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Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

Self-Ejected

Ludo Lense

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I am gonna play devil's advocate here and agree with Vogel. This article wasn't about difficulty fetishists but rather about developer psychology. Most creative people (unless we are talking about projects led by 1 totalitarian voice) value feedback and try to satisfy or at least understand it. This goes double for projects that are in the making like EA games. The thing is that adamant people that dedicate themselves to a game already have their perspective colored and their feedback isn't the be-all and end-all.

This might sound callous but when you are in EA you think of the people who haven't bought your game yet not the ones who did in what essentially is an optional payed beta testing phase. This isn't kickstarter, I disagree with the devs that try to please their EA crowd, they are there to help the developer reach their vision not to influence the dev to make the game they personally want.

Also, no amount of feedback will make you a good developer. A bad one will do bad with or without, a good one might do slightly better with.
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
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Messages
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You can essentially replace "Difficulty fetishists" with any loud minority groups such as LGBT activists if that part triggers you too much.

It all boils down to: People who are satisfied don't really make a lot of noise, they just buy/use your products, until they DO become unsatisfied and then they speak up and you start to think your fanbase is schizophrenic.
 

Gord

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Can agree with Vogel in his advice to devs to not compromise their vision too much in favour of some vocal minority.
Although I'm not sure whether some of his advices to young aspiring devs woud rather create an echo chamber than provide a good basis for solid feedback.
Anyway, his conclusions about Darkest Dungeon are wrong, at least in my opinion. The DD devs never caved in to the difficulty fetishists (not even with the corpses that got made optional anyway), they are simply in a very difficult spot between hardcore and casual gamers - both want DD to cater more towards their "needs", but it's impossible to reconcile both.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Basically agree with you about DD.

Although I'm not sure whether some of his advices to young aspiring devs woud rather create an echo chamber than provide a good basis for solid feedback.


The hard thing is that back in the day Beta testing happened by invite only. Which meant that someone with enough experience in the genre and who represented the core audience could provide constructive feedback that the devs could use to tweak the game mechanics, etc.

But now anyone with enough cash can just be a beta tester, but has no idea what they're doing. Which leads to all kinds of contradictory feedback that not worth the trouble. In that case, yes...an echo chamber might not be ideal, but it's probably the best of both evils.
 

gaussgunner

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Beta testers should GET PAID, even a token amount. They are working for the developer, not the other way round.

I have to agree with Vogel on Early Access. It's complete bullshit. Every programmer with enough experience to write a saleable game knows that all software is total shit until the day before release. Or version 1.1. And the last 10% ends up being 90%. Early Access means you pay 200% for 10% of the game with 1000:1 odds that it will never be completed to your satisfaction. If the developers need money they should do paying jobs until they have the savings and programming chops to build a finished game.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Beta testers should GET PAID, even a token amount. They are working for the developer, not the other way round.

I have to agree with Vogel on Early Access. It's complete bullshit. Every programmer with enough experience to write a saleable game knows that all software is total shit until the day before release. Or version 1.1. And the last 10% ends up being 90%. Early Access means you pay 200% for 10% of the game with 1000:1 odds that it will never be completed to your satisfaction. If the developers need money they should do paying jobs until they have the savings and programming chops to build a finished game.
First, Early Access doesn't mean that the game is shit until released. See Underrail and Battle Brothers, for example. Play them and tell me that the last 10% end up being 90% of the game or that the odds are 1000:1.

Second, you start working paying jobs to save for full time development, you'll never save enough unless you have one of those "I'm 1%!" jobs. Third, Early Access isn't about beta testing for free, it's about supporting a promising project if you give a fuck (i.e. if you're tired of playing AAA shit). Most indie developers are working on pure enthusiasm and won't make it to the finish line without your help.
 

pippin

Guest
Early Access is just a twist of the kickstarter tier mentality. As always, the problem is not the thing itself, but the ways people can find to pervert it. The only game I have played during its early access period was Neo Scavenger, and it has only just grown after that. I'm sure the same will happen with Underrail and Battle Brothers, but these people have proven to be more than capable to deliver what they want to achieve, and they only lack monetary support. That does not speak for all the early access projects out there, though.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Early access is easily exploited, but a pretty good idea at the bottom line. I am having lots of fun with the "alpha" games I bought, and I can still get the 'real' experience in whatever many years when they're done. But I already had my money's worth. I played like 30 hours of Darkest Dungeon, 30 of Underrail (and am only in the second town...) and 100 of 7 Days to Die.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Early Access is just a twist of the kickstarter tier mentality. As always, the problem is not the thing itself, but the ways people can find to pervert it. The only game I have played during its early access period was Neo Scavenger, and it has only just grown after that. I'm sure the same will happen with Underrail and Battle Brothers, but these people have proven to be more than capable to deliver what they want to achieve, and they only lack monetary support. That does not speak for all the early access projects out there, though.
Early Access is much more straightforward than KS. Whereas KS is about selling dreams that may or may not materialize, EA is about getting access to the existing content which is easily verified, rated, and commented on by other people. After Reset, for example, did well enough on KS, but nosedived on EA because it doesn't offer much.
 

gaussgunner

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First, Early Access doesn't mean that the game is shit until released. See Underrail and Battle Brothers, for example. Play them and tell me that the last 10% end up being 90% of the game or that the odds are 1000:1.

lol, methinks a certain developer has a game in Early Access and it ain't happenin'...
:butthurt:
I'm sure there are some good EA games. Those are the 0.1%. When EA is gone the good games will still come out eventually, and the 99.9% shit will stop flooding the markets and siphoning money away from worthy developers. :obviously:

Second, you start working paying jobs to save for full time development, you'll never save enough unless you have one of those "I'm 1%!" jobs.

I have good news for you, programming is a 1% job...... if you don't mind dealing with some goddamn shitty motherfucking frameworks and shit. Good preparation for game programming, hahah. You can also start game development part-time while doing ANY job. I saw a gas station attendant sketching concept art, for example. Life is tough.

Early access is easily exploited, but a pretty good idea at the bottom line. I am having lots of fun with the "alpha" games I bought.....

Fair point. You know what EA needs? Mandatory demos. Up front. Try before you buy, see if it's even playable. 99% of the crap out there now would never pass that test.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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lol, methinks a certain developer has a game in Early Access and it ain't happenin'...
:butthurt:
What exactly "ain't happening"? Sure, AoD was in Early Access and I think it did well. My point was that usually the content is added in stages, i.e. it's not shit until the last 10% is released.

I'm sure there are some good EA games. Those are the 0.1%. When EA is gone the good games will still come out eventually, and the 99.9% shit will stop flooding the markets and siphoning money away from worthy developers. :obviously:
Remove Early Access and you'll go back to playing AAA games.

I have good news for you, programming is a 1% job...... if you don't mind dealing with some goddamn shitty motherfucking frameworks and shit. Good preparation for game programming, hahah. You can also start game development part-time while doing ANY job. I saw a gas station attendant sketching concept art, for example. Life is tough.
We worked part-time for many years and it was Early Access that let us switch to full time and finish the game.
 
Unwanted
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Two points Vogel seems to have missed:

1. Difficulty fetishists or whatever are simple to deal with: Make a harder difficulty level that's apart form your core audience. Not that hard...which brings me to..

2. Know who you want your game to be for. If you want access to a broad audience...then make your game more accessible. If you want your game to stand for a specific type of experience (aka Age of Decadence, mobile games, etc.) then go for that, but make sure you're customizing the game accordingly and listening to the applicable feedback.

It's really a simple thing, but it seems so many studios forget that fact because they chase all the $$.

Vogel always increases difficulty by adding hitpoints and damage resistance. What people really want is some gameplay that takes half a brain to figure out. Not really even difficulty per se, just some depth and something to make it interesting.
 

Johannes

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My Humble Advice For Those Who Take This Road

I'm not going to give advice to the Darkest Dungeon people. As I said, they're really talented folks, working on a game with huge potential. I could offer advice to them, but I'm often wrong, and the last thing they need is another loud voice in their heads.

Instead, I will make a humble suggestion or three to those who have yet to go down this road.

Advice One: Form An Elite Feedback Strike Force

Gamer feedback has diminishing returns. Adding more people doesn't help much. Read your feedback, find a good, diverse pool of 10-15 solid advisors, and take most of your advice from them.

Advice Two: It's OK To Stop Listening Sometimes

Trust yourself. If you start to feel confused and bereft, you have my permission to turn off the feedback hose. Take a breath. Enjoy silence and peace. Play your game yourself and see if you like it. You're the designer. If you're digging what you made, it's OK. Trust yourself.

Advice Three: Ban the Evil

This is a big one. If you have a forum and some dude attacks or insults someone else giving feedback, you must ban him. DO IT. BAN HIM. BANHIMBANHIMBANHIM. If he gets mad, tell him how to get a Steam refund. If he can't get a refund, mail him a personal check. Just get rid of him.

This is not an overreaction. The worst thing a tester can do is try to shame and scare off other people giving honest feedback. Anyone who tries to drive away other testers is a direct threat to the health of your business. Terminate with extreme prejudice.

Also, banning jerks is fun and theraputic. It is an activity I recommend highly.


It's not really bad advice per se... But all of Vogel's games have extremely consistent, fixable flaws in them. Most importantly too much trash combat, too much hp bloat rather than real challenge if you want the game not to be a total cakewalk. A huge number of people agree on these points in my experience. Not that this makes his games unprofitable, but he really could gain some extra money if he went around asking opinions from folks not part of his well-formed beta group. People who don't actively dislike his games but usually don't bother to buy them.

Not that you need a huge pool of people to take feedback from, but I doubt Vogel's beta team is very diverse.
 

gaussgunner

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It's not really bad advice per se... But all of Vogel's games have extremely consistent, fixable flaws in them. Most importantly too much trash combat, too much hp bloat rather than real challenge.....

Yeah. Hey, Vogel should get a real job so he can take the time to attempt something new and better instead of porting his old game engines and milking those rereleases.

Not that you need a huge pool of people to take feedback from, but I doubt Vogel's beta team is very diverse.

Oh I bet it's diverse... in the SJW-lover sense.

What exactly "ain't happening"? Sure, AoD was in Early Access and I think it did well. My point was that usually the content is added in stages, i.e. it's not shit until the last 10% is released.
...
We worked part-time for many years and it was Early Access that let us switch to full time and finish the game.

So it worked for you, great. I'm talking about devs who slap together a prototype in 3 months and go straight to EA with 10% functionality and a fuckton of bugs.. then they go "this is too hard, I give up"
 

Shin

Cipher
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Messages
697
Yeah. Hey, Vogel should get a real job so he can take the time to attempt something new and better instead of porting his old game engines and milking those rereleases.



Oh I bet it's diverse... in the SJW-lover sense.



So it worked for you, great. I'm talking about devs who slap together a prototype in 3 months and go straight to EA with 10% functionality and a fuckton of bugs.. then they go "this is too hard, I give up"

How the fuck would him getting 'a real job' make his games any better, you piece of shit. What games have you released in the past 20 years that were any better?
 

gaussgunner

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How the fuck would him getting 'a real job' make his games any better, you piece of shit. What games have you released in the past 20 years that were any better?
If you read his blog you would understand. Rehashing his old games is a full time job. If he could find some other job that pays as well, at least it would take his mind off the old stuff and get him out of the rut he's in. He talks like he might quit gamedev in a few years the way it's going anyway.
 

Gambler

Augur
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Messages
767
From what I understand, if I post this in a separate thread in General Gaming, it will be merged here anyway. *sigh*

Anyway, here is Jeff Vogel on The Witcher 3, why it's an interesting game and the state of modern game "critique":

The Witcher 3 Is Amazingly Written, and People Should Talk About It More

He did a good job summing up a new trend in American game journalism in one succinct paragraph:

Much modern gaming criticism is based on this basic theory: Popular culture shapes how people think, which shapes the world. Therefore, art is inherently political. It should focus on showing the world in the lovely state we want it to be, as opposed to the unpleasant way it might actually be.

There has been much abstract discussion on this subject, but The Witcher 3 coverage is a good practical example of where this mentality leads.
 

LESS T_T

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Messages
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Codex 2014
:necro:

OicyMcu.jpg


http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...urprise-you-failure-should-never-surprise-you

"Success should always surprise you. Failure should never surprise you"

The so called "Indiepocalypse" is not the calamity it has been portrayed to be. According to Spiderweb Software's Jeff Vogel, it is more of a market correction, an inevitable return to the tough, competitive conditions he has worked in for more than 20 years.

Speaking at GDC today, Vogel described Spiderweb Software as, "older than the stones and the dirt." In truth, he founded the Seattle-based studio in 1994, and he has been making a similar brand of, "old-school, cheap, retro games," ever since, all of them heavy with text and story, for whatever platforms are most open to his advances.

"Don't be ashamed if you haven't heard of any of them," he said, pointing to a slide showing a list of his work. "I don't write hits. Don't get me wrong, I love hits and I'd love to have one, but I'm in the business of writing respectable niche titles to make a respectable middle-class income."

For the majority of developers, what Vogel has achieved with Spiderweb Software is the ideal: a long career with relatively few creative compromises, making his kind of game for his kind of gamer. However, he also reminded the audience that the latter part of his career has been the kindest.

"As someone who scrambled for individual share of sales on CompuServe back in the 1990s, I can tell you that Steam is a infinite bag of miracles," he said. "People like me who had a back catalogue that went on for days could make far more money than we deserved.

"I will not be using the word, 'Indiepocalypse.' Not because the word is silly, childish and reductive. I like things that are silly childish and reductive. It's just basically inaccurate. There is no apocalypse. Indie games aren't going to go away, because we're awesome and people love what we do. But circumstances change, and we do need to pay attention."

The Indiepocalypse concept will almost certainly be familiar to attendees of an event like GDC: a chain of events kickstarted by the emergence of flexible digital distribution platforms like Steam and Xbox Live, and the emergence of some brilliant, innovative games that galvanised a new generation of developers. Braid and World of Goo made tens of thousands of people believe they could make a game, and so tens of thousands of people did just that. Eventually, Vogel said, the supply surpassed the demand.

"But the supply keeps coming in. You pass the peak and you enter what I believe we have been in for a while now: the recession period, which is a long, gruesome, agonising, bloody process... These are hard realities. There's only a finite amount of money, there's only a finite number of gaming websites with a finite amount of space to put new articles, but the games keep flooding in.

"But there is no apocalypse. Indie games aren't going anywhere... There's just going to be the occasional adjustment and the occasional, necessary shrinkage."

Vogel wasn't on stage just to kill the buzz. He, too, has felt the pressure of this "necessary shrinkage," and he had the slide to prove it.

His last four RPGs, all of them well past any initial rush of sales, describe a clear downward trend in both unit sales and dollars earned. That's despite what Vogel admitted was a broadly similar level of both quality and public reception.

"All my other games on other platforms have followed the same pattern," he continued. "The big lesson from this is that the game business is hard. It's a tough, competitive, miserable, bloodsport kind of business. There was just a time when a lot of people were making a lot of money, and it became possible to forget that fact, but now people have to remember.

"Success should always surprise you. Failure should never surprise you. That's the price you pay for living your dreams. Unfortunately, there are a certain number of people going out of business, and that will continue until life becomes tolerable for those who survive.

"Have a great day kids!"
 

Lhynn

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Sometimes im amazed at how little he can say in so many words, and that without ever straying from the path of the obvious.
 

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