KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Tweed]

I think You miss the point. Mysticism gives you THREE feats that you need anyway. If you want you can get the same feats that Reach would give You. It all comes to choosing if you want more:
a) better Sound Burst + Smite + Magic Stone
vs
b) better Bless + Bane + Prayer + Greater Prayer - at move speed and +2 concetration.
Which is better, as the previous discussion proved, can be disputed.
The 3x extended range feats are irrelevant in this calculation. The choice is not about feats here because 3=3, duh.

I still find weird the need of having all 3 extended range feats though. So many useful feats that can't be replicated by good positioning and so few feat picks - especially on Archmage.

Looking at it closer I see what you mean, but reach still gives you additional benefits besides those feats with enhanced to hit on magic stone which is a great spell that requires good to hit to make use of and reach automatically turns sound burst and smite from close to medium and medium to long as well as increasing their radius of effect. 10 to 1 half dozen to the other.

EDIT: My playstyle makes me lean towards having max range on every caster, I want to control as much of the battlefield as I possibly can.

 

[Oligryan]

As for Flux, I’ve never played a game outside MMOs where in combat healing is good action economy compared to presenting threats either in the form of damage or debilitation (or both) so it’s not something I’ve tested.

This may be the game where it’s finally worth it but I don’t see where adding three squares to your heals is worth giving up the whole reason you play the class (the free feats and dramatically upgraded spells from other domains).

Conversely I could see a Bishop with Flux, Devastation, Destruction, etc doing a lot of irresistible damage.

Playing a Bishop laser Jesus build became a lot more appealing to me after learning that the Flux, Life, Curing, and Healing domains all also apply to wands, scrolls, and even that one scimitar that lets you cast heal once per encounter as a SLA. It was, however, annoying to learn that you have to still have to roll for your Jesus lasers even if you're within regular touch range of an ally. You can even miss OoC, though that's likely not intended, and it doesn't lessen the fun of watching your Bishop obliterate any and all undead in their path.

 

[Tweed]

Another benefit of the kobold cleric is that high dex score, touch attacks usually work.

 

[Oligryan]

Kobolds are respectable at it, but Halflings are simply unmatched when it comes to bad touch. Doubly so for molester clerics.

 

[Desiderius]

You don't need all three extended range feats, but you feel the difference between having them and not having them.

The positioning point is moot - you use range to open up areas for your spells that aren't there without it whatever your positioning because something else is in the way. As for weaker enemies in the Pizarra fight: it's exactly the band of casters that can chuck long range spells at you that Improved Cone reaches that regular cone can't. That's the point. Same for killing the Goblin Chieftains, Shamans, and Rangers in the Gob fight before they can even get a spell off. Improved cone reaches across the water while regular doesn't.

Maybe because i had a psionic that used basic Cone and you had an upgraded Cone

No, you're missing my point. I've tested it with both so I get the difference. You haven't. I can tell. So yes I'm condescending on this topic exactly because I'm more experienced than you.

 

[Desiderius]

Unless you are drunk like myself, three posts responding to a single one are a bit excessive methinks.

There were three distinct topics raised. You opened a discussion and now you have several.

 

[Jermu]

I find it very annoying that when some spells say it has 100% chance to hit it can still miss because of touch attack roll

Regarding reach & other domains further discussion is probably not needed considering what it gives should be very easy to understand. There are shitload of great domains and I would rank reach in top5 easily

 

[Darth Canoli]

All this badmouthing about Reach. I found Reach incredibly helpful, but I always pair it with Flux. I want my cleric to be able to heal my guys from anywhere on the field or even hit foes with harm when need be. In my very first victory back in the 1.0 days I did flux with magic which was okay, but I feel saving the three range feats so I can spend them on stuff like smite, penetration and heal boosting is a better investment.

EDIT: I really haven't tried the other domains and I felt like the Bishop class was weak, I want those high level cleric spells.

Flux is amazing for the increased range of all the harm, inflict, cure and heal spells.
Really good paired with Curing, turning cure/mass and heal spells into a move action or Life/healing to get them all empowered for free.
Next time, I'm either picking a Bishop heal bot or a Bishop "paladin".

The cure ability from curing domain sucks though because it requires a ranged touch.

Another benefit of the kobold cleric is that high dex score, touch attacks usually work.

Dex Cleric is an heresy!
Cleric go full WIS/CON and is you want to improve ranged touch, just pick zen archery.

 

[Jvegi]

Building the party. I liked the bard from the tutorial, so I'm creating one. 14/14/12/13/8/18 on human. Looks wrong, but I'm confused by their combat prowess. What to do? I'm thinking about giving her a spear, so she can dish out accidental long range aoo damage from relative safety in medium armor.

Btw, fuck steam reviews, mixed at the moment. Lame crybabies. Although, the high price makes their bitching about the difficulty a bit understandable. Just a bit.

 

[Serus]

You don't need all three extended range feats, but you feel the difference between having them and not having them.

The positioning point is moot - you use range to open up areas for your spells that aren't there without it whatever your positioning because something else is in the way. As for weaker enemies in the Pizarra fight: it's exactly the band of casters that can chuck long range spells at you that Improved Cone reaches that regular cone can't. That's the point. Same for killing the Goblin Chieftains, Shamans, and Rangers in the Gob fight before they can even get a spell off. Improved cone reaches across the water while regular doesn't.

Maybe because i had a psionic that used basic Cone and you had an upgraded Cone

No, you're missing my point. I've tested it with both so I get the difference. You haven't. I can tell. So yes I'm condescending on this topic exactly because I'm more experienced than you.

It's always the Desderius-man who, when he is condescending or theoretical, is always right. When someone else is, it's wrong. In this particular case no one is theoretical and you are being an asshole. I played Pizarra fight very many times, just with one party. It's one of the funniest battles in the game.

I believe I understand your points, I certainly try to. You are not even trying to understand that, perhaps, the point you argue and the point I argue are not about the exact same thing and that yours is not the only one that matters. See if i got it right, ok?
Your claim: Upgraded Cone can reach more squares => damage a lot more enemies/casters => much easier to win => it's great.
My claim: It reaches only some additional secondary targets in few battle => only slightly easier => you can deal with the enemy anyway => not good.
As you can see it all hinges on very subjective notion "some vs a lot" and "slightly vs much". We'd have to agree to an objective measure. Are 2, 3, 5 or 7 additional enemies a lot? What is easier? Less turns? Less HP lost?. And all that on not taking into account additional variables like opportunity cost or number of battles in game where is is useful at all (=very few) - which are not part of your argument, i get it. But I don't ignore them completely.

BTW. What level were you when fighting those battles? Because my cone sure as hell wasn't strong enough to kill any goblin Shaman in one cast. Unless you followed up with a Wizard spell that had similar range and enough power? Then it's a playstyle to nuke everything in site. Maybe if you were able to kill them in one cast then it was truly worth it for you. However if you have to do it in 2 rounds then you are better disable them first and kill them after they disabled. Which you can't do with upgraded Cone because by that time your guys are in the way. Unless you have Cone Shaping too. Which, BTW, i find a much stronger feat, there are very few battles to use effectively 65 range but there many smaller battles to use shaping.
Additionally it was Enchanter for me, maybe on Archmage that would play different.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm not always right. I'm often wrong. That's why I test things to find out which is which.

 

[Jermu]

Building the party. I liked the bard from the tutorial, so I'm creating one. 14/14/14/13/8/18 on human. Looks wrong, but I'm confused by their combat prowess. What to do? I'm thinking about giving her a spear, so she can dish out accidental long range aoo damage from relative safety in medium armor.

Btw, fuck steam reviews, mixed at the moment. Lame crybabies. Although, the high price makes their bitching about the difficulty a bit understandable. Just a bit.

Im only using bard for songs since it is quite hard to make viable melee bard with high/maxed cha/int. But some melee potential should help out early game. Your attribute distribution seems good enough. I would probably lower dex/con for more str/int but that should work out also (my bard is elf with maxed int/cha and then some dex/con)
If you are playing lower difficulty than archmage (with more feats) then reach weapon or whatever should be fine when you got more feats to spare. Not sure about bows since I have never tried to make made decent bow build but I would probably test that.

 

[Jermu]

Your claim: Upgraded Cone can reach more squares => damage a lot more enemies/casters => much easier to win => it's great.
My claim: It reaches only some additional secondary targets in few battle => only slightly easier => you can deal with the enemy anyway => not good.
As you can see it all hinges on very subjective notion "some vs a lot" and "slightly vs much". We'd have to agree to an objective measure. Are 2, 3, 5 or 7 additional enemies a lot? What is easier? Less turns? Less HP lost?. And all that on not taking into account additional variables like opportunity cost or number of battles in game where is is useful at all (=very few) - which are not part of your argument, i get it. But I don't ignore them completely.

BTW. What level were you when fighting those battles? Because my cone sure as hell wasn't strong enough to kill any goblin Shaman in one cast.

lvl 7, playing with all archmage rules. Cone also hitting 1 other goblin which did not fit into screen

 

[Desiderius]

Bard doesn’t need INT. You eventually get enough activations from levels.

Drop INT and play Human (limited to 18 CHR) and you can be pretty good at all three action economies, though I mostly shoot and use weapon slot for Heal Scimitar. Full BAB and Human/Bonus Feats facilitate Rapid Shot ranged well.

Can cast effectively once you get +CHR instrument but Silence and Healing always good.

I don’t like Reach because Bard is one of few classes that can use Heavy Shield.

Alternatively can go Mantis with two-weapon and end up with infinite attacks. Musketeer relic Rapier perfect for this. I’d do this if you aren’t running Rogue.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Bard doesn’t need INT. You eventually get enough activations from levels.

Bard is a subpar fighter or archer, last time I played one, without any INT, I ran out of songs pretty often, then again, I played without additional campfires.

 

[Desiderius]

Bard doesn’t need INT. You eventually get enough activations from levels.

Bard is a subpar fighter or archer, last time I played one, without any INT, I ran out of songs pretty often, then again, I played without additional campfires.

Categorical statements. I cite specifics.

Be your own judge.

A song and a spell or two on hard fights, a song on the rest. Before you hit level 8 the songs don't do much so save activations for key spells. By then you'll have 8 activations or more without the INT. INT doesn't do enough.

Fighting/shooting effectively is about items as long as you've got the full BAB and Bonus Feats to support it. Bard does. Classes that specialize in fighting obv will be better but are often doing CMs or specialized tasks. Need competent fighters/shooters for back-up.

 

[anvi]

My Bard did pretty good damage by the later levels. But the ability to daze an entire room and use confusion and stuff was what I liked the most.

 

[Jermu]

New update https://store.steampowered.com/news...=103582791471607359&emgid=3213892775477955049

Hello everyone! Here's a big update for KotC 2. It's mainly a bug-fixing update, but there are new features too.

The new features include a tooltip informing you about the
number of possible targets in range
whenever you mouse over a spell icon, and a new shortcut key (Left Shift) to
buy five items
from any NPC in one go.

In the Module Editor, you can now create
party-defeated scripts
for any encounter where the story continues after the player is defeated in combat. This can be used when the party is split (see the duel with Jorad for instance) or for any scenario where the party members are captured rather than killed at the end of the fight.

Here is the complete list of changes in version
1.36
:

• When selecting spells during level-up, the tooltip and colour information indicating whether you have a scroll of a given spell will now take into account any
  scrolls placed inside containers
  .
  
• The level-up
  Hit Point roll
  will now be saved when you close a character's level-up window and then reopen it.
  
• When opening a treasure chest on the map, or some other container on the map, if the container is empty, the displayed label will include '
  (Empty)
  '. For example: << Crate (Empty) >>.
  
• When mousing over spells in the Character Sheet or in the spell quickbar, for most spells the tooltip will now let you know
  how many targets are within range of your spell
  .
  
• In the Inventory Screen, picking up an item from the floor or from some container on the map will no longer close your inventory's bag slots. Also, buying an item from someone will no longer close your bag slots.
  
• When trading with someone, you can now
  buy five items in one go
  using the Left Shift key. Either push Left Click and click on the item you want to buy, or mouse over the item you want to buy and push Left Shift + B. Also added a mention of this shortcut key in the help system.
  
• Losing the match against Jorad the Barbarian
  will not result in losing the game, if you have at least one surviving party member. Also, in the Module Editor you can now set a script that will control what happens after the party loses a battle.
  
• During combat, when mousing over a creature, the
  initiative list
  will automatically scroll to that creature so you can more easily see the creature's position in the initiative list.
  
• The game will now hide the square grid when displaying spell animations.
  
• Fixed a source of crashes when the party is split into two groups, if you have inactive recruited companions. Also, when the party is split or exploring special areas (sweltering, freezing or underwater areas), you won't be able to activate or deactivate characters in the Formation Screen.
  
• Fixed a source of crashes in combat.
  
• Fixed a couple of
  Steam/GOG achievements
  that would not trigger (Shadow Expert and Shadow Master).
  
• Improved the display of the expected effect of
  Break Enchantment
  and
  Greater Break Enchantment
  on characters and monsters.
  
• Fixed a bug when casting a single-target damage spell on a
  grappling target
  .
  
• Fixed the display of
  energy vulnerabilities
  in the Inventory Screen.
  
• Fixed a bug with the 50% energy vulnerability of Wizards who have completed the Wizard transformation.
  
• Fixed a bug with the 50% electricity resistance of Wizards with the Meril transformation.
  
• Fixed a bug with the AI when it's using the
  Bull Rush (Slide)
  action.
  
• Fixed a bug with the duration of the
  Nauseated
  conditions obtained from Stinking Cloud.
  
• Fixed a bug with characters getting the Entangled condition even though they have been Swallowed Whole.
  
• Fixed an AI issue with
  Grapple / Swallow Whole
  not being used as often as it should be according to AI settings and feats.
  
• Fixed a problem with the AI using potions of Greater Restoration and similar spells.
  
• Fixed an instance where the game would suggest a
  five-foot step + attack
  but the five-foot step would lead to a square from which the character couldn't attack the enemy.
  
• The
  spell quickbar
  will now remove spells you no longer have because you've used the Respec option to change your spell selection.
  
• Fixed a problem with player characters and monsters being able to take an action immediately after receiving the
  Quicksand
  condition.
  
• Fixed a problem with the damage dealt by the
  Vorpal
  weapon enchantment.
  
• Fixed a problem with the display of the
  expected critical-hit damage
  on monsters with some Damage Reduction.
  
• Fixed a problem with the display of psionic powers in the spell quickbar, and other issues with the quickbar.
  
• Fixed several issues with the display of the ranged-attack arrow path.
  
• Fixed a problem with the
  display of threat areas
  when the party leader has received the Dominated or Controlled condition.
  
• Fixed a display problem during combat when right clicking on a spell or SLA in the 'Activate Special' menu to open the help, and then closing the help window.
  
• Fixed a bug with Death Throes and other spells when they inflict more than 30 damage dice.
  
• When you resolve the Phantom Staircase puzzle, the
  Mysterious Scroll
  will now be removed from your inventory.
  
• Fixed Asharzaelle's missing
  Fear immunity
  as a Paladin with an Aura of Courage.
  
• Fixed problems with the
  Vanishing Sword quest
  when the party returns to the inn.
  
• Fixed a problem when duplicating the
  Tome of the Dead
  .
  
• Fixed a problem with the treasure chest of the Lizardmen near the Coven of the Four Crones.
  
• Fixed a dialogue when leaving the Soul Sucker Death Snare.
  
• Fixed a problem in the help entry for the Death Knight
  Life Drain
  power.
  
• Corrected the alignment of Dargil the Dwarf in Chapter 4.
  
• Fixed a broken link in the description of Psionic Fog.
  
• Improved the description of the spell
  Mass True Strike
  .
  
• Fixed an issue in the help entry for the feat
  Combat Reflexes
  .
  
• Fixed an issue with the spell
  Mass Blur
  .
  
• Improved the descriptions of the feats White Wizard Improved Widen, Red Wizard Improved Empower, Red Wizard Improved Maximise, Green Wizard Improved Widen and Blue Wizard Improved Widen to clarify that you still need to have the corresponding metamagic feat in order to receive the benefit.
  
• Fixed a bug in the macOS version in the game options for skipping the animation of Scorching Ray and Produce Flame.

Thank You, Valiant Knights And Wise Wizards of the Realm! Enjoy!

 

[Oligryan]

I'm all for thinking man bards. Bards are too MAD and their SLAs and feats are too good to sacrifice just to have a somewhat better but still subpar martial or (even worse) archer.

Just give them weapon finesse and some +dam rings IMO. Maybe TWF if you really, really need a real frontliner. I'd happily dump STR if it could somehow get me more song uses or higher DCs.

 

[Desiderius]

My Bard is a thinking man Bard. The reason I have him along is for dialogues and songs and spells.

Hurr-durr subpar makes no sense since you’re comparing it to classes that have none of those things if you’re doing that. Even if you jack INT way up you’re never getting enough activations to fill even half your action economy.

For the other half you’ve got full BAB, Bonus Feats, and proficiencies. If you suck that bad at it that’s on you not the class. Trading three activations for +3 initiative, AC, and AB on each attack (you’ll be making a lot more than three of those) is a good deal.

 

[Desiderius]

BTW, if you’re having trouble with ranged make sure you have Far Shot Feat or Distance enchant on Bow. Makes a big difference.

 

[Jvegi]

Aren't dc for songs based purely on charisma? Any crucial feats for bards that require high intelligence? Perhaps 13 is too much? I wish I had the rulset printed.

As for the shield, it is tempting but the long range aoo's felt very useful in the tutorial, so I think I'll go with that. Perhaps I'll change my mind after creating more party members.

 

[Oligryan]

Trading three activations for +3 initiative, AC, and AB on each attack (you’ll be making a lot more than three of those) is a good deal.

And like I said, I disagree. Bard spells swing encounters while no matter how you build your Bard, it will never come within even a country mile of what a Gladiator, Samurai, et cetera can output. I'd rather have more activations available than those stats. The same way I'm not making 20 STR Bishops and Druids.
I don't have trouble with ranged. I have issue with the amount of feats it involves.

If you suck that bad at it that’s on you not the class.

Unless Pierre throws in a Grand Archmage or an Arch-iermage difficulty to test it against, I'd say my method of building Bards is viable and fine.
Or it could be that I'm just a good enough player to compensate. Either is fine with me, really.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Categorical statements. I cite specifics.

Be your own judge.

A song and a spell or two on hard fights, a song on the rest. Before you hit level 8 the songs don't do much so save activations for key spells. By then you'll have 8 activations or more without the INT. INT doesn't do enough.

Fighting/shooting effectively is about items as long as you've got the full BAB and Bonus Feats to support it. Bard does. Classes that specialize in fighting obv will be better but are often doing CMs or specialized tasks. Need competent fighters/shooters for back-up.

I thought it was obvious.
In fact, seems like it's obvious for everyone but you.
Well Oligryan spelled it.

The only reason a more martial build would be alright for a bard would be if you only go with one fighter and you plan to use the bard as your second one.
I'm not saying it's a very good plan but if the other 4 (and eventually companions) are well built pure casters, it's good enough.

 

[Jvegi]

Fire Salamander for a cleric seems like a waste with their low ApR. I think I'll do it though. The domains all looks so good. I took reach and improved turning.

At that pace, I'll finish the game just before KotC3 comes out.