KOTOR an RPG?

[Quigs]

Dont know how i missed that. Thanks saint.

 

[TFVanguard]

That situation would never happen in turn based, ever, because turn based is sequential, not simultaneous.

Wow.. what an incredibly stupid situation. In a simultaneous situation, as well as reality, the guy with a gun will SHOOT the guy with a knife as he approaches...

 

[ichpokhudezh]

if you're playing with phases instead of flat turns- are you suddenly NOT playing an RPG?

My original point was that KotOR has RB, not TB. Let's avoid cheap derailing tactics.

You can turn her to the light side, snapping her out of it, a lot easier. You could also sudue her, kill her, or make her join you on the dark side. Quite a few options there, really.

False. That plays out slightly differently in the game. She joins you (or you follow her - whatever interpretation you prefer) mechanically, you have no say in that. You have a choice of killing her or turning her on your LS route, though.

So what else do you see your attributes applied to?

Interactions with NPCs, as your charisma is a huge deal , particularly in Jolee's subquest, as well as recruiting members.

Enlighten me how does CHA affects 'recruiting' of the members? :shock:
We probably played different games...

Also, feats are effectively special skills, just of the 'on/off' variety.

False. Take, for example, 'Force Sensitive', 'Force Focus', etc.

See, if you're role-playing, you can do stuff that doesn't make sense to you. But you should not do stuff that wouldn't make sense to your character. That's the difference of RPG-experience to me.

Which means there's a grand total of zero CRPGs out there.

Check out Geneforge. I played the demo and almost everything just makes sense at the first glance.

 

[TFVanguard]

False. That plays out slightly differently in the game. She joins you (or you follow her - whatever interpretation you prefer) mechanically, you have no say in that. You have a choice of killing her or turning her on your LS route, though.

It's based on your CHA, Persuade, and conversation choices. Some are easier than others. If she's a romance interest, it's very easy to get her with you either as LS or DS Revan.

Enlighten me how does CHA affects 'recruiting' of the members? :shock:We probably played different games...

Juhani ring a bell?

False. Take, for example, 'Force Sensitive', 'Force Focus', etc.

Bought up special abilities.. sounds a lot like skills to me. You're just parsing semantics here.

 

[Transcendent One]

Speaking of Juhani, you'd be very screwed if you don't take her. That "choice" was fairly ridiculous.

 

[TFVanguard]

Speaking of Juhani, you'd be very screwed if you don't take her. That "choice" was fairly ridiculous.

I actually didn't use her much, surprisingly. I had Carth and Bastilla through most of the game, swapping Carth with Jolee for the end run.

 

[Transcendent One]

The problem is that anything non-Jedi is basically nerfed in the game. And anything using blasters is even worse. Bastila isn't accessible for several large chunks, and Jolie is a consular I think. Which means if your PC isn't a guardian, you won't have any serious melee power in your group. But then it doesn't matter, cause force wave means you'll never even have to go into melee.

 

[TFVanguard]

The problem is that anything non-Jedi is basically nerfed in the game. And anything using blasters is even worse. Bastila isn't accessible for several large chunks, and Jolie is a consular I think. Which means if your PC isn't a guardian, you won't have any serious melee power in your group. But then it doesn't matter, cause force wave means you'll never even have to go into melee.

That's one of the biggest problems with Star Wars. In a universe of mortals, Jedis are demigods. They're inherently unbalanced, which isn't an issue with KOTOR, but with the Star Wars universe itself.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Give one of the custom swords to Zaalbar (or whatever his name is) and you have one of the best tanks in the game.

 

[Voss]

The juhlani situation was one of the examples of bad game design in KotoR- the infinite conversation loop, where saying the wrong thing has no consequences beyond getting dumped out of the conversation. Sure you could push it and kill her, but unless you do it deliberately, you can run through the conservation tree repeatedly until you get the result you want. And its not the only place it happens either. Thats bad role-playing. Decisions should have consequences- that is the real thing that matters in RPGs. Combat is filler by comparison. Yet that was the major problem with KOTOR- the decisions (and consequences) were often taken away from the player. Which is why you were stuck with 7 of 9 npcs- you had to take them. You couldn't ally with the Sith on the water world. You couldn't really join the Sith on their training planet. You couldn't tell the jedi to go screw themselves. Bastilla had to get capture by Darth Malak, no matter how badly you were kicking his ass on the ship.
These are the situations where KotoR was really flawed.
That and the whole light/dark conflict felt like you were deliberately picking which ending to see, rather than the character falling/being tempted/redeeming him/herself. It felt shallow. I will be mean to this bum, because I want dark side points.

 

[mr. lamat]

i've said it before and will say it again... it's about as involved and theatrical as resource management can get, but there is no choice.

 

[Volourn]

"Speaking of Juhani, you'd be very screwed if you don't take her."

Bullshit. This is an outright.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The worst thing about Juhani was that you had a question during your Jedi training that went something like that: you are fighting a dark jedi, he pauses, what would you do? The guardian answer was keep fighting, which didn't get any "OMG! That leads to the DS" response. So, naturally, after being asked to deal with the dark Jedi, I go there, we fight, she stops to chat, and I, being a good guardian, ignore her DS trickery and kill her. Next thing I know, the council is upset at me. I just told you that that's how I would deal with dark Jedi, and that was perfectly ok. WTF? Oh, the dialogues are meaningless? I see. Cool.

 

[Spazmo]

Bullshit. This is an outright.

Volourn's right. It doesn't matter who's in your party. I did the Star Forge with Carth along and it didn't matter that he was shit because my constant force waves kept everything dead.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

1. KotOR is a round-based game.

Fair enough. 'pause and play' might be more accurate, mind you.

Wrong. The 'round' in KotOR is fixed and simultaneous for all party characters.
Try using medpacks/etc.
Besides, even Bioware employees call it round-based.

And the official FAQ calls it realtime with pause.

Yes, it's a very very MAD WORLD.

 

[ichpokhudezh]

False. That plays out slightly differently in the game. She joins you (or you follow her - whatever interpretation you prefer) mechanically, you have no say in that. You have a choice of killing her or turning her on your LS route, though.

It's based on your CHA, Persuade, and conversation choices. Some are easier than others. If she's a romance interest, it's very easy to get her with you either as LS or DS Revan.

BS. CHA does not matter, neither having the romance previously. In the so-called 'DS' path you're stuck with her (no choice of killing/not trusting). I don't exactly remember if the LS dialog on the Star Forge checks for your Persuade. In any case, the usual Persuade=6 will get all the choices and you can try them until it rolls into your favor.

Enlighten me how does CHA affects 'recruiting' of the members? :shock:We probably played different games...

Juhani ring a bell?

Another case of BS. The result of that conversation does not depend on your CHA. Some choices are based on Persuade check, I believe. Even without them, there's a way to avoid killing her.

False. Take, for example, 'Force Sensitive', 'Force Focus', etc.

Bought up special abilities.. sounds a lot like skills to me. You're just parsing semantics here.

What's up with the 'parsing semantics' argument? Can you explain this to me?
Are you implying that I'm trying hard to understand your words but failing? Or are you implying that you tried to BS me through some clever use of ambiguity so I need to 'parse' aforementioned S[tuff]?

'Sounds a lot' doesn't mean 'is a', anyways. How does Force Sensitive (FP+40) resemble a skill?

 

[TFVanguard]

BS. CHA does not matter, neither having the romance previously.

Wow. I'm now of the complete opinion that you are an unmitigated liar. I don't think I've ever written someone off so quickly before. Congratulations.

 

[suibhne]

That situation would never happen in turn based, ever, because turn based is sequential, not simultaneous.

Wow.. what an incredibly stupid situation. In a simultaneous situation, as well as reality, the guy with a gun will SHOOT the guy with a knife as he approaches...

And that, my friend, is why KotOR's combat sucks.

 

[TFVanguard]

And that, my friend, is why KotOR's combat sucks.

Light Sabers aren't knives.. they're magical plot devices.

 

[dipdipdip]

Juhani ring a bell?

Actually, just below the [Persuade] option, there was a regular dialogue option that would also work to convince her to turn back just the same -- no persuade required. I remember that this was something that bothered me, as it seemed to me that having persuade gave me no edge in the situation.

In fact, the only time I'd felt persuade was of real use was in haggling prices for the game's two droids. It's not like you could talk your way out of any of the game's major fights against Calo, Bandon, or Malak.

 

[Voss]

yep. You don't need persuade for any of the main plot things. Theres almost always a non persuade option- it usually involved multiple choices and navigating your way through the dialogue tree, but since a 'wrong' answer just forces you to start the conversation over, you aren't losing anything. You simply gain in mild frustration.

So, TF, ichpa-whatever isn't lying.
And you should be ashamed for writing someone off so quickly. It makes you a bad person, or so I'm told.

 

[ichpokhudezh]

BS. CHA does not matter, neither having the romance previously.

Wow. I'm now of the complete opinion that you are an unmitigated liar. I don't think I've ever written someone off so quickly before. Congratulations.

Let me get this straight. A number of people demonstrated your intellectual impotence, I, personally, brought up valid in-game observations, that completely destroy all your generalizations and vague rhetoric.

Now, without any reasoning whatsoever you call me a liar?
This is hilarious. Is that your preferred fall-back troll tactics?
Go away, little twit, I'm bored with you.

 

[TFVanguard]

Actually, just below the [Persuade] option, there was a regular dialogue option that would also work to convince her to turn back just the same -- no persuade required. I remember that this was something that bothered me, as it seemed to me that having persuade gave me no edge in the situation.[/quote]

I always had the high persuade and Charisma, so it never came up. But I also turned Malak at the end, which apparently few people ever did. (He dies, of course, but somwhat redeemed)... also, persuade does work on merchants, etc, at various points. It's not a worthless skill.

My wife informed me that you had to do the conversation trees over and over without the persuade option.. because it's a d20 check (which CHA and skill add bonuses to). I suppose they HAD to give the option for people without the Charisma modifers, but I'll agree that if you can just redo it over and over until you luck out, it ruins the point.

It's not like you could talk your way out of any of the game's major fights against Calo, Bandon, or Malak.

Malak you can talk to with persuade AFTER the battle. Would have been nice if you could mess with Calo, though. Bandon was... well.. pathetic.

 

[TFVanguard]

So, TF, ichpa-whatever isn't lying.
And you should be ashamed for writing someone off so quickly. It makes you a bad person, or so I'm told.

Yes he is. He said that CHA and persuade doesn't affect the game, and it most obviously does. It's not the only option for Juhani, etc, but it is a valid one, and less frustrating than repeating the convo tree a few times just to trip the option with a lucky roll. So, yes, the skills make a difference.

And, besides, he's a self-obsessed little twit anyway. And he smells like Grognard.

 

[Voss]

There are many, many situations were they don't make any difference at all. And you can get the same result without them. So how does it make a difference?
If you still get the whatsit, still convince the NPC, get the exact same result- the skill check is completely irrelevant, and so is the skill.
If there were a significant number of situations with actually consequences where not making the persuade check actually had a real effect- enemies turned hostile, you could never get the whibble device, NPCs die, etc. then, the skill would matter. None of the skills really matter. Your character certainly didn't need to develop them. In the oh-so-rare cases that you couldn't find a way around something, just pull the NPCs in to do it. And if the ones you have with you don't have it, just insta-swap them, with magic teleportation device.
The only case where a skill made a real difference was repairing the psycho-bot. If you didn't have repair, it didn't happen.
I'm talking real differences now, not you had to go through the conversation tree again, or you get 2 less hit points for using a medi-pack.

And as a point, no one with a list of game references going back to ultima 1 should be using Grognard as an insult. Particularly with how fucking picky you've been.
Pot, Kettle...

Oh, yes. And just because you didn't notice something in a game, doesn't mean it isn't there.