their playstyle (how the character should generally be used, what he excels at, how to deal with) is in essence the same - plus the fact he's moves/inputs are those from SF4+5 helps alot.
If this wasn't the case then there's be no fucking way a guy that never took a 3D figther seriously (but is pro in SF) would give the best players in the world a run for their money.

Even the pros say they have difficulties dealing with Akuma (and the other 2D characters) because their gameplay is so different from that of traditional 3D figthers:

I was talking about ground movement as well.

Dude.
Yet again.
No one is saying it isn't important just that's it's more so in 3D figthers simply due to the fact they have nothing else, no verticality whatsoever, ground movement is all they have.
This doesn't make one better than the other, is just that they focus on different things and play differently.

But even then I eventually got bored of it when realised that with most characters you only need to know a handful of moves because the rest was kinda redundant.

Honest question, when I dabled in 3D fighters the advice I ran across the most was "learn the buttons you will actually be using, ignore the washlist". This indeed helped a lot and I have never felt this way in 2D fighters so what gave you that impression I'm curious?

Boredom.
The fact that there were so few moves to master I eventually learned that I needed only to repeat a couple of moves with most character to win.
Flowchart Ken might be a meme, but whether or not SF fans like to admit it is an extremely effiecient way to play.
Not saying this works on a pro level, but I don't play at a pro level.
And for me after awhile I ended feeling that way about every other character, so I got bored with it.

But with Soul Calibur 2, that has never happened and I've been playing it since I got my GameCube 10 years ago.
Now with Tekken, like I said most moves in Tekken are variations on the same move, but since they have different properties/details it's rare a case where one move is clearly the superior one. So they are for most part pretty viable and I really like that variety, I think that's what makes combo crafting in that game pretty fun (and also to an extent SC since they are from the same "devs").
Then there's the other 3D figthers. While I can't say much about Dead or Alive because I haven't played it, but when it comes to both depth and balance very few games come close to Virtua Figther 5 - IMO that game is in a league of it's own.

And in the end I just have a preference for 3D figthing games...

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

So from then on I mostly picked Ryu or Ken and would just back-up, spam hadoukens to zone them out and when they got close performed a simple anti-air like shoryuken and that was it.

that's exactly how arcade sf2 ryu played, fireball spam and shoryuken when close enough. i loved when i got him last because it was the easiest. you vertical jumped the fireballs, every time taking a little step forward, when you were in range instead of a vertical jump you did a flying kick.
the only time this has ever worked is in that ultraretarded bootleg version where ryu and ken would shoot waves of fireballs each time or leave a wall of fireballs every shoryuken. damn, that was idioticly fun.

 

[c2007]

Good thread, solid OP.

...

Do you still speak with your Dad? Mine said some similar fucked up shit once upon a time, and it ultimately resulted in not speaking to each other for most of the past 30 years.

Just curious if you ever punched him in the face or hadoken to the balls or something? Way cooler than the silent treatment, but by the time I knew I'd win the fight it was no longer a fight I wanted anymore. Or, did you end up agreeing with him?

I read the rest of the OP of course, it was interesting to read names for techniques I did in SF2 The World Warrior back in the arcade tourney days.