Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[Fowyr]

You really think so? I have played two of his games so far: Geneforge 1 and Avernum: EFTP. And the improvement in game mechanics is staggering. Combat is Geneforge was tedious, boring and had zero depth.

Combat in Arcanum

Is there something I'm missing here? What makes the remakes less fun?

You should compare Avernum 1-3 with Exiles. Or nu-Nethergate and original one. Avernums are fucking dumbed down Exiles, I wrote about it many times, even making list of cut content.

Also, just a thought, but maybe you enjoy the remakes less because you already played the original? And maybe you would have enjoyed the remake more than the original if you played the remake first? Since whichever version you play first spoils the second one.

Nope.

 

[Keye_]

Are you saying that Geneforge 1 has better combat than Avernum: EFTP? Or are you saying that combat is unbearable in both?
And am I to understand that combat was more complex in the original Avernums/Exile than EFTP?

Hehe, stupid typo, I was just posting in an Arcanum thread, so forgive the unconscious mix-up.

You should compare Avernum 1-3 with Exiles. Or nu-Nethergate and original one. Avernums are fucking dumbed down Exiles, I wrote about it many times, even making list of cut content.

As I said, I have not played any other Avernum, Exile, etc. games. Geneforge is the only older title I've played so far.
I'll look up some of those posts then.

 

[Mustawd]

And am I to understand that combat was more complex in the original Avernums/Exile than EFTP?

Exiles had a 6 man party, and general consensus was that it was more fun, yes.

Is there something I'm missing here? What makes the remakes less fun?

Nothing. I doubt Lambchop has ever even played a Vogel game. EFTP is fun as is the original Avernum. Exiles are considered better, but overall with less polish and graphics. I actually enjoyed EFTP over Avernum 1 more, as it feels like there were some tweaks to the economy and it seems to have less enemy spawns (aka trash combat) on the World Map. It also has some quality of life improvements like an improved quest journal.

 

[V_K]

Exiles had a 6 man party, and general consensus was that it was more fun, yes.

It also had 3-4 times as many spells, many of them dealing with battlefield manipulation - something completely missing from the remakes.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Yes, but can we agree Geneforge combat is shit, lest that golden truth get lost in the enlightening of Exile.

 

[V_K]

I don't remember it being so terrible (compared to Avernum/Avadon at least), but even if it was, it's the only Vogel's series that allows to avoid a lot of combats, so it kinda balances out in the end.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Avoiding the combat in Geneforge meant having the same stop-start problem, you were just deactivating mines and turrets every 5 feet instead of killing wandering creations.

 

[V_K]

I'm not sure about G1, but in G5 it was possible to just stay in combat mode. And you're only controlling one character, not a 7-strong party, so it eases it all a bit.

 

[TigerKnee]

Can't wait for the Geneforge remake with RtWP combat, skill points turned to talent trees and romance-able companions.

 

[Fowyr]

Are you saying that Geneforge 1 has better combat than Avernum: EFTP? Or are you saying that combat is unbearable in both?

I'm saying that GF's combat was not very special, but fine. Surely beats later games with their stupid "guess resist!" games.

I'll look up some of those posts then.

Don't bother, I found them.

Exile:

This was spoken again and again. Exile has better combat due to 6 character party, lot of spells, big combat field, fucking FOOD - many of Exile's encounters lost any sense (starving wyrm in E3 for example) - and so on. Fuck Avernum. Fuck it very hard. And all you gain is only some more lore and dialogue trees? Sheesh!

Add to it arows, item identification and some other small things. Loss of many very neat and awesome spells was especially retarded. Keyword dialogue system allowed some easter eggs, by the way.

Nethergate:

The original Nethergate is better, Resurrection butchered mechanics a lot, some encounters now don't even have a sense. And added dungeon is craptastic. It's fucking rollercoaster (Romans to the left, Celts to the right! Five rooms onwards and your prize awaits you!)

Ressurection was avernumification of Nethergate. Game lost food, need to id, blessing pools, gain shitton of trainers, two dungeons - one is very dumb, lost magical lockpicks (maybe ALL lockpicks), bunch of skills, woad is useless etc.

Food was very important in some encounters and last area of the game.

He butchered blessing pools, one or two skills (potions available was calculated as function of herbology and alchemy or some shit), woad, food, items was avernumized (i.e. no more magic lockpicks) and so on. Several encounters what was centered around the food lost any sense.
You may play remake, it was not cardinally changed from original, but I liked original more.

 

[the_shadow]

Is there something I'm missing here? What makes the remakes less fun?

The original Exile's had a lot of ideas, some of which weren't well implemented or balanced. Archery was practically useless, the spell system had a good variety of spells but was open to numerous exploits (buffs and curses stacked, so you could make an invincible fighter by repeatedly casting bless), alchemy wasn't worth it if you had a spellcaster in your party (and with 6 PCs, there was no reason not to have one), there were numerous weapons types (maces were underpowered), unique weapons were very distinctive, etc.

Exile 2 and Exile 3 added more good ideas, many of which also weren't well balanced. Dual wielding turned fighters into buzzsaws, more spells were added to the system (some of which were redundant, some which were weird but effective, and some just awesome), you got more alchemy recipes that you hardly ever used, you got varied types of ammunition for archers that were still underpowered. Exile 3, to me, is something that is very sandbox like, but also horribly unbalanced. It's also a lot of fun.

Avernum 1-3 are more polished and streamlined, and perhaps that is the problem. Instead of trying to balance or fix things, they are just cut out. Dual-wielding? Gone (it makes a return in Avernum 6). Thrown weapons? Gone. Blunt weapons? Gone. Apply poison to your weapon? Gone. A large number of unique spells that were available to you in Exile? Gone. The variety of unique weapons? Gone. Items whose description, even when identified, had ????. Gone. Varied arrow types? Gone in Avernum 4 (although certain bows inflict can inflict secondary acid damage).

A lot of the randomness is also gone, especially in Avernum 4-6, and the third remakes. When you killed an enemy in Exile, they could drop almost anything, from a stone dagger to a magic waveblade. There were also certain vendors who sold random items. The former disappeared in Avernum 1, and the latter disappeared in Avernum 4. Yeah, it's not terribly balanced to buy a magic waveblade in Chapter 1 of Exile 2, but still...

Combat was also very fast paced in Exile and Avernum 1-3. Hit point bloat started appearing in Avernum 5, and it's stayed since then.

People keep talking about the spell system in Exile, which was very creative, sort of broken, but lots of fun. Charm foe lasted *forever*, you could create magic barriers, you had a variety of field and multi-target spells (including anti-magic and web fields), damage everything nearby with shockwave, or set and entire town aflame with Quickfire. Was Quickfire practical? Hell no, but it sure was fun! I remember charming virtually every enemy in a major Empire fortress in Exile 2 until I had my own personal army, and patching up a friendly town under attack from golems with forcefield barriers in Exile 3.

Sometimes offering players more choices, even if they aren't the most practical or balanced choices, can add a lot to a game.

 

[Infinitron]

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2017/03/writing-indie-games-is-like-being.html

Writing Indie Games Is Like Being a Musician. In the Bad Way.


"Our game is called Mystik Spiral. It is an indie interactive aggression about the evils of conformist corporate culture. Coming on Steam for Windows and Mac and as an XBox One console exclusive."

Over the last couple years, I've gotten a fair amount of attention for my articles about the Indie Bubble and the Indie Glut. (And even a GDC talk.)

Quick version of indie gaming history: In 2010 or so, due to a combination of factors (AAA creative stagnation, better development tools, better online stores to sell on), indie games caught on in a big way and made a ton of money. For a short time, getting the Golden Ticket and landing a game on Steam was guaranteed big cash. This was the "Indie Bubble" phase.

People who wanted to write a video game (i.e. everyone) saw this and went, "Hey, I wanna get rich following my dreams too!" There was a big pile-on. MANY indie games became available, more than anyone actually wanted. This was the "Indie Glut" phase.

At last, I can complete the trilogy of articles. Now we can look around and see where we've ended up, a phase which I suspect will be permanent. (At least until the Earth gets hit by a large solar flare and we get to start over.)

You can't deal with this business without grasping its fundamental reality. So it's worth wallowing in this topic one more time. A proper understanding of reality will help us process a lot of otherwise perplexing issues (like Apple or Steam charging devs to have games on their store, or the ever-present "discoverability problem).

To see where we are, let's talk about a long-standing rite of passage for young creative types: Starting a band.


I think this would be really funny if I knew anything at all about music. Can someone translate it into a Guitar Hero chart for me? I think it means I have to learn how to play the orange notes.

The Story of Being a Musician

For decades, many young, enthusiastic, creative people have worked through their dreams, energy, and youthful ambition by forming bands.

Why not? It's takes a fair amount of technical and artistic aptitude to learn an instrument, write songs, get gigs, press a CD, etc., so it's a good sponge to soak up excess ambition and energy. But it's not a prohibitive amount of energy, so just about anyone can start a band.

Usually, this band is a reaction against corporate pop culture. "Screw your plastic, AAA, mass-produced, soulless Katy Perry crap! We're going to create real art." This is an entirely worthwhile goal, even if it fails 99.999% of the time.

Of course, most bands die. After all, most bands are terrible. Even if they aren't, people grow older. They lose their energy. Their dreams die. Life intervenes. They get jobs as insurance adjusters or whatever. Their demo CDs get stuck in the attic, forgotten, and then they have kids. Who start their own bands.

Not everyone gives up, though. A tiny handful of bands, through a combination of skill, connections, and luck, become actual successes and make careers out of it. Other musicians make a living as freelancers or working in a business environment (studio musicians, corporate gigs, etc). Others, the damned souls, trapped between a lack of talent and an inability to quit, live long (looooong) lives as failed musicians.

Most quit (or do art as a hobby). This is ok. The world needs plumbers far more than it needs musicians.

But the hard inexorable math of the thing is this: There are far more people who want to make a living as a musician (actor, writer, dancer) then there are paying jobs they can occupy.

There comes a time when you have to face this. Disney movies and La La Land lied to you. There is a point where refusing to give up makes you stop being an admirable young spitfire and start being a cautionary tale.

Anyway, this is the basic cycle of the thing. For the last few decades, younger people with a certain amount of talent, energy, and time could soak all that into starting a band. A few prospered. The rest went on to other things.


The current location on Steam of the New Releases chart. (Artist's conception.)

You Probably Figured Out Where This Is Going

Getting together with some friends and writing a game is the new Starting a Band. I'm not saying this is going to happen. It already has.

Plenty has been written about the flood of games appearing on Steam. As I write this, 125 in the last week alone. More games than anyone wants, that's for sure. That's why Steam has made it very difficult to see all new releases. Let's be honest. Almost nobody cares to drink from this firehose.

Don't believe me? Check it out yourself!

It is very instructive to look at these new releases, which is why the site What's On Steam, which just shows all new releases, is useful. Take a look. New titles appear FAST. Most of them will bomb, and their creators will vanish from the public view forever.

Here’s a fun trick. Write down the most recent 10 Steam games released. Wait a month. Check their sales on SteamSpy. (Bear in mind you need a few sales to appear on SteamSpy at all.) You will see very few games that get any traction. Each of their creators is just another kid who started a band (and there's nothing wrong with that).

There's no need anymore to predict the endgame for the video game glut. It's happened. We're living it. Bands haven't gone away. There's still a billion of them. People making lots of video games won't go away. There'll always be a billion of them, offering their hot take of the procedurally generated Roguelike 2-D platformer (now in VR!!!!!).

This is why "Indiepocalypse" is such a useless term. Other fields have exactly the same situation, but nobody talks about the Musicianpocalypse or the Actorpocalypse or the Writerpocalypse. It's just part of life.

This is the new normal. So, if you are one of the doomed souls who is determined to make a living in this business, you must figure out how to deal with it.


Fun business tip! When you start seeing articles like this, you've already missed the boat.

Curation Won't Make a Difference

Here's what gets me about the situation. Often, when people talk about the flood of games on Steam, they act like it's mostly trash and Steam should just curate most of it away.

I wrote a whole article’s worth of stuff in this section, but this post is already stupid long, so I chopped it out to post on its own. I’ll bullet point it for you:

1. Steam doesn’t want to curate. They hate it.
2. Even if they did curate, at least half of the stuff would remain, because it’s good enough. It’d still be a flood.
3. A fee to get on Steam won’t change anything any more than the fee to get on iTunes did. In other words, not at all.
4. Steam and iTunes don’t have a discoverability problem. They and their customers are doing great. Developers are the ones who have the problem. Nyeah.

College Degrees In Game Development

Colleges are, for all practical purposes, businesses. They charge a fee and provide a product (your degree). Like good, practical businessmen, when they saw video games get hot, they jumped forward and generously offered to give you, in return for over $100K USD of post-tax money, a piece of paper that claims you know how to make them.

I've written about college video game degrees before. I don't have much more to add to that, except to say you shouldn't get one without being realistic about your chances.

You might have a lifelong career in video games. Hey, anything's possible. But video games are an artistic field. Writing a successful video game is HARD (like becoming a full-time musician), and a huge portion of the field burns out of it before they hit middle age.

Want a degree in video games? Fine. But you may want to approach it like getting a college degree in, say, playing the trombone. You might be one of the ones who makes it, but you'd damned well better have a solid Plan B.


Steam tried to get me to pay full price for an indie game. My face when.

Global Competition!

The competition in the vidya gaems biz is going to get even more gruesome. Development is starting to become far more of a global activity. This will mean not only more titles to fight, but more downward price pressure.

The Law of Supply and Demand already tells us that when there is a glut of supply (games) and roughly constant demand, prices will be pushed inexorably downward. (Which explains deep discount Steam sales and Humble Bundle.) I've sadly watched indie devs plaintively asking their fellows to join them in trying to keep prices high, only to see those efforts get ground to dust by the inexorable gears of Economics 101.

(Though I would note that if your business model requires Price Fixing to survive, it may be a bit flawed.)

But prices will get even lower, because you will increasingly compete against developers in the third world. Having a hard time competing now? Wait until you’re fighting someone in a country with 1/10 the cost of living of yours. Someone who can charge $1 USD a copy and still make out great.

Yeah. However pessimistic you were feeling about your game's chances before, it's even worse than that.

So What Does It Take To Succeed?

A really good game that feels fresh and new and is solid and also manages to, through going viral or really good PR work, get attention. Sometimes bands still get rich. So can you.

You just need to watch for those rare opportunities to make a game that says, "It's Like [Popular Thing], but [Some Small Change]." in a new way. "It's like Harvest Moon, but 16-bit." "It's like Minecraft, but 2-D." "It's like a JRPG, but with bullet hell shooter combat." “It’s like Huniepop, but more Huniepop.”

There will always be ways to get rich. All you have to do is be brilliant, spot the right opportunity at the right time, have at least a little luck, and then make an amazing product.


This is all getting depressing, so, to cheer you up, I added a picture of an adorable doggo.

My Grim Future

When the Indie Bubble happened, I made a bunch of money. More than I deserved. And then I saved it. I'd been around long enough to see both booms and busts, and I knew you had to save during the former to prepare for the latter.

But the games business for small developers (and if you are an indie developer who didn't write Minecraft, you are a small developer) is in a bust phase that won't end. So now I'm asking myself, "How am I, between new games and remastering old ones, going to stretch Spiderweb Software for 20 years and reach retirement."

It's scary. I don't know if I can do it. Our newest game, Avadon 3, didn't do that well. I think it's a really good game, and the people who bought it seem to like it. But there are new RPGs coming out on Steam every single workday, some of them are good, and you can only hold off so much competition before being overwhelmed.

Next year, I am going to write an all new game engine and series. I think it's going to be really neat and different from what I've done before, and I'm excited about it. But I'll tell you this: Its development is going to be LEAN AND MEAN.

I'm using as little custom art and music as I can. (Working title is "Unity Asset Store: The Game.") Any way I can cut costs and still maintain a constant art style and game quality, I will take it, and I won't apologize. This market doesn't allow for blowing money unnecessarily anymore, at least not for me.

If you criticize me for that, feel free. It's your right. I'll just think of the developers who, during the Indie Bubble, flush with easy Steam money, made fun of my development style TO MY FACE. Developers who are sadly no longer in business. While I keep plugging along in my humble little bottom feeder way.

My goal is to prove you can live an entire fulfilling career writing indie games. From college to old age, all the way through. I'm over halfway there. But man, the next two decades are looking like a long road.

I'm Done Writing About This

This blog has been focused on the indie business for the last few years, and I'm mostly done with that topic. I believe we are in a stable phase now, so there isn't much else to say. I think that most gamers don't actually care. They don't care about business stuff. They just want to talk about games and how awesome they are.

I write this blog to get attention for myself, because it's really hard for a small developer to get attention. From here on, I want to write outrageous funny things about games in the hope that I get a little attention and something goes viral and I pick up a handful of customers along the way.

Good luck to everyone in this business. Unless you're directly competing with me, in which case I wish you luck in some other business.

And if you want to make a living in games and need some advice, here it is: Write a VR game. It's TOTALLY going to be the NEXT BIG THING and not a faddish washout AT ALL.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Next year, I am going to write an all new game engine and series. I think it's going to be really neat and different from what I've done before, and I'm excited about it. But I'll tell you this: Its development is going to be LEAN AND MEAN.

I know I'm probably getting my hopes up for no reason, but if Vogel steps away fromtrying to be a poor-man's Bioware developer, then I actually may be paying for his next game. Avadon 2 and 3 are the only games of his I didn't purchase. <crosses fingers>

 

[Gord]

As much as I can understand what he's trying to say, I think at some point he will need to take some creative risks to have (more) success with his games (again).
Then again, maybe he has become just a bit too jaded for that.

 

[gaussgunner]

Don't believe me? Check it out yourself!

It is very instructive to look at these new releases, which is why the site What's On Steam, which just shows all new releases, is useful. Take a look. New titles appear FAST. Most of them will bomb, and their creators will vanish from the public view forever.

Damn kids these days.

 

[vonAchdorf]

As much as I can understand what he's trying to say, I think at some point he will need to take some creative risks to have (more) success with his games (again).
Then again, maybe he has become just a bit too jaded for that.

His creative risks (Avadon) weren't received that well.

He didn't rule out "creative risks" though, only financial ones ("stock art - the game").

 

[gaussgunner]

His creative risks (Avadon) weren't received that well.

He didn't rule out "creative risks" though, only financial ones ("stock art - the game").

I wouldn't call Avadon a creative risk. Same old thing with a crappy quest structure and whatever Bethesda/Bioware gimmicks he could shoehorn into his old engine. Making two sequels wasn't just a risk, he should've known they'd bomb.

Vogel is basically one of those shovelware devs flooding Steam with cookie-cutter games. He started it but he can't keep up with the guy reskinning a match-3 game 10 times a day.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I wouldn't class his games as that bad, I think that's a slight over-exaggeration.

 

[StaticSpine]

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2017/03/writing-indie-games-is-like-being.html

And if you want to make a living in games and need some advice, here it is: Write a VR game. It's TOTALLY going to be the NEXT BIG THING and not a faddish washout AT ALL.

 

[gaussgunner]

I wouldn't class his games as that bad, I think that's a slight over-exaggeration.

They're not bad, just repetitious. The text is what really distinguishes one Spiderweb game from another, and they're not exactly page-turner novels. I just want to play the game. After playing a few of his games I don't see the value (of my time, let alone $20 a game) of playing any more, unless he delivers some gameplay incline.

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2017/03/writing-indie-games-is-like-being.html

And if you want to make a living in games and need some advice, here it is: Write a VR game. It's TOTALLY going to be the NEXT BIG THING and not a faddish washout AT ALL.

Jeff is edgy as fuck.

 

[TigerKnee]

Is he supposed to be the damned, trapped failed musician in his example?

 

[gaussgunner]

He's the guitarist's guitarist who's made 25 solo albums of technically amazing yet boring solos over edgy metal riffs fused with MIDI elevator jazz.

Not the one who's still rolling in royalties from Megadeth's #1 album.

 

[Zetor]

Come to think of it, a musician parallel is Marc Pattison. Not sure if anyone here has even heard about that dude, but back in the mid-1990s when people actually used sites like mp3.com, he was one of the only instrumental rock / metal artists on there (just as Vogel was one of the very few recognizable indie RPGers around that time -- Tom Proudfoot was the only other name that got some traction in this genre). "Workmanlike" is probably a good way to describe his stuff: some decent tracks (he's no Satriani, obviously), most of them don't really stand out... but he just kept cranking out record after record.

Out of curiosity, I checked him out on spotify the other day, and yup -- he's still there and pumping out new albums. Maybe he could make a band with Vogel, the "Somewhat Remarkable Wunderkinder of the Early Internet Age Who Are Going The Distance"!

 

[Werdna's Revenge]

Next year, I am going to write an all new game engine and series. I think it's going to be really neat and different from what I've done before, and I'm excited about it. But I'll tell you this: Its development is going to be LEAN AND MEAN.

I know I'm probably getting my hopes up for no reason, but if Vogel steps away fromtrying to be a poor-man's Bioware developer, then I actually may be paying for his next game. Avadon 2 and 3 are the only games of his I didn't purchase. <crosses fingers>

Vogel is a competent dev, so just knowing he's trying something new at least has me interested. Although I hate the stock unity asset look.

 

[Pope Amole II]

If you want my expert opinion - dude just went insane. That happens with people, you know.

People buy his games less & less because they're not satisfied with the production values (especially after his response to the dwinndling sales was raising the price tag twice without putting any additional effort). It's as simple as that. Sure, in terms of gameplay, he's constantly solid and way above to what you will usually see on the indie-rpg scene. Mind you, not in the totally lauded games like the AoD and Underrail and more in the bleak shovelware that gets released bi-weekly and is not discussed even here.

However, while Avadon 3 is a good game (by these not very demanding standards), it's only good because it reuses all that was good in Avadon 1 & 2. And those are only good because they're reusing all the efforts of Avernum 5 & 6. And those are good... You get the drift.

What's worse, his graphics are utter crap - they're both simplistic and ugly. His assets were never done by a talented artist. And there is a limit to how long you can tolerate that.

Besides - I'm repeating myself a bit here, but, well, repetion abounds around Vogel, that's his second nature - it's not like making a prettier game is that difficult. Styg is definitely no billionaire and he's absolutely on a budget and yet his game (&addon) looks million times better than Vogel's. It's not that difficult to outsource this stuff to some easter europeans, especially when he is the fucking Jeff Vogel (i.e., has some reputation in RPG circles).

Instead, trying to cut the costs (and, obviously, this means there will be zero fresh gameplay too - gotta reuse all that's possible) even further is just a death wish. The next project will obviously flop even harder because who needs this shit? You gotta respect your audience if you wish to get their money. At least pretend to respect them, duh.