Development Info Josh Sawyer on Utility and Balance in Game Design

[Alex]

Alex
We all have preferences. My point is, the "OMG THIS SUCKS RUINED FOREVER" attitude is out of place, because none of Sawyer's ideas are really significantly divergent from the IE experience. It's the same stuff packaged in a different way.

I don't really know. The little specifics I have heard I have disliked, But a big part for this is because they were said by Sawyer, as I think I understand what kind of game he would prefer from stuff he said before. Certainly, if I take the few concrete things that have been said at face value, there is really very little to pass judgment. I hope I am wrong, though. I hope not only will PE turn out to be very close to Baldur's Gate, but it will also turn out to be my dream game while doing that.

 

[Captain Shrek]

but at times you get overcome by... hell if I know.

Probably that I am not trying to be liked or disliked and have very clear opinions on what I like or dislike?

That's what someone who wants to be liked on the Codex would say.

That's probably one reason I like the codex.

 

[Moribund]

You won't always have parties where one party does well where another wouldn't unless you make a lot of effort for that to happen. And it goes beyond that anyway, some kind of complexity would be nice in spite of rtwp. But it doesn't just happen automatically. I feel now like sawyer knows nothing about DnD or about game design. If others feel different that's fine, they're just wrong.

 

[Mangoose]

I feel now like sawyer knows nothing game design.

But you do, huh?

 

[Mrowak]

but at times you get overcome by... hell if I know.

Probably that I am not trying to be liked or disliked and have very clear opinions on what I like or dislike?

And you do that by pulling a strawman...



I don't think that counts as "not trying to be liked or disliked" or "having clear opinions". It means "nah, nah, nah I can't hear you!!". Sorry, bro.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Who does Moribund think he is? Does he even know anything about RPGs?

 

[Infinitron]

Guys, just ignore him.

Well, I would say that ultimately Project Eternity's quality will be measured in its encounter design and its C&C - ie, the actual content. Not in the intricacy of its systems.

So, at the very least, you admit that it's not an improvement on the system. I agree with you in that, with the right quality content, design flaws are a lot easier to overlook.

Yes, pretty much. I can agree with that.

I do think the new system will be an improvement in the sense that it'll be better than AD&D at encouraging noobs to use their brains, and at discouraging them from resorting to the use of cheesy tactics.

But of course, for a monocled Codexer, those things don't matter. We know how to use our brains, and we don't use cheesy tactics unless we want to.

 

[Moribund]

You ignored my post about c&c in BG so why not? No need to support what you say when you can pull out a few popular buzzwords you are sure no one will object to. You'd be great at making KS pitches.

It means "nah, nah, nah I can't hear you!!". Sorry, bro.

I give everyone a chance to make their point or debunk mine, but once you have gone in the same circle a couple times what else is there to say?

No one even has anything to say except me. If you are going to attack someone's opinion don't expect them to just cave in just because everyone should agree. If I wanted to "fit in" I'd suck up to people like you and Infinitron and worship game designers like they are christ.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Who does Moribund think he is? Does he even know anything about RPGs?

And who the fuck do YOU think you are?

Sawyer is pretty clueless and it's my dream that he would never ever be allowed to work on a game again, let alone be a lead designer or whatever the fuck he calls himself.

 

[Alex]

Who does Moribund think he is? Does he even know anything about RPGs?

And who the fuck do YOU think you are?

Sawyer is pretty clueless and it's my dream that he would never ever be allowed to work on a game again, let alone be a lead designer or whatever the fuck he calls himself.

I dunno man. I mean, I don't love where Sawyer seems to be going with this, but I wouldn't call himself clueless. I think he just has different priorities than conventional Codex wisdom. I mean, I think that if he had his way, he still would make a fun game, even if it wasn't what I was most looking forward in an RPG.

 

[Lord Andre]

Sawyer's views are good in theory but I'm worried if he can actually implement all that shit in an organic way.

If it turns out to be: press button A for content A or press button B for content B, then it's gonna suck.

Also, how does this affect difficulty ? I don't want the game to be piss-easy. "Close your eyes and bash the keyboard, in Project Eternity every button is awesome."

However, if he did manage to implement this right, it could turn out really good. But that's a big if.

And where is Cain and Avelone ? It feels like they were there for the kickstarter then evaporated. I'm tired of listening to Sawyer rant. How about Tim or Chris rant on design philosophy for a while. It's a fucking group effort isn't it ? It's called "Obsidian's Project Eternity" not "Josh Sawyer does what-ever-the-fuck he thinks is best in his own private kickstarter project".

 

[tuluse]

Sawyer is the lead guy on the project. Avellone is just doing writing, and Cain is going to help, but it's Sawyer's thing.

 

[Mangoose]

No one even has anything to say except me.

You don't say anything except "D&D IS THE BEST" and "CLASSES NEED TO BE DIFFERENT."

You might have a point if you actually elaborated on said topics and related topics on game-design using SPECIFIC EXAMPLES.

But you don't. All you do is state your general opinion and refuse to go any further, which makes you no better than a typical sheeple trying to fit in with rebellious and edgy.

I don't even necessarily disagree with your general opinions, but the logic and evidence (or lack there-of) that you provide makes me immediately just laugh your opinion away.

 

[Mangoose]

Let me give you an example:

Moribund: "Tactics is positioning."

Several replies: "No, tactics is xxxx..."

Moribund: "LOL I didn't mean to start an argument about a definition. You're stupid if you think tactics isn't positioning. Stop being pedantic."

/End

 

[Moribund]

What I said is you can't have a tactical game without positioning and you can't have meaningful/reasonable control of positioning in rtwp to do stuff like set up backstabs and flanks, I mean holy moly how do you think you could? How can a rtwp game be called a tactical game. They called it fallout tactics so I guess it's a game mainly about tactics hee hee.

If you are so clueless you think it's possible there's no arguing with you, and certainly I'm not going to argue the definition of tactics versus strategy which already accounts for 5% of the entire content of the internet.

I wouldn't call himself clueless. I think he just has different priorities than conventional Codex wisdom.

Well, these are two separate things. He definitely breaks convention in almost every way. I'd be more inclined to give it a shot except some of these things I've already seen in action in other games like bloodlines giving no experience for combat and it sucked balls, and after hearing all his little ranties he seems clueless to me, especially when he makes fun of "combat babies". If you can't even understand DnD then how can you make something to supplant it or even rival it?

I've heard people say the same stuff he does, in threads where they talk in all caps and say how much DnD sucks and that BG or whatever game they are playing is way too hard. He pointed to a guy who couldn't make a character to get through IWD 2 but he doesn't seem much better than that kind of guy.

He's done little real game system design and what he has done is stuff I think is terrible like charisma turning F:NV followers into terminators, now I know who to blame for that silliness.

 

[Mangoose]

What I said is you can't have a tactical game without positioning

You do realize that mage battles in BG2 were essentially tactical, even without positioning? Tactics takes on greater possibilities depending on the mechanics of gameplay.

certainlty I'm not going to back up my shitty definition of tactics

you can't have meaningful/reasonable control of positioning in rtwp to do stuff like set up backstabs and flanks

So how exactly are thieves in BG2 useful again?

bloodlines giving no experience for combat and it sucked balls

Lol, the true mind of Moribund.

 

[Mangoose]

And dumbass, stop treating DnD like the holy grail. There are better systems.

 

[Moribund]

And a guy who can't even figure it out isn't making any system worth playing any more than it's worth talking to a clown like you who champions for rtwp.

 

[Apexeon]

Balance is for Noobs.

I hate balance and I am from the small school of thought called "choice".
Which means make a choice and cop the results. This hand
holding by developers is so they can milk the great unwashed masses.

In the game I play the most (19 years old), if you make some bad choices
you lose period/restart.

 

[Mrowak]

And a guy who can't even figure it out isn't making any system worth playing any more than it's worth talking to a clown like you who champions for rtwp.

No one even has anything to say except me. If you are going to attack someone's opinion don't expect them to just cave in just because everyone should agree. If I wanted to "fit in" I'd suck up to people like you and Infinitron and worship game designers like they are christ.

Here's the thing: we are not here to listen to some random opinions of a random newfag, and take them as a revelation. Either you do you homework, thoroughly analyze the presented material and come up with relevant argumentation, or you take your butthurt somewhere and deal with it on your own. After observing you throughout this thread I can safely say that you can into hubris and self-rightous fury against "heretics", but I really cannot find anything relevant to what Sawyer said - everything you argue against is your own creation in your own head.

Infinitron be my witness, I am not Obidian's fanboy. In numerous threads I have argued against P:E feasibility and I questioned their preparations to carrying out the project. One thing I do know for sure, however. These people know a LOT more about gameplay design than you, me, and half of the Codex together, so "not making system worth playing" part is uncalled for. I actually welcomed Josh's video as a sign that they are heading in the right direction and at least attempt to address certain issues the plague cRPGs, but not their PnP counterparts. That you see some kind of betrayal there and get worked up over nonsense, extrapolating what Josh said into a huge issue? That's called paranoia. Deal with it son, and stop wasting our time. Or come up with something that won't be the blind defence of "ultimate RPG" in your own head. Because you are not even in the target audience of P:E. Why should even care about it? Why should you waste your own time on the "discussions", if no one can take your monologue for granted?

 

[Brotherman Bill]

^ oh get a load of this guy (edit: uhm, apexeon). A tad late to the party are we?

The kind of "choice" you get by stuffing the system with 324 different useless skill isn't choice, it's just a test of your metagaming knowledge. It gives you a choice between objectively inferior skills and a useful one, which is not really a meaningful choice. And it is one you see through after a couple hours of playing, and then you start over again and completely ignore these useless "choices" for the rest of your gaming career. I think we have explained this once or thrice already during this thread...

 

[Mrowak]

Balance is for Noobs.

I hate balance and I am from the small school of thought called "choice".
Which means make a choice and cop the results. This hand
holding by developers is so they can milk the great unwashed masses.

In the game I play the most (19 years old), if you make some bad choices
you lose period/restart.

Hey dudes, and how can you achieve "choice" if there is only 1 correct answer, because everything else is shit.

Newsflash: in order for choice to be valid there have to be some optimal and suboptimal consequences. You achieve that by thing called "asymmetrical balance".

If I create an expert doctor lite-gunslinger there sure as hell better be some content to support that build. Sure my doctor won't singlehandedly vanquish dragons, but he will save NPCs, carry our medical rescue operations, if not face the dragon face on, the conduct evacuation of a city and provide auxilary role to the guys that actually can defeat the dragon. He will suck at stuff diplomats, engineers and crowd-control specialist do, but be good at his own cup of tea. That's balance as well. And that's what Josh stated. Period.

 

[Mangoose]

you who champions for rtwp.

What.

Balance is for Noobs.

I hate balance and I am from the small school of thought called "choice".
Which means make a choice and cop the results. This hand
holding by developers is so they can milk the great unwashed masses.

In the game I play the most (19 years old), if you make some bad choices
you lose period/restart.

Yes, that's the simulationist view.

 

[Hormalakh]

I didn't know "the sims" has been out for 19 years. That's a hella old classic.

 

[tuluse]

And dumbass, stop treating DnD like the holy grail. There are better systems.

Regardless, Sawyer often talks about DnD in a positive light. I'm pretty sure he likes it.