Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[Excidium II]

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2017/03/writing-indie-games-is-like-being.html

"It's like Harvest Moon, but 16-bit."

???

 

[Gord]

What's worse, his graphics are utter crap - they're both simplistic and ugly. His assets were never done by a talented artist. And there is a limit to how long you can tolerate that.

Besides - I'm repeating myself a bit here, but, well, repetion abounds around Vogel, that's his second nature - it's not like making a prettier game is that difficult.

I don't have that high demands from such games, but Vogel's graphics lack atmosphere.
Imo, what he needs most is not so much better sprites and tiles (although in some cases it might help), but rather a proper lighting system and some simple effects like fog, weather, etc.
Even if he kept everything else the same, that would improve the looks of his games a lot (which would probably easily net him some sales from people who are not directly repelled by the graphics).

 

[Mustawd]

I'm really not bothered by the quality of the assets tbh. At some point I just want something different. He has two modes: Generic Fantasy and Sci Fi. There are a ton of other genres out there to pull from.

 

[Old One]

FWIW, I finished Avernum 1 and I'm part-way into Avernum 2 at the moment.

These games really make me realize why I dislike the Avadon skill trees so much. In Avernum you carefully search every nook and cranny of every dungeon to make sure you don't miss out on any new spells or spell levels. This is by far the best, most desirable treasure in the game, and skill trees just throw all that away.

 

[the_shadow]

What's worse, his graphics are utter crap - they're both simplistic and ugly. His assets were never done by a talented artist. And there is a limit to how long you can tolerate that.

Besides - I'm repeating myself a bit here, but, well, repetion abounds around Vogel, that's his second nature - it's not like making a prettier game is that difficult.

I don't have that high demands from such games, but Vogel's graphics lack atmosphere.
Imo, what he needs most is not so much better sprites and tiles (although in some cases it might help), but rather a proper lighting system and some simple effects like fog, weather, etc.
Even if he kept everything else the same, that would improve the looks of his games a lot (which would probably easily net him some sales from people who are not directly repelled by the graphics).

Wait, what? Cosmetic rubbish like that isn't what made Vogel's early games so enjoyable.

 

[Gord]

Sure, you don't play his games for the graphics (I didn't either, although I didn't play many of them anyway).
What I'm trying to say is, if he wants to sell more games, than aside from stopping to just remake his old stuff every couple of years, he should try to make them aesthetically more pleasing.
This should help a lot with attracting some more buyers (rather then them never touching his stuff because of how it looks). Superficial? Maybe, but the first impression is important, and for that some aesthetic goes a long way.
Or he just keeps it the way it is, hoping for the few people (which seem to get less every year) that don't care to get him into retirement.

 

[the_shadow]

Sure, you don't play his games for the graphics (I didn't either, although I didn't play many of them anyway).
What I'm trying to say is, if he wants to sell more games, than aside from stopping to just remake his old stuff every couple of years, he should try to make them aesthetically more pleasing.
This should help a lot with attracting some more buyers (rather then them never touching his stuff because of how it looks). Superficial? Maybe, but the first impression is important, and for that some aesthetic goes a long way.
Or he just keeps it the way it is, hoping for the few people (which seem to get less every year) that don't care to get him into retirement.

I think the question here is whether the aesthetic changes Jeff could *realistically* make to his graphics would make much of a difference. Personally, I think the extra effort invested in better lighting, weather effects, and fog, would be better spent focusing on what made his earlier games so compelling (ie. exploration, enjoyable combat, a creative spell system, and decent writing). After all, no matter how much effort he puts into improving the aesthetics, they are never going to match your average RPG these days. He needs to beat rival games on gameplay and exploration (two things which are sadly missing from a lot of AAA RPGs), not on glam.

 

[Infinitron]

I think the question here is whether the aesthetic changes Jeff could *realistically* make to his graphics would make much of a difference.

Yes.

It's not about matching the average RPG, it's about going from unacceptable to acceptable.

Wait, what? Cosmetic rubbish like that isn't what made Vogel's early games so enjoyable.

Vogel's early games didn't face the same amount of competition from other indies.

 

[Mustawd]

It's not about matching the average RPG, it's about going from unacceptable to acceptable.

I think his new versions are pretty damn good if you ask me. I think it's less the assets and more of the fact that people really do not like sequels that do not have a ton of innovation. If BG2 was made with the same assets/fidelity as BG1, I doubt it'd be as popular.

Players always expect better graphics, game to game, which is unfortunate IMO.

 

[gaussgunner]

I think the question here is whether the aesthetic changes Jeff could *realistically* make to his graphics would make much of a difference.

Yes.

It's not about matching the average RPG, it's about going from unacceptable to acceptable.

Much as I prefer 2D, I think he's on the right track with 3D. More bang for the buck. His old sprites were 3D rendered, so he was already paying the price up front. Switching to a 3D engine means a simpler asset pipeline, smaller files, smoother animations, more flexibility, and resolution independence. That would solve the problem you have on HD+ monitors where you're looking at a huge ~40x40 map area with tiny little sprites like a strategy wargame. You can zoom in so it looks like an actual RPG again.

Not that I condone Unity, but the alternatives are for hardcore programmers only.

I hope he doesn't go batshit with copypasta shader effects, free camera positioning, or super detailed uncanny valley graphics.

 

[passerby]

Vogel's complete lack of any taste in aesthetics and Unity Asset Store, this will end well.

 

[FeelTheRads]

His old sprites were 3D rendered, so he was already paying the price up front.

Not necessarily. The same model used for sprites can't always be used for a 3D engine... or vice-versa.

 

[Serus]

He is an (relatively) old guy, completely burnt out afaik. At this stage of one's life and creative career you can still make somewhat good sequels or remakes or whatever but a new title with new ideas ? I will believe it when i see it.

 

[gaussgunner]

His old sprites were 3D rendered, so he was already paying the price up front.

Not necessarily. The same model used for sprites can't always be used for a 3D engine... or vice-versa.

Agreed. But it doesn't matter, if he's getting all-new assets from the Unity Store. I would ass-ume those are all suitable for realtime rendering.

He is an (relatively) old guy, completely burnt out afaik. At this stage of one's life and creative career you can still make somewhat good sequels or remakes or whatever but a new title with new ideas ? I will believe it when i see it.

Yeah, 25 years of this shit. I couldn't take it. In that time I've had a dozen jobs in 2 careers, plus odd jobs and serious hobbies. If I make RPGs (3rd career) I'll probably stop after 2 or 3 releases, go on to career #4, and maybe make one more game after I retire.

 

[Mustawd]

is old sprites were 3D rendered,

Then why would moving to 3D help in any way?

And all of you are crazy. This looks fine to me:

It's creativity and innovation that his games lack. And that's completely necessary to get noticed as an indie nowadays.

 

[Hobo Elf]

It looks fine, but I do agree that proper effects and shadows would go a long way to make it even better. But at the end of the day the problem isn't that it looks competent so much as the fact that every single game looks nearly identical. It gets really tiresome after a while.

 

[Excidium II]

The sprites are too detailed for what it is. His maps always look oversized and barren.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Yes, the main problem is the general feeling that once you've played one, you've played them all. If they were shorter games then this wouldn't matter so much, but since they're all pretty much hard-slogs with a lot of repetition and backtracking it's quite difficult to get the motivation to fire up no.2 in any given series without a long break, let alone 3,4,5 etc etc [tru 100% autists excluded obv]

The sprites are too detailed for what it is. His maps always look oversized and barren.

And this. difficult to explain how, but I think this comes under the marker of reused low quality assets and the whole graphics issue.

 

[gaussgunner]

is old sprites were 3D rendered,

Then why would moving to 3D help in any way?

And all of you are crazy. This looks fine to me:

It's creativity and innovation that his games lack. And that's completely necessary to get noticed as an indie nowadays.

I can't even tell what game that is. Just another dragon on a lava island. I guess Avadon 2 or 3 based on the avatars, but it could be an Avernum remake.

3D would put consistent lighting and shadows on everything, so it doesn't look flat.

He could zoom in 2x without pixellation. You don't need to see all that, just the lava island.

He could vary the sprite colors & sizes so there aren't so many identical NPCs. I've seen hundreds of that one on the lower left, wearing red tights. You never know if it's a man or woman, random thug or great chieftan.

Most importantly he could do all this cheaper & easier in 3D.

 

[Iznaliu]

Most importantly he could do all this cheaper & easier in 3D.

For some reason I highly doubt this.

 

[Average Manatee]

is old sprites were 3D rendered,

Then why would moving to 3D help in any way?

And all of you are crazy. This looks fine to me:

It's creativity and innovation that his games lack. And that's completely necessary to get noticed as an indie nowadays.

Compare that to this:

He doesn't need 2017 AAA 3D graphics. 1996 2D would be sufficient. Just a bit of dynamic lighting to make the lava look like its lighting up the rest of the area would be a huge improvement. Some darkness would also benefit his art in general by hiding the inconsistent level of detail and repeating tiles.

 

[Mustawd]

It's not the fidelity of the graphics. I agree with you that the art direction could be a lot better for sure. But to illustrate my point, Diablo 1 and 2 both were prerendered 2D tile-based maps. Both games still look good. No reason to spend a lot of unnecessary time and money on making it full 3D. You just need a better 3D artist and/or level designer.

 

[Average Manatee]

A modern 3D engine is likely to be a lot better supported and come with more impressive graphical features out of the box. That's important for Vogel since I get the feeling he doesn't like to spend time on the technical details of these things. After all, he's been in business for almost 20 years with almost no engine updates beyond UI stuff.

Although now that I go back and check, he definitely does have dynamic lighting with light sources that turn on and off even in his much older games. So I guess he just needs to use them a lot better. Your screenshot was a particularly bad example where he didn't even try to make the level look anything but bright and flat.

 

[gaussgunner]

Most importantly he could do all this cheaper & easier in 3D.

For some reason I highly doubt this.

You'd be surprised. 2D isometric graphics are a royal pain in the ass. There's a thread about it over in the workshop. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/old-school-isometric-rpg-hardship.113429/

 

[almondblight]

The thing about Vogel is that his business practice for 15-20 years was to crank out a new game every year and get 4,000 - 5,000 sales from a small but dedicated core of fans (plus a few other people). This (and self-publishing) is how he survived making indie games when almost no one else did.

For instance, Cythera was released the same year as Exile III and most people would consider its graphics better:

Spoiler

But I don't think Glenn Andreas made any game after that. (For what it's worth, I like the graphics of Exile III and think it's the best looking Spiderweb game)

The market just wasn't big enough then, and spending 3 times as long on a game to get 20% more customers was a losing strategy. But now things have changed, and Vogel's been struggling to figure out how to work with the new reality. I think when Avadon sold so well he just thought that things would be like before, but with 30,000 instead of 4,500 sales. But it doesn't work like that. Gamers will buy a novel game on sale that they might never play, but they're probably not going to be buying it's 6 sequels (why bother if you never got around to the first). So he probably realizes it's worth taking a crack at a big gambit project and seeing how things go (which is nice, I don't like that 50% of his games are recycled from previous games).