Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Heroic Liberator]

It was less of a pirate setting and more of a colonial setting featuring pirates (namely the Principi) and - depending on your view - mediocre to shit ship mechanics, particularly in terms of naval combat.

It's hard to imagine what they were thinking considering a 3D naval combat template for Unity costs $75.
FFS I'd probably have more fun if they implemented naval combat in the form of a Battleship game

They weren't.

 

[Atchodas]

Writing seems to me the fastest part of game development

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Everyone is obsessing about PK outselling PoE, but the question is by how much. Is it 10% more, 20% more? If it's just that, there probably is still a ceiling for this type of game that RtWP cannot cross.

Sawyer's sense of the market was proven accurate by the smashing success of DOS. His mistake is settling for half-measures of trying to tinker with what is ultimately a cancerous combat system even in the best implementations, instead ofgiving it a TB chemotherapy.

this is pretty hilarious since the EXACT opposite argument used to be made for why every RPG had be made as an action or RtWP game starting around 1998.

 

[Sailor Woedica]

The best thing about this news is that Pillars of Eternity 3 will definitely be a first person rpg!

ok zoomer

 

[turkishronin]

Writing is good, but actual gameplay is horrible.

Many such cases!

 

[Verylittlefishes]

I think Josh watched Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising.

There was a phrase here, "everything is better with pirates".

No, it is not. As a deadfire backer I say, it is not. Fuck you, Josh. Fuck you, Obsidian. PoE 2 is an abomination. It is worse than nazi. Fuck you and your pirates, ekera!

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I'm wondering, what exactly carried DOS 2 into massive sales and absolute stardom among even casual gamers?

• Was it coop? First game had it also.
• Was it the combat system or gameplay in general? Similar to the first game, and in a lot of cases worse.
• Was it the graphics? It looks good, but DOS 1 looked pretty similar.
• Was it the writing and plot? Uh, Larian has never been very good at this, so I think not.
• Was it the difficulty? I don't think so, and if anything I think the game would still be pretty hard for casual players who have never played a TB game before.
• Was it the full VO? Well. It surely helped, but by all means it doesn't look like this carries a game to massive sales on its own, as Deadfire proved.

I still don't know what exactly happened with DOS 2. Obsidian clearly tried to replicate it, but I don't think they even understood whatever it was that Larian did so well when marketing it, so their attempt failed.

I too am a bit fascinated by it. I have come to think that there is just something about the colors, the silly cartoon look, the co-op play, the goofy humor, etc that appeals to the 'Critical Role', Comicon, low attention span mass that makes up the current gaming world. I don't know if on purpose or by accident, but they seem to hit right in the target area of this group and got them all riled up for whatever reason. It does not seem any better than the first game to me. I could not play either one for very long. But they really seem to know this audience or something.

 

[Atchodas]

Fuck you and your pirates, ekera!

Ekera's (niggers of Deadfire) are much worse than pirates and more present in the game too, and then there is that queen bich that makes it even worse

 

[Verylittlefishes]

I completed both of these fucking games. I've paid for this. JOSH ARE YOU LISTENING? I was so bored I need to drink absinthe between the loading screens. I think, if I was heroine addict, I would not find calm at the Defiant or whatever. I hate this game. I hate Obsidian. I want to lift with MCA and tell him that life is good. WHY CANT WE HAVE NICE GAMES???

 

[user]

It was less of a pirate setting and more of a colonial setting featuring pirates (namely the Principi) and - depending on your view - mediocre to shit ship mechanics, particularly in terms of naval combat.

It's hard to imagine what they were thinking considering a 3D naval combat template for Unity costs $75.
FFS I'd probably have more fun if they implemented naval combat in the form of a Battleship game

I wonder about this as well. A zoomed-out naval combat, with low poly models, Sid Meier's-style would be incredibly easy to do in Unity. Sawyer said they kept throwing money at it, but to no avail...

 

[Desiderius]

Spent way too much time reading through the PC Gamer comments on this story. I was surprised by how many "normals" said they were turned off by the pirate setting.

A pirate setting without any actual pirates will do that.

 

[Desiderius]

I think he's reading this thread and contemplating his life

Though his mind is not for rent
Don't put him down as arrogant
His reserve, a quiet defense
Riding out the day's events
The river

What you say about his company
Is what you say about society​

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I think he's reading this thread

RPG Codex - Revelations of Divine Love.

 

[Desiderius]

I think he's reading this thread

RPG Codex - Revelations of Divine Love.

To be accurate, hexer said that.

 

[Lacrymas]

Is there any (good) developer of yore who has not started drinking?

 

[Desiderius]

I'm wondering, what exactly carried DOS 2 into massive sales and absolute stardom among even casual gamers?

• Was it coop? First game had it also.
• Was it the combat system or gameplay in general? Similar to the first game, and in a lot of cases worse.
• Was it the graphics? It looks good, but DOS 1 looked pretty similar.
• Was it the writing and plot? Uh, Larian has never been very good at this, so I think not.
• Was it the difficulty? I don't think so, and if anything I think the game would still be pretty hard for casual players who have never played a TB game before.
• Was it the full VO? Well. It surely helped, but by all means it doesn't look like this carries a game to massive sales on its own, as Deadfire proved.

I still don't know what exactly happened with DOS 2. Obsidian clearly tried to replicate it, but I don't think they even understood whatever it was that Larian did so well when marketing it, so their attempt failed.

I too am a bit fascinated by it. I have come to think that there is just something about the colors, the silly cartoon look, the co-op play, the goofy humor, etc that appeals to the 'Critical Role', Comicon, low attention span mass that makes up the current gaming world. I don't know if on purpose or by accident, but they seem to hit right in the target area of this group and got them all riled up for whatever reason. It does not seem any better than the first game to me. I could not play either one for very long. But they really seem to know this audience or something.

Same reason Diablo 2 and BG 2 were hits - they're all enthusiastic celebrations of what people (especially the devs!) loved about the originals. They're chock full of content, and not in fact dumbed down like Deadfire.

The sole ship battle in D:OS 2 was leaps and bounds harder than anything in Deadfire other than the special kiddie pools they made for serious players that had nothing to do with the main story. In D:OS 2 you had to figure that ship battle out or you were fucked.

 

[Tigranes]

I doubt Deadfire "dumbing down" was the reason for its failure to appeal to casuals. Again, that's Codexers projecting their own grognardish discontents onto how the universe works.

DOS2 was indeed a up-front celebration of what the vast majority of casual purchasers liked about DOS1, though, and that is important. In fact, DOS2 I would argue was dumbed down from DOS1: it failed to build any more of a robust, replayable system, and it fails to recapture the Ultima inspiration that made Cyseal the best part of DOS1. But it didn't matter, because there are millions of casuals who loved DOS1's explosive environmental effects and a big world with a sense of adventure set against an uncomplicated fantasy world full of cartoony art and dorky writing.

Deadfire failed to do this every way, because the reception from POE1 was far more mixed and contradictory, whereas Larian got a very clear message on what the new casual funs loved about their first game. And then Deadfire did try to put new things in there to entice players, but it seems like the pirate schtick, etc. wasn't marketed very well (even leaving aside what it does to the actual narrative cohesion of the game).

 

[Desiderius]

I doubt Deadfire "dumbing down" was the reason for its failure to appeal to casuals. Again, that's Codexers projecting their own grognardish discontents onto how the universe works.

DOS2 was indeed a up-front celebration of what the vast majority of casual purchasers liked about DOS1, though, and that is important. In fact, DOS2 I would argue was dumbed down from DOS1: it failed to build any more of a robust, replayable system, and it fails to recapture the Ultima inspiration that made Cyseal the best part of DOS1. But it didn't matter, because there are millions of casuals who loved DOS1's explosive environmental effects and a big world with a sense of adventure set against an uncomplicated fantasy world full of cartoony art and dorky writing.

Deadfire failed to do this every way, because the reception from POE1 was far more mixed and contradictory, whereas Larian got a very clear message on what the new casual funs loved about their first game. And then Deadfire did try to put new things in there to entice players, but it seems like the pirate schtick, etc. wasn't marketed very well (even leaving aside what it does to the actual narrative cohesion of the game).

Yeah, as long as you don’t get to look down on the grubby tasteless masses no explanation could possibly make sense.

D:OS’s (and P:K’s) gameplay is night and day better than Deadfire and it’s exactly all the factors the Codex’s resident snobs like to handwave away that make it so.

There’s more shit to find in the games that are both better games and also sell better (I know, hard to believe, right?) and the shit you find matters more, whether that’s people or stuff or skills or play style or whatever.

 

[Roguey]

Writing seems to me the fastest part of game development, though. Unless you don't work for months on end and then write 3 sentences. How can you even begin content/area design development when the writing isn't at least semi-done? Do the area designers design a zone and then everything is written around that? Seems counter-intuitive, but it still wouldn't mean the writing itself takes a lot of time.

Do they think of themselves as some kind of genius auteurs that need a lot of time to think through their characters? That's laughable.

Companions are one of the last things written (see Torment where they almost didn't happen). Scripting is very time-consuming. Most people aren't Avellone-fast either.

Having done a bit of both, making a combat area and populating it with monsters to kill is far faster than creating a social hub where you have to write a bunch of characters and scripts that fire where appropriate.

Is there any (good) developer of yore who has not started drinking?

If my birdie was on the level all those years ago, Boyarsky is probably still on the wagon since Troika's closure, unless he fell off during the trying times of The Outer Worlds.

 

[Desiderius]

Writing seems to me the fastest part of game development, though. Unless you don't work for months on end and then write 3 sentences. How can you even begin content/area design development when the writing isn't at least semi-done? Do the area designers design a zone and then everything is written around that? Seems counter-intuitive, but it still wouldn't mean the writing itself takes a lot of time.

Do they think of themselves as some kind of genius auteurs that need a lot of time to think through their characters? That's laughable.

Companions are one of the last things written (see Torment where they almost didn't happen). Scripting is very time-consuming. Most people aren't Avellone-fast either.

Having done a bit of both, making a combat area and populating it with monsters to kill is far faster than creating a social hub where you have to write a bunch of characters and scripts that fire where appropriate.

Why are they seen as a must? Lot of people on P:K Steam forums ran to create their own Mercs even though they were gimped in every way.

 

[Roguey]

Why are they seen as a must? Lot of people on P:K Steam forums ran to create their own Mercs even though they were gimped in every way.

Doubt they were a majority. People like traveling with virtual pals. Final Fantasy 4 set the standard in 1991 and no wrpg really met it until Chrono Trigger-loving Chris made Torment.

 

[Tenebris]

I remember people speculating that Pillars 2 was going to be in the Vailian Republics (Or was it Old Vailia?) since Josh or one of the developers had one of it's town as his "home town" on the Obsidian forums. I do wonder how different game we would have gotten had it been there or had they not gone full on autist on the ship combat and traveling.

 

[S.torch]

All this can be reduced to something quite simple and obvious, Divinity: Original Sin, both 1 and 2, had an identity and clear objective of what they wanted to achieve, you notice that the creator did just what he liked, and did not approach the genre with the arrogance that he is above those who enjoy it, as did PoE. You already knew what to expect from a sequel, while Deadfire wanted to appeal to players who didn't care about the first game, and could never have won them, because the developers don't understand the general public, neither the hardcores nor the more casual ones.

 

[Desiderius]

Why are they seen as a must? Lot of people on P:K Steam forums ran to create their own Mercs even though they were gimped in every way.

Doubt they were a majority. People like traveling with virtual pals. Final Fantasy 4 set the standard in 1991 and no wrpg really met it until Chrono Trigger-loving Chris made Torment.

Hard to say. I always tell them not to bother but in their mind every companion is Xzar and Montaron and only a fool wouldn’t roll their own.

I enjoy companions but not if the resources that go into creating them are at the expense of the game itself.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Sawyer has described the ship combat minigame as a black hole quicksand feature, consistently taking way more resources than anticipated, but that feature was nonetheless forced into the game by higher ups.

Not only that, everyone hated it. I have no doubt they could've crafted a better game without that pointless minigame.

EDIT:
As requested by Trashos

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