Lethality in RPG's, which one do you prefer?

[JarlFrank]

Amazing post. I only wanna complement one thing

I HATE the system "potions/stimpacks/wathever" insta work and insta teleport to inside your body.

The best system is from Gothic 2 - RETURNING on hard difficulty. You press a button to drink a potion? The character has a actual drinking animation which takes time and after the potion is inside your belly, it slowly regen about 1% of your health/mana per second. The exception is the insta potion which is extremely expensive, available in small amount per merchant and the recipes to make then not only require expensive reagents but also are behind the most terrifying optional bosses.

Yeah many low lethality systems are further made boring by adding insta-heal items that can be consumed within one second.
Diablo and all its clones? Chugging health potions all the time is an intended part of the gameplay.
Anything Bethesda makes? Once you go into the inventory, the game pauses, and you can use healing items at no time cost. You can eat 10 cheeses, 20 meats, and 50 cabbages within 1 second to heal yourself.

And even if using healing items does take time, usually they're so cheap and plentiful that by the end of the game, you have 100 of them in your inventory and attrition (which is the point of low lethality systems... if you have a lot of HP the point is that you won't die in one encounter, but damage accumulates across several encounters until you run out of resources; old Wizardries play like that, for example) becomes a complete non-issue.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[CabbageHead]

I guess this will be my first post here.

As someone who like realistic or close to realistic setting like low fantasy, near future, hard sci-fi and post-apocalypse i do prefer close to IRL lethality in my game, RPG or otherwise. A gunshot should hurt a lot and even a .22 should be lethal if it hit the right place. I would love to see a RPG game were every character including the player have a limb status/condition and a blood meter instead of health bar, so if one of your arm get blown off you can still fight depending on your stat like strength+willpower or something but this limb loss is permanent and it trigger a count down until you pass out and die from blood loss, health item become a myriad of medical tools and item like bandage, pain killer, blood clotting agent and many other.

Kenshi but more lethal and with guns come to mind, or a more lethal less janky boiling point with no miracle cure painkiller and donuts.

 

[Bohrain]

If a non-boss unit takes more than 3 hits to down in turn-based combat, the fight usually devolves into a slog.

 

[DraQ]

but it never feels good to have your group wiped out because some goblin archer got a crit on your tank and killed them instantly or whatever. Unless the game has low RNG, which then I suppose it's on the player.

This is literally my game. Some promo I wrote ages ago:

RNGesus rules with an iron fist here. Even the mightiest of knights in peak condition can be instantly killed by a single lucky arrow, shot by a frail goblin who has never used a bow in it's life.

So you're making a more elaborate version of Russian Roulette?

 

[Ocelot]

High lethality is more interesting because it forces you to think about your decisions instead of hugging enemies knowing both you and them are walking tanks.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

On a more serious note, I prefer it when only certain monsters can effectively "one shot kill" you and usually because you were ill-equipped. A dragon flying up and breathing fire on your party that has no resistance to it should result in them becoming ash. A jobber goblin shooting an arrow with such eagle eye precision that it perfectly hits and kills your tank in a single blow? Fuck that.

That's why I'm more a fan of monsters that fuck with you. Poison, petrification, mind control, level drain, etc. If a kobold can kill you as easily as a dragon then why fear the dragon at all?

 

[moon knight]

It depends on the game.

 

[Cryomancer]

So you're making a more elaborate version of Russian Roulette?

Nope because it would be extremely unlikely. That a goblin bow can hit exactly in the eye spot of a powerful knight for eg. Would be something like wining in the lottery twice in a row.

Armor does not allow you to dodge more.

But armor doesn't allow you to dodge more. Armor "DEFLECT" blows or make it non lethal.

It applies earlier roman armor to the modern infantry armor. An kevlar vest doesn't make you dodge a 9mm round. You still get hit, just don't have the bullet inside you.

Life/Death is a boolean. You are either alive and jumping around like Stallone, or you are dead. 1 HP? You can literally dance jigs. 0 HP? DEAD FOREVER.

GURPS has your damages severely impacting your char. And had modular damage. Same for fallout 1/2/nv(I don't consider bugthesda's ones as true fallout)

But for death. IMO should be stages.

Average human = 1d4 hp
0 hp = Unconscious
-1 to -4(1d4) = Unconscious
-5 to -20 = Dead
-21- = Erradicated, the corpse is destroyed.

Might & Magic series actually implemented something similar.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

I prefer lethal combat, but also ones that make sense.

Fighting a perfectly normal rat should not be lethal. Fighting an elite military unit who happens to have the best gear available on the planet should be.

Games that treat both encounters as the same depending on arbitrary level systems can fuck right off.

I think I was killed by a chicken once in a cRPG... and not a man-sized, man-eating chicken either. Just a regular chicken. That just ain't right.

Spoiler

When I was a kid, I used to watch a local Boston TV show for kids called Major Mudd every day before school. One day, Major Mudd said, "Kids, stay tuned! Because at the end of the show we're going to show you an actual live man-eating chicken in the studio with us!" Excited beyond measure, I stayed until the end, knowing I would suffer grave consequences from my teacher for being late for school. But it just had to be worth it! I mean, a fucking man-eating chicken!!! Sure enough, there it was, at the end of the show - a man eating chicken... from a bucket, I believe... KFC, I think.

 

[Tavernking]

Shameless self promotion but since this thread was on my mind, I'm going to advertise my extremely high lethality game here. Click on the link in my signature and try the combat demo I just released today.

 

[Crispy]

"Lethality" can also be linked to a game's metaknowledge (rather, yours of it) or lack thereof.

For example, the very first time many people play ToEE, they're shocked at how quickly their fledgling party is overwhelmed and defeated by the giant frogs outside the moathouse, and often ragequit right there and then. If not then, then certainly once they reach Lareth and his cronies.

The most fun I can get out of an RPG is going in fresh, no metaknowledge, and attempting my best to live with the consequences of my choices both in and out of combat. That's not always possible, but for me it's the most honest way to play.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I think I was killed by a chicken once in a cRPG... and not a man-sized, man-eating chicken either. Just a regular chicken. That just ain't right.

When I was young and playing Baldur's Gate, my 2 HP elf Evoker got killed by a house cat in Candlekeep. It wasn't even a critical hit. I had used my two spells already, and after stomping the rats I thought about smashing that XP bag that looked like a cat. Turns out this cat was made of tougher stuff than my wizard was. Very funny.

 

[Arulan]

At least a High lethality is what I prefer, but how much higher really depends.

I like a lot of what Kenshi does here. It can be pretty lethal, but it has some good range between threats. A lot of what makes Beak Things and Blood Spiders so terrifying is that they'll tear right through you, rip your limbs off, and eat you alive. A very high lethality where most enemies can kill with a good shot risks becoming stagnant. I also think that Kenshi's consequences for losing, rather than having to reload makes the high lethality more enjoyable. You may lose a fight and get robbed, taken into slavery, dragged to a cannibal camp, or lose a limb, but it's not over just yet. Your story can still continue.

 

[laclongquan]

One important fact we need to keep in mind here

Realistic =/= gameplay's fun

If you do realistic, it's highly possible your players would get ragequit after a few "circumstances". Because everybody know antimateriel sniper rifle can oneshot you behind cover from 500 m away. or a rocket launcher can say fuck you to a room full of entrenched shooters from, say, 100 m away. Ditto with a heavy machinegun like M60 or M2 Browning. Bulletproof vest or not~

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

One important fact we need to keep in mind here

Realistic =/= gameplay's fun

If you do realistic, it's highly possible your players would get ragequit after a few "circumstances". Because everybody know antimateriel sniper rifle can oneshot you behind cover from 500 m away. or a rocket launcher can say fuck you to a room full of entrenched shooters from, say, 100 m away. Ditto with a heavy machinegun like M60 or M2 Browning. Bulletproof vest or not~

This is your DM being shit, not a problem with the mechanics. In such a realistic scenario, the DM should introduce the threat of a one-hit kill weapon before unleashing it directly on the party to give them a chance to develop a countermeasure. Ideally the DM would show the AM-rifle/bazooka blowing away several things in view of the PCs in a manner that frustrates and indirectly threatens them, while building up tension for the final encounter and showing that the stakes are high. If the players aren't very familiar with the rules, they should also be made aware that the PCs will not survive a single hit from a weapon that can destroy an armored vehicle within the game system, and that they will have to devise some other method besides a head-on confrontation.

 

[Lilura]

Also, both lack fatigue as a stat. Which btw is something that needs to be talked more about - people don't tire in most games. Which, btw, is ridiculous.

Jagged Alliance 2.

No true RPG connoseur considers Bethesda Fallouts as real Fallouts, of course.

A true RPG connoisseur calls Bethesda's shit Oblivion With Guns.

 

[Cryomancer]

Energy transfer is a thing. Even with kevlar, getting shot by a shotgun is like being hit by a car going at 30km. Yeah, 30km ins't that much and likely not lethal, but it will still hurt you considerably.

For dealing damage in heavy armor, maces are much better than swords and on BG2, plate armor has better AC vs slash than vs blunt.

But your analogy with firearms, you are assuming that every firearm, every "shotgun round" and every armor is the same and spoiler. Aren't. A slugs armor piercing round probably can get trough kevlar. A birdshot in other hands, will probably not pierce. There are some body armor rated to stop even .30-06 armor piercing, it makes you immune to "rifle rounds"? well, a rifle can be chambered in .22 LR or 14.5x114mm which no body armor can even get close to stop, it will go trough most armored vehicles, except few heavy ones. People tend to underestimate shotguns due video games... Where shotguns lacks the same versatility and range that has IRL.

One important fact we need to keep in mind here

Realistic =/= gameplay's fun

If you do realistic, it's highly possible your players would get ragequit after a few "circumstances". Because everybody know antimateriel sniper rifle can oneshot you behind cover from 500 m away. or a rocket launcher can say fuck you to a room full of entrenched shooters from, say, 100 m away. Ditto with a heavy machinegun like M60 or M2 Browning. Bulletproof vest or not~

ArmA 3 disagrees.

This is your DM being shit, not a problem with the mechanics. In such a realistic scenario, the DM should introduce the threat of a one-hit kill weapon before unleashing it directly on the party to give them a chance to develop a countermeasure.

On GURPS technomancer, spells that can create FOG are one of the best counters to snipers...

 

[Lilura]

For dealing damage in heavy armor, maces are much better than swords and on BG2, plate armor has better AC vs slash than vs blunt.

Armor AC modifiers vs. weapon dmg type is an AD&D 2nd Edition rule which first appeared in Baldur's Gate.

Also, have you played Jagged Alliance 2 and Silent Storm? You'd probably like them.

 

[Lilura]

On GURPS technomancer, spells that can create FOG are one of the best counters to snipers...

In JA2, can employ gases to hinder rival riflemen vision, too.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Also, have you played Jagged Alliance 2 and Silent Storm? You'd probably like them.

I'd be surprised if he did like them.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Armor AC modifiers vs. weapon dmg type is an AD&D 2nd Edition rule which first appeared in Baldur's Gate.

Armor AC modifiers versus weapon type was an optional rule introduced into Dungeon & Dragons via Supplement I: Greyhawk in 1975, originating in the Chainmail Rules for Medieval Miniatures.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Because everybody know antimateriel sniper rifle can oneshot you behind cover from 500 m away.

You should ask yourself a question why antimateriel rifle is called exactly "antimateriel" and why it's used very rarely against infantry.

 

[laclongquan]

What? That's realistics.

But ingame they are overpowered and will raise outcrys of "nerf it, nerf it!"

 

[Sarathiour]

Obviously higher lethality system would come on top for the vote, with a bit of variation depending on the game and each personal approach on difficulty.

Which had me thinking, was there ever a game with low or very low lethality that was not ass ?