KOTOR an RPG?

[Saint_Proverbius]

The strongest distinction between the two, then, is if character action is simultaneious. If so, it should not be described as turn-based.

But it is different than real-time, which is a point I think a lot of people lose. When you can, turn by turn, pause to give commands, you're getting a hybrid - and the 'turn engine under the hood' does make a large difference in the style of play.

You don't go "turn by turn", you idiot. You go round by round, because there is no implimentation of turns in KotOR. A turn is a frame of reference per character in an orderly sequence. That's been the definition of turn since turn based gaming began. One unit goes, then another, then another, and so on until the round is resolved. Then the next round starts and the process begins again with the remaining units.

It's almost like you're calling a dog an elephant, and then when someone points out the dog is only three feet tall, is covered in hair, and lacks a prehensile trunk, you just say, Well, that's just your definition of elephant.

 

[TFVanguard]

You don't go "turn by turn", you idiot. You go round by round, because there is no implimentation of turns in KotOR.

Bullshit. Turns are implemented in attacks, as defined by d20 Star Wars. It's under the hood, true, but it's there. It's not chess like, it's not monopoly like, no , and I didn't claim that it was - ever. I am saying that it's not purely real time, and that it uses a different method of handling turns than older games are wont to do.

One unit goes, then another, then another, and so on until the round is resolved. Then the next round starts and the process begins again with the remaining units.

Then explain all those turn-based games that don't do things that way? I cited them - so what's your explanation? You're basically saying that only Dalmatations are dogs, and that the Chiuaua over there must obviously be a rodent, since it's not a Dalmation.

 

[ichpokhudezh]

1. KotOR is a round-based game.

Fair enough. 'pause and play' might be more accurate, mind you.

Wrong. The 'round' in KotOR is fixed and simultaneous for all party characters.
Try using medpacks/etc.
Besides, even Bioware employees call it round-based.
edit: besides, there's a setting 'pause after each round' in the game. To better understand the mechanics, try it sometitme.

2. Whatever else, KotOR is not[/ a SW universe role-playing game.

Yes. It is. Lucas said so. Pretty much everyone on the planet says so - except for a few die-hards with an axe to grind about what comprises a 'pure' RPG.

1. Lucas made Ep 1 and 2, didn't he? He lost all credibility after that, imo.
2. Pretty much no one says it's a SW RPG besides ignorant outspoken half-wits who don't know jack about SW and RPG in general.
3. Before we get into 'pure' stuff, let me ask you, have you got any idea what SW RPG is (even in d20 version?), do you understand what are DS points and when/why a Jedi gets them and how Jedi can get rid of them? If you cannot give a cohesive definition on this one, re-read #2, please do so.

3. KotOR has a preset main story line with mandatory waypoints and a single branching point 5% before the ending credits. Both branches are available to any type of character.

Wrong. There are lots of smaller branching points in the quests and interactions with NPCs. There are four distinct endings to the game, which is three more than most RPGs offer. The big branching point is near the end, but it's not the only one.

How do I need to emphasize "MAIN" to get the message through? Kissing somebody vs not does not constitute a storyline branching point to me (unless we talk about them hentai games, of course).

4. There were exactly 2 roles that fit good into the story: an evil thug with planet-sized charisma and a goody-goody psycho butcher.

Your opinion and hyperbolic. I know several dozen people who've played the game, and I've seen a much wider variety of characters than this.

No, I'm pretty solid on this one. See #2 from my list on 'pure RPG' point.
While you can try to play different roles, the game story plays out so you become one of the two anyways (the exact color of your LS-DS bar, which is another nonsense in a SW RPG setting, by the way, doesn't matter).

5. Attributes were useful for changing your combat pattern only.

Flatly wrong. Attributes figured heavily into how you handle NPC and party-member relations as well. As for physical stats.. well, tell me a game where the primary role of physical stats isn't combat.

Please give me an example where there would be a change in a game world based on your stat?
So far, I have found none.

6. Only one skill actually mattered in the game (if reading a sidestory and accessing a combat upgrade matters to you).

Again, flatly wrong. Different skills have different uses in many points in the game. Some are worth more than others, but show me a CRPG where that isn't the case.

No. Repair was the only one that was noticeable. Everything else was superficial. High persuade was irreplaceable in two cases for the whole game only.

Sounds like you plowed through KOTOR, and did none of the sidequests, or major NPC interactions.

About 7 distinct times through and numerous changes (party members, sidelines, planet sequence, skillset etc).
What is your next line?

 

[suibhne]

Then explain all those turn-based games that don't do things that way? I cited them - so what's your explanation? You're basically saying that only Dalmatations are dogs, and that the Chiuaua over there must obviously be a rodent, since it's not a Dalmation.

You've written one or two intelligent things in that mess of 66 messages you generated over the past few days. Don't go ruining such a sterling legacy with this windmill-tilting.

Or at least use the "Search" feature, to prepare yourself for the catastrophe you've invited.

 

[TFVanguard]

Wrong. The 'round' in KotOR is fixed and simultaneous for all party characters. Try using medpacks/etc.

It's d20 phase based, that's true.. just doesn't play out like - say - Battleground games with their phased-based turns.

1. Lucas made Ep 1 and 2, didn't he? He lost all credibility after that, imo.

Okay, I'll give you that one.

2. Pretty much no one says it's a SW RPG besides ignorant outspoken half-wits who don't know jack about SW and RPG in general.

I've been doing RPGs for years, and KOTOR certainly gets the Star Wars feel down cold (Episode 4-6 anyway). Sure, it's not West End, and it's a little lose with d20's interpretation, but it's still a role-playing system. I don't understand why the insistance on it's not being one.

How do I need to emphasize "MAIN" to get the message through? Kissing somebody vs not does not constitute a storyline branching point to me (unless we talk about them hentai games, of course).

Actually ,since kissing Bastilla can affect the main story, I think you lost your point here. But, seriously, to say that 'choices don't count since they don't affect the overall ending' seems like a cop-out to disregard all the depth that is there.

While you can try to play different roles, the game story plays out so you become one of the two anyways (the exact color of your LS-DS bar, which is another nonsense in a SW RPG setting, by the way, doesn't matter).

I was neither. It's your opinion, and your observations, but I'm telling you flatly that it's not remotely my experience.

Please give me an example where there would be a change in a game world based on your stat?

You said that stats only affected your combat abilty. I said wrong. Now you're changing the argument so that it's a weakness that they don't affect the overall world - but it's a weakness that all other RPGs have?

No. Repair was the only one that was noticeable. Everything else was superficial. High persuade was irreplaceable in two cases for the whole game only.

Persuade makes a huge difference in a lot of places. Combat skills are obvious. Security skills are useful (though having the little droid my make that moot at times)... etc. There are uses for all the skills in the game. Doesn't mean that it's the most effective way to do it, but you can go that route.

About 7 distinct times through and numerous changes (party members, sidelines, planet sequence, skillset etc). What is your next line?

Then why all the focus on things only effecting the ending? It's obvious that Bioware does have a 'palette' of endings to choose from, which is no different from other RPGs.. but instead focuses much more heavily on the trip. Why are you demanding that it's not an RPG because you don't have freeform control over the ending when very very few games even have more than one ending regardless of what you do in the game?

 

[Vault Dweller]

You don't go "turn by turn", you idiot. You go round by round, because there is no implimentation of turns in KotOR.

Bullshit. Turns are implemented in attacks, as defined by d20 Star Wars. It's under the hood, true, but it's there. It's not chess like, it's not monopoly like, no , and I didn't claim that it was - ever. I am saying that it's not purely real time, and that it uses a different method of handling turns than older games are wont to do.

Priceless.

Here is the complete collection for those who missed it:

Let's see, KOTOR's got character generation, turn-based combat...You can pause at any time with the space bar (on PC), and then issue commands. If you pay attention, you can see how the phases of each turn play out.
....
Turn based means things happen in turns. Sorry, it's not the early 80's anymore, so a new system was developed. Personally, I like the 'pause turn' aspect more, since I can let those 'my 10th level warrior against two kobolds' combats just happen and drag the entire game down to micromanage a non-challenging combat.

The only difference is that the computer queues up commands in phases, but does not stop at the end of each turn. This allows for much more realistic combat handling as well - so I'm very surprised that these legendary grognards are so against it.
.....
I know how the engine works internally. You don't. There are turns broken down into phases. Comparing the timing to what's listed in d20 Star Wars, and you'll start to see how it is put together. It's pretty much that system, only slightly looser for the medium.
.....
All a phase is, is a smaller-turn in a bigger, but just as arbitrary, full-turn. All a turn is is just an arbitrary 'time period' for the pieces to move. You're trying to rigidly define a 'turn' based on what you want an RPG to have, and otherwise have no basis in reality, as there are many, many easily cited examples to contradict you.

So, imperically speaking, do you actually know anything about game design?
....
But it is different than real-time, which is a point I think a lot of people lose. When you can, turn by turn, pause to give commands, you're getting a hybrid - and the 'turn engine under the hood' does make a large difference in the style of play.

Wow. I love those game design references.

 

[ichpokhudezh]

Offtopic

[ot]
I started to read the forum after David Gaider mentioned it some 2 months ago on a DA board. Despite constant critique and foulmouthed arguments found it immensely insightful and having unique flavor. So far, I'm enjoying it very much, thanks to everybody.
[/ot]

 

[Vault Dweller]

You're welcome. Enjoy your stay at the Codex.

 

[Volourn]

LOL Dave Gaider is using the mad BIO advertising skillz to pimp for the Codex. Beautiful.



VERY IMPORTANT NOTICE BELOW:





KOTOR is a RPG whether you like it or not. That's a fact. Deal with it, or call the Codex liars 'cause the 'codex would never cover non pgs. Right? Right? Right?

 

[Vault Dweller]

what "a" stands for in aRPG? Allegedly?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Re: Offtopic

[ot]
I started to read the forum after David Gaider mentioned it some 2 months ago on a DA board. Despite constant critique and foulmouthed arguments found it immensely insightful and having unique flavor. So far, I'm enjoying it very much, thanks to everybody.
[/ot]

Think of the foulmouthing as that one whole piece of habanero pepper you put in your chili for a bit of zest, only you end up being the person who bites in to it. It's SPICY, baby!

 

[protobob]

The strongest distinction between the two, then, is if character action is simultaneious. If so, it should not be described as turn-based.

But it is different than real-time, which is a point I think a lot of people lose. When you can, turn by turn, pause to give commands, you're getting a hybrid - and the 'turn engine under the hood' does make a large difference in the style of play.

The difference between real-time with pause and pure real-time is minimal in comparision to the difference between turn-based and real-time with pause.

I think often devs attempt to present the real-time with pause as something to placate turn-based lovers. But from the turn-based lover's perspective, real-time with pause is missing the complete tactical control that he wants, and therefore he thinks badly of the developer, or atleast badly of the developer's attempt to placate him.

 

[Quigs]

Hrmmm..

X-com apoc, look to it!

Turn based = old school turn based, based on speed, reaction times, etc.
Real time = Simultaneous turns taken.

but its still based on turns, either way. It's not based on user reflexes, or chaos, or logic. Just turns. Same with kotor.

 

[Volourn]

Hah VD. Just because I didn't press the space bar. :shock: :wink:

 

[protobob]

Hrmmm..

X-com apoc, look to it!

Turn based = old school turn based, based on speed, reaction times, etc.
Real time = Simultaneous turns taken.

but its still based on turns, either way. It's not based on user reflexes, or chaos, or logic. Just turns. Same with kotor.

The big point here is that turn-based gives the player more control. Saint Proverbious has said all this as well as it can be said many times so I am just going to shut-up.

 

[Quigs]

more control? sorry for the harsh language, but that sounds alot like marketing bullshit.

New Jersey is conveniently located adjacent to alabama!

Our product stands alone!

Turn based allows more time to think, as opposed to a STB game if there was no slow or pause options in an STB. But most games relying on turns or phases or rounds, or whatever adjective you feel like using, DO have a pause feature.

How much less control do you have in chess if your opponent moves exactly when you do? a 64th chance that you cant make that move?

 

[ichpokhudezh]

It's d20 phase based, that's true.. just doesn't play out like - say - Battleground games with their phased-based turns.

No it's not. d20 is still turn-based in each phase. (edit: imo)

Sure, it's not West End, and it's a little lose with d20's interpretation, but it's still a role-playing system. I don't understand why the insistance on it's not being one.

Try #3 in my list. If you got that (and it would seem you didn't) you would understand that KotOR is just a hack-and-slash in a extemely well-done setting resembling SW circa Ep4-6, very much so.

Actually ,since kissing Bastilla can affect the main story, I think you lost your point here.

Now, how does it affect the main story? The much-craved 'lover and apprentice' line?
I did like the sidequests and NPC's lines that weren't in the main dialog tree, though. It made the game narration enjoyable. The main story sucked though, the 'big twist' notwithstanding.

I was neither. It's your opinion, and your observations, but I'm telling you flatly that it's not remotely my experience.

Your experience is based your previous experience. Again, here goes that #3 reference. If you are familiar with general SW concepts, that's one experience. It would be totally another if you play KotOR to chop down obstacles and extract money.

Please give me an example where there would be a change in a game world based on your stat?

You said that stats only affected your combat abilty. I said wrong. Now you're changing the argument so that it's a weakness that they don't affect the overall world - but it's a weakness that all other RPGs have?

What else is there? Your interact with the game world basically in three aspects: dialog, skills application and combat. Maybe you can add logistics in some games but that's irrelevant in KotOR, really.
Skills are rather useless, and your stats do define your combat tactical pattern (not ability, that's different, mind you). So what else do you see your attributes applied to?

Persuade makes a huge difference in a lot of places.

Ok, say you have Dominate Mind. Mind naming some of those places? (SM case and Sith officer@Manaan do not count)

Combat skills are obvious.

There are no combat skills in KotOR. There's a term 'feat'. Which is slightly different, but that's beyond this discussion.
Most feats are combat-oriented.

Security skills are useful (though having the little droid my make that moot at times)... etc.

False. They are not. There's no lock/door/etc in the game you cannot bash but can open with PC's security skill. You play a role, right? Why would you char learn to pick locks if he/she can just bash open anything? As a jerk-off substitute?

There are uses for all the skills in the game. Doesn't mean that it's the most effective way to do it, but you can go that route.

See, if you're role-playing, you can do stuff that doesn't make sense to you. But you should not do stuff that wouldn't make sense to your character. That's the difference of RPG-experience to me.

Why are you demanding that it's not an RPG because you don't have freeform control over the ending when very very few games even have more than one ending regardless of what you do in the game?

The problem for me, the story does not have any 'memory'. It doesn't matter what role I play. A single choice is all that matters. The main story is linear otherwise . Which is quite opposite to what I find true and what is true in SW universe.

PS.
Thanks for the warm welcome, guys.
And for the Geneforge. More sleepless nights for me.

 

[protobob]

more control? sorry for the harsh language, but that sounds alot like marketing bullshit.

New Jersey is conveniently located adjacent to alabama!

Our product stands alone!

Turn based allows more time to think, as opposed to a STB game if there was no slow or pause options in an STB. But most games relying on turns or phases or rounds, or whatever adjective you feel like using, DO have a pause feature.

How much less control do you have in chess if your opponent moves exactly when you do? a 64th chance that you cant make that move?

Compare the detail of control between fallout and toee vs. BG games. That detail could be implemented in real-time, yes, but I'd be pausing so much I'd be asking myself what the point of making the game real-time was?

More time to think with more options = better tactical control.

 

[ichpokhudezh]

How much less control do you have in chess if your opponent moves exactly when you do? a 64th chance that you cant make that move?

Got to love the math in this one. 1/2 would have been a better guess

 

[TFVanguard]

The big point here is that turn-based gives the player more control. Saint Proverbious has said all this as well as it can be said many times so I am just going to shut-up.

Not being snarky, but how does 'pause and give orders' give you less control that 'stop and give orders one at a time'? It may give an illusion of more control, but the amount of commands you do, and how often you do them, seems about the same.

No it's not. d20 is still turn-based in each phase.

You can play d20 in phases, and there are rules provided for doing just that. Again, the argument I question is if you're playing with phases instead of flat turns- are you suddenly NOT playing an RPG?

Now, how does it affect the main story? The much-craved 'lover and apprentice' line?

You can turn her to the light side, snapping her out of it, a lot easier. You could also sudue her, kill her, or make her join you on the dark side. Quite a few options there, really.

I did like the sidequests and NPC's lines that weren't in the main dialog tree, though. It made the game narration enjoyable. The main story sucked though, the 'big twist' notwithstanding.

The end part of the main story was weak, though I think the rest was very solid. The final act was rushed, and it shows in parts. Endings were cut due to crunch time, so that's a fair complaint -- but it still doesn't make it not an RPG.

So what else do you see your attributes applied to?

Interactions with NPCs, as your charisma is a huge deal , particularly in Jolee's subquest, as well as recruiting members. Also, feats are effectively special skills, just of the 'on/off' variety.

False. They are not. There's no lock/door/etc in the game you cannot bash but can open with PC's security skill. You play a role, right? Why would you char learn to pick locks if he/she can just bash open anything? As a jerk-off substitute?

Because my character may not LIKE to bash everything in sight, and prefer a more subtle approach?

See, if you're role-playing, you can do stuff that doesn't make sense to you. But you should not do stuff that wouldn't make sense to your character. That's the difference of RPG-experience to me.

Which means there's a grand total of zero CRPGs out there.

 

[Quigs]

sorry ich, figured 64 minus 32 (all pieces on the board times two) times two (two players. i dunno, i suck at math) = 64.

 

[AlanC9]

Not being snarky, but how does 'pause and give orders' give you less control that 'stop and give orders one at a time'? It may give an illusion of more control, but the amount of commands you do, and how often you do them, seems about the same.

No, it's actually more control. Since the whole universe is holding still while that chesspiece moves, you can specify that piece's actions more precisely.

Example: melee combat. Order a character to attack a target in pauseable RT, and you don't have any control over the precise position the chracter will end up in, since that depends on the target's movements. In turnbased, you can pick the precise position to move to within the limits of your melee weapon's reach.

I still have no idea how a thread about KotOR got bogged down into defining the meaning of turn-based.

 

[Amerestatistic]

Kotor and discussions about the nature of TB combat go hand in hand due to the widely had misconception that Kotor's combat is TB.

It doesn't need an origin, it just happens.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The best example of why real time with pause is not turn based is a little Polish real time with pause game called Another War. In it, there are situations where your melee person will go to attack a person with a gun. Because the person with the gun wants a little range for his advantage against you, he'll try to get further away from you. Meanwhile, since your knife guy wants to stab the gun guy, he'll try to move closer to the gun guy. The end result, because everything is happenning simultaneously, you end up with a knife guy chasing an enemy that has a firearm around the room. That situation would never happen in turn based, ever, because turn based is sequential, not simultaneous.

 

[dipdipdip]

Booya!