Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[2house2fly]

If he does it would be a mega disaster.

I think Deadfire broke him. You need a certain amount of cockiness to be able to design. Deadfire failed even though (he thinks) he did everything right and (he observes) it got good reviews and pretty positive player feedback too. How is he going to be able to design anything with that doubt continuously eating away at him? If he's ever to make another game again, he really will need to somehow ditch his whole schtick about trying to understand his 'customers' and make a 'product' that 'meets their wishes,' and make that motherfucking FYSMDJSDG thingy.

He spent 6 years making 2 games he didn't want to in a genre he doesn't enjoy, and altogether too many decisions were made based on what "people" would probably like. You can't anticipate people's tastes, and you can't bank on commercial appeal to result in commercial success- especially nowadays, with the market orders of magnitude more saturated than ever before. If you try to please the crowd with something that ends up sinking without a trace then you've wasted your time; if you do the best work you can based on your own tastes and wants, and make decisions you're prepared to stand behind, then it might still sink without trace but at least you've done something you're proud of.

I don't know if it's just rumor but Sawyer's apparently working on something specific at Obsidian. I hope it's something he wants to do and that he works on it passionately, and if someone is making a Pillars 3 I hope they're excited to make it and have a vision for what they want to do with it.

Fucking hell.

 

[Wulfric Pinewood]

These "Pillars" games are like junk food , it is tasty for some time but you can't eat this crap everyday.

Major mistake was lack of focus on already great game which was Tyranny [superior to both pillars of crap ] and not building further on this amazing setting, Pillars were kind of "empty" , "flat" , forced another fantasy cliche without enough flavour. It plays good for a moment but for fuck sake, how long you can attend that you are still teenager .

Good crpg should have "SOMETHING" unique, not only mechanics, stats . I hope we will get Tyranny 2 on a scale of both Pillars games and on modern engine. Enough of grave fuck nostalgia zombies, isometric games are passe enough, Disco Elysium is great as an adventure game for autistic people with too much time but modern player need more real world on the screen, not some kind of top down table again. THESE TIMES ARE OVER, they were good in times of Baldur's or Fallouts/Arcanum , for now it is okay only in Diablo like games. Enough is enough, stop fucking with our nostalgia vibes, you lazy Dev fucks. Im bored with another and another isometric or pixelated crap , released every month and beyond of scale bored with another "spiritual successors" of another crpg gems.

 

[ItsChon]

These "Pillars" games are like junk food , it is tasty for some time but you can't eat this crap everyday.

Major mistake was lack of focus on already great game which was Tyranny [superior to both pillars of crap ] and not building further on this amazing setting, Pillars were kind of "empty" , "flat" , forced another fantasy cliche without enough flavour. It plays good for a moment but for fuck sake, how long you can attend that you are still teenager .

Good crpg should have "SOMETHING" unique, not only mechanics, stats . I hope we will Tyranny 2 on scale of both Pillars games and on modern engine. Enough of grave fuck nostalgia zombies, isometric games are passe enough, Disco Elysium is great but it what modern player needs is more real world on the screen, not some kind of top down table again. THESE TIMES ARE OVER, they were good in times of Baldur's or Fallouts/Arcanum , for now it is okay only in Diablo like games. Enough is enough, stop fucking with our nostalgia vibes, you lazy Dev fucks. Im bored with another and another isometric or pixelated crap , released every month and beyond of scale bored with another "spiritual successors" of another crpg gems.

Kill yourself.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

These "Pillars" games are like junk food , it is tasty for some time but you can't eat this crap everyday.

Major mistake was lack of focus on already great game which was Tyranny [superior to both pillars of crap ] and not building further on this amazing setting, Pillars were kind of "empty" , "flat" , forced another fantasy cliche without enough flavour. It plays good for a moment but for fuck sake, how long you can attend that you are still teenager .

Good crpg should have "SOMETHING" unique, not only mechanics, stats . I hope we will get Tyranny 2 on a scale of both Pillars games and on modern engine. Enough of grave fuck nostalgia zombies, isometric games are passe enough, Disco Elysium is great as an adventure game for autistic people with too much time but modern player need more real world on the screen, not some kind of top down table again. THESE TIMES ARE OVER, they were good in times of Baldur's or Fallouts/Arcanum , for now it is okay only in Diablo like games. Enough is enough, stop fucking with our nostalgia vibes, you lazy Dev fucks. Im bored with another and another isometric or pixelated crap , released every month and beyond of scale bored with another "spiritual successors" of another crpg gems.

Tyranny is shit, IE is the only RPG engine that deserves to live. Questions?

 

[axedice]

What did Pathfinder do right to become the staple isometric RPG we've all been craving for after all these years?

 

[ItsChon]

become the staple isometric RPG

Speak for yourself boy. Underrail is the superior RPG by far, and the old IE games are still better than what we got with PF:K.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Pathfinder

No, not another gaem with spiders SPIDERS GIANT SPIDERS FOR FUCK'S SAKE

 

[Wunderbar]

Pathfinder

No, not another gaem with spiders SPIDERS GIANT SPIDERS FOR FUCK'S SAKE

Generic-Giant-Spider

 

[Nano]

and the old IE games are still better than what we got with PF:K.

Kingmaker has a turn-based combat mod, which automatically makes it better than Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

and the old IE games are still better than what we got with PF:K.

Kingmaker has a turn-based combat mod, which automatically makes it better than Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.

oh dear sir you too like this chezz gaem of ours

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Think of any great high fantasy game, think of it now without any giant spiders. Pretty SHIT, right? Feels like it's MISSING something, huh?

Baldur's Gate 1 for example, Cloakwood, where are the eight leggers? Where the webspinners at? It's a desolate zone. What will you replace me with? BANDITS? Hahaha, yeah, you haven't killed THAT two hundred times before. Hobgoblins? Oh please. I'm a monster manual staple.

Have you ever SEEN game design meetings? The checklist is always: Mechanics/Systems, Classes, Side Content, Giant Spiders. In that order. Face it, punk, I'm here to stay. Come into my lair, or my forest, or my swamp, collect your BEEFY 300 xp, and shaddup. I've met elven women with bigger BALLS than you arachnophobes.

Trying to run me out of a job, nigga fuk u. Been doing this since Tolkien days.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Think of any great high fantasy game, think of it now without any giant spiders. Pretty SHIT, right? Feels like it's MISSING something, huh?

Baldur's Gate 1 for example, Cloakwood, where are the eight leggers? Where the webspinners at? It's a desolate zone. What will you replace me with? BANDITS? Hahaha, yeah, you haven't killed THAT two hundred times before. Hobgoblins? Oh please. I'm a monster manual staple.

Have you ever SEEN game design meetings? The checklist is always: Mechanics/Systems, Classes, Side Content, Giant Spiders. In that order. Face it, punk, I'm here to stay. Come into my lair, or my forest, or my swamp, collect your BEEFY 300 xp, and shaddup. I've met elven women with bigger BALLS than you arachnophobes.

Trying to run me out of a job, nigga fuk u. Been doing this since Tolkien days.

Spoiler

 

[Riddler]

Spent way too much time reading through the PC Gamer comments on this story. I was surprised by how many "normals" said they were turned off by the pirate setting.

What article?

 

[DalekFlay]

Spent way too much time reading through the PC Gamer comments on this story. I was surprised by how many "normals" said they were turned off by the pirate setting.

What article?

https://www.pcgamer.com/obsidian-wi...llars-of-eternity-before-making-a-third-game/

Lots of new comments since then, can't say all the pirate hate is at the top still.

 

[fantadomat]

Think of any great high fantasy game, think of it now without any giant spiders. Pretty SHIT, right? Feels like it's MISSING something, huh?

Baldur's Gate 1 for example, Cloakwood, where are the eight leggers? Where the webspinners at? It's a desolate zone. What will you replace me with? BANDITS? Hahaha, yeah, you haven't killed THAT two hundred times before. Hobgoblins? Oh please. I'm a monster manual staple.

Have you ever SEEN game design meetings? The checklist is always: Mechanics/Systems, Classes, Side Content, Giant Spiders. In that order. Face it, punk, I'm here to stay. Come into my lair, or my forest, or my swamp, collect your BEEFY 300 xp, and shaddup. I've met elven women with bigger BALLS than you arachnophobes.

Trying to run me out of a job, nigga fuk u. Been doing this since Tolkien days.

It is fun squishing you under my boot,my seven legged friend!

 

[Kliwer]

There are a lot of good explanations of Pillars failure in this thread. For me the main reason why this games are so… undefined is that developers tried to push IWD, BG and PST into just one game. There is nothing wrong with trying to mimic and improve old games, however mixing totally different styles can’t be good.

What’s the game about? Is it about merry adventuring in a big fantasy world? Is it about epic combat with epic monsters? Is it about cheese fantasy philosophical dilemmas? Pillars are all this things. And none of them.

If you are creating “typical fantasy world” with knights, wizards etc. make it feels like “typical fantasy world”. In Pillars we have received, for example, dwarves who are not very dwarf-like (mountain dwarves are neutered from all distinctive features; boreal dwarves are just Eskimos). And if you are making a more realistic world do not include dwarves at all, because they do not fit to this setting.


In Poland we have a proverb: catching too many magpies by the tail. As a final result: you will finish with none magpie. And it is the Pillars case.

 

[JarlFrank]

I actually like Deadfire more than the first game. The setting is more interesting (archipelago with islanders and colonizers, much cooler vibe than the first game's ultra-generic fantasy), systems have been refined so that combat is at least somewhat fun - and turn based mode exists now which improves it further.

But no matter how much of an improvement it is, sequels always tend to sell less than the first game unless they're part of a well-established franchise. And when the first game was a thoroughly mediocre experience that didn't grab its players... yeah, it's obvious why Deadfire failed. Especially since it repeats some of the first game's sins, such as a superfluous and lame beginning and a schizophrenic story that forces you to go after some gods you have no reason to care about, while the cool faction-based content is relegated to sidequests. The player never has any real reason to follow the EPIC main quest other than the game tells him to.

Branding it as a sequel might have been a bad decision. Would have worked better as a spinoff title or something. Pillars: Deadfire, instead of Pillars of Eternity 2. Or Tales of Eora: Deadfire, whatever. The main failure of the game's story is that it awkwardly forces itself to be a direct continuation of the first game's story, which nobody cared about in the first place.

The main difference between Divinity Original Sin and PoE is:
D:OS - "The combat was pretty fun and I played co-op with my wife which we both enjoyed, the sequel promises more of the same fun area-effect based combat system and co-op, but with a larger world, better writing, and better mod-tools and a multiplayer DM mode. Yeah, that sounds cool! I'll totally pick that sequel up!"
PoE - "Eh, I guess it was all right but nothing special. Wasn't as much fun as Baldur's Gate 2. There were other RPGs released that year I enjoyed more. It wasn't a terrible game but it didn't really grip me either. Oh, the sequel is a direct continuation of the first game's story, like Mass Effect 2 was to Mass Effect, and you can import your old save to see what your choices did? Eh, I didn't finish the first game though. I guess I'll skip this sequel, maybe pick it up on a 50% off sale."

First game is meh. Didn't attract a large fanbase. Most players thought it was ok but not breathtaking. Direct story-continuing sequel with previous save imports, which makes people think it's important to finish the first game if you want to understand the story. This intimidates newcomers to the series and puts them off buying it. The result? Few people who are new to the series decide to jump in, and a lot of old players who quit the first game halfway through because it was too mediocre don't bother with the sequel.

PoE2 was damned before it even got released.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Spent way too much time reading through the PC Gamer comments on this story. I was surprised by how many "normals" said they were turned off by the pirate setting.

 

[hexer]

First game is meh. Didn't attract a large fanbase. Most players thought it was ok but not breathtaking. Direct story-continuing sequel with previous save imports, which makes people think it's important to finish the first game if you want to understand the story. This intimidates newcomers to the series and puts them off buying it. The result? Few people who are new to the series decide to jump in, and a lot of old players who quit the first game halfway through because it was too mediocre don't bother with the sequel.

It's funny to think Sawyer couldn't bother to check Steam achievements percentages to see if a sequel is worth it.
I know some people gave up on the game once they reached Defiance Bay because in-game motivation was lacking.

BTW who was the lead writer for PoE1 and PoE2?
I think those people don't know how to write a story hook for a brave new fantastic world

 

[Heroic Liberator]

On an unrelated note, am I the only one that doesn't enjoy the sort of map employed by Deadfire? Alright in terms of exploration on the first run, but on subsequent ones you have to remember where is this or that island.

I know about that particular blessing that starts the game with the map explored, but from what I remember there is no distinction on the map between explored and not explored islands, so you end up missing a lot of content (while on a normal playthrough you're kind of forced to explore everything you discover so that you don't forget about visiting them once you move on.)

 

[Atchodas]

Neketaka glorified fetch quest

 

[Dishonoredbr]

Oh, the sequel is a direct continuation of the first game's story, like Mass Effect 2 was to Mass Effect, and you can import your old save to see what your choices did? Eh, I didn't finish the first game though. I guess I'll skip this sequel, maybe pick it up on a 50% off sale."

Part that made me drop Deadfire , it was the fact that i didn't finished POE1 and so i felt totally out of the loop when they brought up things from POE1.. What Eder joined a cult or whatever? Aloth is now leader of Leaden whatever? Feels strange and they should've made a new protagonist entire new cast of characters too.

Mass Effect 1 was painful to play , but at least the story was nice enough then i've Mass Effect 2 that improves on gameplay and most aspect asides writting (other than the companions).

POE1 is legit boring to play how outdated it feels.. Deadfire was a massive improvement in everyway then the massive ''open world'' that feel like a slog to travel and find quests. I like to explore dungeons and talk with NPCs but most of my time is traveling back and forth to find my next objective and where to go. Also The Ship part is trash, it should've worked like POE1 , throw that Text adventure part between travels that's legit good and 100% better than deadfire world map with nothing to find other than god damn Fruits and water. But keep the sin

 

[jungl]

Obsidian still following biowares old model in how to do a rpg. Companions, cities, factions how they play out in crpgs has gone stale. They would been far better off making pillars turn based game similiar to growlanser 3 or ff tactics. Making a icewind dale version of pillars if they want to keep it real time.

Cities, factions, companions fitted organically to baldurs gate 2. It doesn't mean it works or it is a good idea to implement them in your rpg.

 

[AW8]

BTW who was the lead writer for PoE1 and PoE2?
I think those people don't know how to write a story hook for a brave new fantastic world

Fenstermaker for the first game and Patel + Sawyer for the second, I think. Those are listed as "Narrative Design Lead" in the credits.

 

[Atchodas]

icewind dale version of pillars if they want to keep it real time.

there was a time when I thought this would be good idea but now when I think about it all I see is hordes of trash mobs that are stuck behind each other cuz of pathfinding