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Is there any hope?

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
Yet, when it comes to 'realism != fun' - I agree, but then realism == complexity, variety, etc. I doubt you can argue with that, right?
And besides, for some, "realism ~ fun" to the very least. (untill it becomes a chore, but then its usually not something very important to begin with).
Simply because realism, like I already noted, means a lot of options to tinker with, stuff to manage, higher probability for intricate (and very fun(!) to solve) situations to occur, etc.

Realism doesn't necessarily equate to complexity. Realism just means the systems are modelled to reflect, as accurately as possible, the real world. The complexity of the simulation is almost completely independent.

Magic is a fantasy element (!realistic), but I could quite easily argue that a magic system would add complexity to a game. Likewise, I could argue that hitpoints add complexity, even though a single hit from a sword is more realistic.

Realism, in my opinion, falls under setting. I can say "Orks are t3h bestest ev4r, I <3 games wit orkz!" and you can say "Realistic games are my bag." Neither of us is right, it's just a personal preference, and I have no problem with people having their own opinion, as long as it's informed.

Properly done and configured RTwP completely eliminates twitch (unless you tweak the settings in it's favor), giving you all the time in the world to think about what do to next.
With proper interface options like queuing commands and the like (like evoked by "Z" 'action constructor'), you can also plan your actions beforehand, and then set your plan into motion, with you watching it unfold... or fail miserably, but it does involve planning and thinking.

I don't dispute that pausing can eliminate the twitch elements, and with enough time and effort put into the system, a RTwP system can theoretically do anything a TB system does. The question to ask is "How is it better?"

And about 'move + shoot'. It is possible, in theory, in E5, but due to budget 'the curse of beginner developers' issues, it was cut out, and most likely will end up in the planned expansion pack if it will be done.
As I understand, it will involve a system of 'parallel actions', where you'll be able to, say, run and reload or shoot 'from the hip', or walk and do a bit more complicated actions and making snap shots (no sniping, obviously).

Once again, I never said it was impossible, I even quoted an example where I'd seen it in action. The idea of parallel actions pretty much nails it. If you have two event queues, one for movement and one for actions, I think that's a simple enough abstraction, as long as the two interact intuitively.

And now that I've played the demo, I'd say that it's the best implementation of RTwP that I've seen. It works exceedingly well within the context of the game, given that it basically works like a "go code" in a tactical FPS, with added tactical input from the player. However, I found for anything beyond takedowns, it was confusing to track the actions of more than one squaddie.

One of the great strengths of turn based combat is the ability to see absolutely everything that goes on. I can see every shot fired at my team member, because they happen sequentially. In a RT system, where everything is happening simultaneously, I can't see the shots aimed at my sniper who sits half a map away, because I'm watching somewhere else.

The other main strength of turn-based is that its far simpler to crunch the numbers, lending a greater degree of measure to the tactics. Call it dumbing down if you will, but I think of it in the same light as controlling dozens of individual soldiers as a unit in the Total War series, it's a necessary simplification.

But thanks for turning me onto Brigade E5, I wasn't around when you first brought it to the Codex's attention, and it seems like quite an interesting and unique tactical game, even if its noticeably lacking in certain areas (many of which I'm willing to overlook, given it's a demo)
 

Balor

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
5,186
Location
Russia
Can you please state your impressions in the E5 thread?
I'll point it out to developers, and every oppinion matters.
You have good chances of your suggestoins ending up in English version of the game, or in the addon pack, if they are smart... and Codex is a good place to dig for smart ideas, heh.
 

Kamaz

Pahris Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Messages
1,042
Location
The Glorious Ancient City of Loja
SaintProverbius didn't said:
LARP fag.
Hey! Since when?! RT is no fucking LARP!

Oh wait. It is.

It's just that LARPers hate RT in cRPGs and preffer TB.

Oh well, actually I lied pretty much. But I felt like I needed this to add:P.
So, this is now RT vs TB thread? Great. Actually I agree with Spazmo pretty much because I like the way he took an example from since. And it is true - main thing in the science is to..simplify things in order to understand how they work and to operate with them more easily.

If RT actually is realistic, that, what is definite, RTwP or any implementations seen in games are really far from being realistic. That far that even TB is as close to the reality. No, seriously, whats so realistic about pressing a key to cast magic while being in paused state? Or moving characters with mouse clicks? Or, actually, pressing WASD things - we should stick with detailed step-by-step descriptions because in reality it DOES matter how you walk, how you run, how you jump. And pressing icons/keys is as much abstraction as TB.

Besides, if we had game that was really fucking realistic...no one would want to play it - that's said in this thread many times already. We play games because they are not real!
 

TheGreatGodPan

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,762
Every time I tried to download the E5 demo the internet crashed. So sorry about making you guys lose whatever you were doing online at the time :lol:
 

One Wolf

Scholar
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
311
Location
Planet X
EDIT: god DAMMIT another double post.
 

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