KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Jaklon]

That's more or less what is being asked for ITT.

Sure...and how much did it cost to make those games? Still hundreds of thousands in art, in 80s dollars. It doesn't really cost much more to make a fallout sprite than it does to make a gold box sprite. t's still quite time consuming.

I realize overlyliteralness is a problem for internet people, but have some common sense and actually read what I post.

If you have 100 creatures that need sprites, 50 dungeons that need some kind of artwork, the total volume is a lot. You are talking hundreds of thousands to get anything at all, if you actually pay the people who do the work. A million to get something decent that looks like a professional game.

If you could take 10,000 dollars and make a good game, everyone would fucking do it. There would be 500 games like KOTC.

Obviously you have a brain unlike jaesun and scrooge the monkey-brained semihumans, you are just being too literal and also assuming indie = guys working for free. If you find some artists to work for free who actually do something and don't require two hours of management and drama to do one hour of work, let me know.

 

[Excidium II]

Nobody is saying working for free either. But that your costs aren't representative.

Sure...and how much did it cost to make those games? Still hundreds of thousands in art, in 80s dollars. It doesn't really cost much more to make a fallout sprite than it does to make a gold box sprite. t's still quite time consuming.

I lol'd.

Goldbox sprites are just dots on a 32x32 bitmap for christ's sake. To make a Fallout sprite was a process that involved various professionals, from concept to 3d modelling the critter to making the sprites and animations.

 

[Excidium II]

Also 100 creatures and 50 dungeon tilesets? Are you just being cheeky at this point?

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Unless it's at those levels or close, people will complain.

KoTC 1 looked absolutely fine and I doubt that it costed 1 million dollars. And people are saying that Ultima style KoTC 1 graphic is better than this token thing. What the hell is your point and who is complaining that unless it Fallout level people will complain?

 

[Jaklon]

Nobody is saying working for free either. But that your costs aren't representative.


I lol'd.

Goldbox sprites are just dots on a 32x32 bitmap for christ's sake. To make a Fallout sprite was a process that involved various professionals, from concept to 3d modelling the critter to making the sprites and animations.

You just don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Excidium II]

You're the one who is completely clueless.

 

[Jaklon]

KoTC 1 looked absolutely fine and I doubt that it costed 1 million dollars. And people are saying that Ultima style KoTC 1 graphic is better than this token thing. What the hell is your point and who is complaining that unless it Fallout level people will complain?

Well shit for brains, how much do you think it would cost a game company to make kotc. If you said under a million dollars you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Of course if everyone works for free it costs nothing, but in reality you cannot expect people to do that on a permanent basis who the fuck would think.

I am sure he spent at least a year on the art, and much more on the programming. And to get art that isn't complete shit you'd have to pay much much more and take more time. Gold box has way more sprites than kotc, and fucking around with that shit takes the same time as with complicated once.

Gold box also showed off different weapon types and shit, which kotc did not. That shit does not happen automatically.

Now shut your fucking mouth before speaking on things you don't know a fucking thing about.

 

[Jaklon]

You're the one who is completely clueless.

Ask yourself how much money it could cost to make KOTC if a company like activision or inXile or obshitian made it. I mean made it exactly as is, not some AAA version.

If you said less than a million you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

I've worked on hundreds of million dollar projects and some that were hundreds of millions. You think you can make a game like that for 25K or even 250k then go ahead and do it. If it could be done everyone on the fucking forums would have done it by now.

 

[Excidium II]

Gold box also showed off different weapon types and shit, which kotc did not. That shit does not happen automatically.

it's just like 20 different pixels with a different color you dunce. An artist could make all those sprites in an evening, nowdays an amateur with ms paint could. You should go watch this guy's stream when it's live to see how fast he makes much more detailed assets https://www.youtube.com/user/FrankieSmileShow/

Pool of Radiance was in development for less than an year and had less than a handful of artists and you want to convince me it cost hundreds of thousands of 1980 dollars JUST for the art? Even then, most of the effort in the art went into the pictures that show in game view outside of combat, which were animated and very detailed for the time.

You're the one who is completely clueless.

Ask yourself how much money it could cost to make KOTC if a company like activision or inXile or obshitian made it. I mean made it exactly as is, not some AAA version.

If you said less than a million you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

The cost is human resources. It's more expensive to produce those for those companies because the time of their developers is expensive (highly experienced + high living cost area).

 

[Roqua]

If I knew it was going to be this kind of party I'd have stuck my dick in the mashed potatoes too.

 

[Excidium II]

I've worked on hundreds of million dollar projects and some that were hundreds of millions. You think you can make a game like that for 25K or even 250k then go ahead and do it. If it could be done everyone on the fucking forums would have done it by now.

Nobody does it because nobody sane is going to spend their time making an indie CRPG when they could be playing a CRPG or making a whole lot more money working on something else. Most people who do engage in this madness are passionate nerds who are k with living in poverty or work only on their free hours so their costs are from cheap to effectively free, only spending to comission what they can't do themselves. That's why comparisons with AAA developers working for competitive wages is stupid in the first place.

And yes, I could with 25k with how the dollar is right now. Send me the funds.

 

[Jaklon]

it's just like 20 different pixels with a different color you dunce. An artist could make all those sprites in an evening, nowdays an amateur with ms paint could. You should go watch this guy's stream when it's live to see how fast he makes much more detailed assets https://www.youtube.com/user/FrankieSmileShow/

Pure bullshit. Now what about how every sprite in pool of radiance has to show ever possible weapon and how everything has to go together.

Sure any dumbfuck can make some really shitty drawings pretty quick. Doing 2d animations, making maps and levels, not so much. Even the shittiest drawings will take a lot of time to actually get looking right to animate, into the game engine, the right size and so on.

Pool of Radiance was in development for less than an year and had less than a handful of artists and you want to convince me it cost hundreds of thousands of 1980 dollars JUST for the art? Even then, most of the effort in the art went into the pictures that show in game view outside of combat, which were animated and very detailed for the time.

I said any game in the last 25 years will cost lots of money, but it would still cost a lot to make pool of radiance. AT LEAST a million dollars.

The game was created on Apple II and Commodore 64 computers, taking one year with a team of thirty-five people.[3]

THIRTY FIVE MAN YEARS Probably much more in modern terms.

12 artists listed on moby games as well. Plus "westwood associates" which probably means contracted out shit work.

The cost is human resources. It's more expensive to produce those for those companies because the time of their developers is expensive (highly experienced + high living cost area).

Exactly. It's "free" when indies do it. The problem is no one will do the "free" work any more so money is required.

Cost of living is cheap in china but where are the games? It's not as easy as it looks and not many people can do it, let alone do it well. If they could we would see fifty AAA+ games made in brazil but we never will. They just get some of the shittier artwork, that's it.

Anyway obviously there's no point to talk to you, if you are not a very experienced programmer then you should not even be speaking on this subject. You have no idea what you are gabbing about.

 

[Excidium II]

If they could we would see fifty AAA+ games made in brazil but we never will. They just get some of the shittier artwork, that's it.

There's none because game development is bottom of the barrel here. Only indies you don't know were made by brazilians and mobile games you never heard about. There's no industry like in other parts of the world.

THIRTY FIVE MAN YEARS Probably much more in modern terms.

12 artists listed on moby games as well. Plus "westwood associates" which probably means contracted out shit work.

12 artists because there were various releases of the game for every computer platform. Don't trust mobygames credits.

I said any game in the last 25 years will cost lots of money, but it would still cost a lot to make pool of radiance. AT LEAST a million dollars.

No. For fuck's sake. Not even writing it from scratch let alone using the middleware available today.

Cost of living is cheap in china but where are the games?

On android app store and chink lan cafe computers. Because their game industry is about mobile games and F2P mp games made by chinks for chinks.

You have no idea what you are gabbing about.

That's you who don't know shit.

 

[Roguey]

Oh hey actual numbers https://www.somethingclassic.net/weekly-content-blog-19-budgeting-the-art-costs-of-an-rpg-pt-3/

Speaking of cost, we’re at a point in our project where it’s clear what the total art cost is going to be. Using our outsourcing costs and my own time converted to a dollar amount our art budget falls in the $15,000-20,000 range. Which may be a little surprising to some considering that Shadows of Adam is a game whose scope is reasonable. We’ll have about 12-18 hours of legitimate game play over 5 major dungeons. But the truth of the matter is that making an RPG is extremely costly in terms of the art resources needed to generate hours of game play. In our case it costs about $1000 to make 1 hour of game play. And this is a low resolution game with a highly-polished, but easy to make style of art. If your game is high resolution, has a hard to replicate aesthetic, or time intensive animation, the costs go up exponentially— 8bit RPG $200/hr of gameplay, 16bit $1000/hr, HD $10,000/hr. These are just indie costs for relatively small teams, a full fledged game studio would incur far greater costs than that. When you decide to tackle the art for an indie RPG know that you are going to either be paying for it out of pocket or in blood, sweat, and tears. Even a modest game like our own will have taken over 500 man-hours to create all of the art for. If you’re a one-man/woman-show doing everything on your own, the project could realistically take over 2000 of your own hours.

Millyuns and millyuns of dollars

Granted that is quite a lot for a one-person operation. I suppose this is a case where a crowdfunding campaign for better art could be a useful venture but I vaguely remember Pierre the extreme libertarian scoffing at such notions.

 

[Jaklon]

Oh hey actual numbers https://www.somethingclassic.net/weekly-content-blog-19-budgeting-the-art-costs-of-an-rpg-pt-3/



Millyuns and millyuns of dollars

Granted that is quite a lot for a one-person operation. I suppose this is a case where a crowdfunding campaign for better art could be a useful venture but I vaguely remember Pierre the extreme libertarian scoffing at such notions.

Oh I get it now, you are actually, literally mentally retarded. Like Scrooge and Jaesun our mongoloid moderators.

First off, does that really look like the same quality level as a professional game from the 90s onward?

This looks like it is literally an RPG maker project.... Unplayable. If you want something that's not utter garbage and looks professional it takes a lot of money, even using chinese slave laborers and huehuers.

Anyway...I give up. We have a lot of deeply stupid people on this site. I will have to accept that, I guess.

 

[Roguey]

It's more aesthetically pleasing than Fantasy World Engine and Knights of the Chalice.

 

[Mortmal]

It's more aesthetically pleasing than Fantasy World Engine and Knights of the Chalice.

I am not so sure,some of the concept art for the different class is just ok, most is awful .It doesnt bode well for the tokens. Look class by class : http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/FWE/Pages/FWE_Title.htm

I think its likely a friend doing the art for free and he cant say no or something like this.I prefer early spiderweb games look than that.


Another one man indie art exemple:

So i think its possible to do good without millions.

 

[felipepepe]

Underworld is a great example, because he used absolutely horrid stock art at first:

Then we went into this very same debate and he ended up hiring a Chinese guy who did some great stuff. And I don't think he had a budget of MILLIONS for that.

Anyway, still think Pierre intends to make that art easily moddable, so who cares. I'll do a mod myself replacing all that art if the game's any good.

 

[Jaklon]

Let me summarize again.

1. Pog shit is admittedly unacceptable, even to me who bought kotc twice.
1a. Even high quality pog shit is unacceptable. Paying 5k to license some better pogs will probably gain exactly zero new customers.

2. Some RPG maker shit for $40,000 is almost WORSE than the pog shit. You will get probably a handful of customers you would not already have gotten. 40k is probably more sales than the original even made from what he says!

3. Even gold box shit is unacceptable to most people. Gold box shit cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to make, and would cost the same for you to do it yourself except the result will be much shittier.

4. To make something decent like an early 90s game is going to cost you around a million bucks in artwork. I mean something like jagged alliance, but not quite as good. That is about the minimum most RPG fans will accept in graphics.

5. To make something as good as fallout in 2d is going to cost many millions today. This is probably the minimum that a modern console fag will possibly accept.

6. With the same money as a big studio a little studio that can actually finish a game (a rarity) can make the same or better game, so why do faggots give double fine and harebrain money that they may as well throw in the fire instead of guys like this? Sure indies often do a lot of work for "free" but there is no "free" artist to do all the work. So either volunteer, gib monies, or shut the fuck up.

 

[Darth Roxor]

everything is unacceptable

just stop making games altogether

 

[Talby]

I never got around to playing the original game because it's not on Steam or GOG, but it was entertaining reading about this insane lolbertardian holding the sequel hostage for the sake of his garbage fire RTS game.

At least the sequel looks like it was worth the wait though. Chess has better graphics than this.

 

[almondblight]

He also said that GOG wanted to put up KotC, but he wouldn't let them because he wanted them to put up his RTS instead.

 

[Dorateen]

And yes, I could with 25k with how the dollar is right now. Send me the funds.

Indiegogo campaign for Excidium incoming.

 

[Talby]

Sounds like a great RPG.

Excidium: Codex of Purgatory

 

[Roguey]

$40,000:

Hundreds of thousands:

indeed