Is there any hope?

[Vault Dweller]

Damn, TB is DUMBED-DOWN RT.

Priceless.

 

[Elwro]

I agree the spiderweb stuff somehow lacks something,a nd I think the problem is it's too formulaic. There is a thief path, combat path, talking path for pretty much everything in geneforge, and the combat is just very poor and ill thought out, which is not so good since there is tons of it.

Did you try the Avernum series? I liked its combat more than Geneforge's. I'm in the middle of Avernum 2 and I'm loving it. (I already finished the first part.)

 

[Balor]

Priceless.

Indeed.
What's a dumbed down feature, anyway?
Something that was made less complex to make it more accessible to wider range of people.
If everyone was capable of making split-second decisions in real time like super-trained soldiers in RL, and be able to control more then one character at once this way, no one would need TB.
To make it possible, we do have TB - where you can ponder on your every move, control more then one character at once, yet...
I've came up with a lot of examples in the E5 thread how TB dumbs down combat.
I'm not gonna repeat all that... well, just a few examples, smallest ones:
In TB, there is no way in hell two combatants can kill each other dead by shooting 'at once'.
Then there are 'instant-hit' grenades...
Then we have that to 'jump from the corner, shoot, jump back, repeat untill everyone is dead' issue (yea, we have interrupts... which is a hack to deal with such problems, and kinda crude one to boot).
And there is more of that.
So, priceless indeed, VD, priceless indeed.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

Consoles are becoming more dominant by the hour to the point where it makes no sense at all to develop a PC-only title (if you care primarly about money i.e. like all big companies). And making a turn-based RPG for the XBOX etc. is even more insane than making one for the PC (from a business point of view).

Actually there are a number of tb rpgs on consoles, well at least on the Playstation. In fact the majority of rpgs on the PS2 are turnbased. Japanese rpgs are almost always tb and before someone hurts something I am not talking about Final Fantasy. The Shen Megami Tensai games are quite good, if a bit heavy on the combat. Digital Devil Saga is one of the better rpgs I have played in some time with quite a cool story and certainly a rich mythology. Also Nocturne in the SMT series is damn cool.

edit: cuz me no smart

Agree tho about ToEE. I was really hoping for a sequel to Arcanum using the ToEE engine. Christ if they could have married what was good about those two games into one (everything in Arcanum but combat, nothing from ToEE but combat)...sigh.

I love the Spiderweb games, but combat has never been their strong point. At this point the game I am most anticipating to scratch the crpg itch tb combat and all is AoD.

look at ianout at nma and ffta(simple story could possibly be gutted and converted to dnd)/ffv(simpler but better story)/fft(DEAR LORD THE STORY IT HURTS MY INT SCORE)

 

[Vault Dweller]

I love the Spiderweb games, but combat has never been their strong point. At this point the game I am most anticipating to scratch the crpg itch tb combat and all is AoD.

Just noticed that. Thanks. The combat is pretty good. Expect something of ToEE quality level or better.

 

[bryce777]

I agree the spiderweb stuff somehow lacks something,a nd I think the problem is it's too formulaic. There is a thief path, combat path, talking path for pretty much everything in geneforge, and the combat is just very poor and ill thought out, which is not so good since there is tons of it.

Did you try the Avernum series? I liked its combat more than Geneforge's. I'm in the middle of Avernum 2 and I'm loving it. (I already finished the first part.)

I had heard you talking about it, and it does sound better.

I am going to give that one a try eventually, but I realized I have about 20 games lying around I have not even opened!

 

[Elwro]

I am going to give that one a try eventually, but I realized I have about 20 games lying around I have not even opened!

Heh, I have a similar (but smaller) problem - too little time for gaming... E.g. Etherlords 2 and Sea Dogs are waiting for me for some months now.

 

[truekaiser]

Consoles are becoming more dominant by the hour to the point where it makes no sense at all to develop a PC-only title (if you care primarly about money i.e. like all big companies). And making a turn-based RPG for the XBOX etc. is even more insane than making one for the PC (from a business point of view).

Actually there are a number of tb rpgs on consoles, well at least on the Playstation. In fact the majority of rpgs on the PS2 are turnbased. Japanese rpgs are almost always tb and before someone hurts something I am not talking about Final Fantasy. The Shen Megami Tensai games are quite good, if a bit heavy on the combat. Digital Devil Saga is one of the better rpgs I have played in some time with quite a cool story and certainly a rich mythology. Also Nocturne in the SMT series is damn cool.

edit: cuz me no smart

Agree tho about ToEE. I was really hoping for a sequel to Arcanum using the ToEE engine. Christ if they could have married what was good about those two games into one (everything in Arcanum but combat, nothing from ToEE but combat)...sigh.

I love the Spiderweb games, but combat has never been their strong point. At this point the game I am most anticipating to scratch the crpg itch tb combat and all is AoD.

look at ianout at nma and ffta(simple story could possibly be gutted and converted to dnd)/ffv(simpler but better story)/fft(DEAR LORD THE STORY IT HURTS MY INT SCORE)

try orge battle and tactics ogre. they are a better series then final fantasy tactics.
in tactics ogre try to get to the bottom of the 100 floor dungeon without loosing a character. it's not as esay as it sounds

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Just for the record, what was wrong with the systems that contained both RT and TB (like Fallout: Tactics and Arcanum)? I thought Arcanum (or at least the demo) was just fine (Fallout was better because it had SPECIAL and specific aiming though), so what problems does having RP cause to TB systems?

 

[Spazmo]

I think the point Balor is making is that turn based combat is a simplified model for what's really going on, which, as we'll all agree, is happening in real time. But that's pretty much normal.

In science, we always use fairly simple models to describe stuff that's going on. Consider circuit analysis. The models we have for most electronics elements are very much simplified to make nice, neat math. What's really going on is a lot trickier. We could fully and accurately desribe what's going in, say, a capacitor, but why bother? C=Q/V is a lot easier and it's usually accurate enough. Same deal in mechanics: Newtonian mechanics are nice and neat and mathematically appealing (F=ma is delightful). But we've got relativity, which is cool, but kind of a pain in the butt to deal with. So, we mostly just ignore it. Yeah, our answers will be off by a tiny, tiny bit, and there'll be occasional fudging (in circuit analysis, ideal models for elements often fail to work in certain circumstances), but we stick to our simplified models mostly to avoid headaches.

Same thing, I'd say, in RPG combat. Yes, real time is strictly more accurate, but it's not as fun and comes out as being more of a pain in the butt. The simplified model (turn based) ends up being more useful and more powerful.

And finally, remember what I think ought to become one of the golden rules of game design in modern gaming:

REALISM DOES NOT EQUAL FUN!

 

[One Wolf]

REALISM DOES NOT EQUAL FUN!

this is definitely true. this is also why i don't undertand The Sims series of games. my god, if i wanted realism, i'd go out and do real shit, not sit and play video games. i play games to escape from reality, not to experience it in a virtual environment. of course at the same time a certain measure of realism in games (especially rpgs) is certainly condusive to my entertainment.

that didn't make sense. what the hell am i talkin about?

 

[truekaiser]

REALISM DOES NOT EQUAL FUN!

it's not as clear cut as that.
while some realism is not fun, ie controling your character going to the bathroom or eating.

on the other hand realism such as puting a inventory weight limit, preventing small characters like half-lings etc from wearing the heavyest armor or long claymores.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

What's a dumbed down feature, anyway?
Something that was made less complex to make it more accessible to wider range of people.
If everyone was capable of making split-second decisions in real time like super-trained soldiers in RL, and be able to control more then one character at once this way, no one would need TB.

LARP fag.

Having super fast reflexes and the ability to bust a move on an interface doesn't make you smart. Being able to work a system to the best of the abilities of your character when dealing with equally stacked or superior forces does. That's what turn based allows.

In TB, there is no way in hell two combatants can kill each other dead by shooting 'at once'.

Sure there is. It depends on the damage system. If the damage system allows wounding, then it's entirely possible to have two combatants kill one another during a round(round being a set of turns).

Then there are 'instant-hit' grenades...

It's possible to make travel time for grenades, but then what point would they be other than forcing enemies to burn a turn running away from the target location? Of course, it all depends on how long you want your round to take in real time.

Since you brought up realism, though.. How often do people dodge grenades in REALITY? Probably not often.

Then we have that to 'jump from the corner, shoot, jump back, repeat untill everyone is dead' issue (yea, we have interrupts... which is a hack to deal with such problems, and kinda crude one to boot).

Which can be solved by GRENADES, actually. Or the ability to shoot through walls. Or even an AI that's smart enough to flank positions.

Interrupts are hardly a crude hack considering how combat in real life plays out with guns. Typically, if you and another guy are shooting at one another, one of you is covering while the other is firing. An interrupt is just a way of handling a situation where the enemy uncovers while you're not entirely done shooting and vice versa.

Flash forward to real time, which is most certainly dumbed down when it comes to gun combat, you have two guys standing in the open blasting each other until one falls down. How smart is that? It's not. It's stupid.

And there is more of that.

Well, don't strain yourself coming up with more. Wouldn't want you to rupture anything.

 

[bryce777]

Balor won't be satisfied til he has a realtime gayslaying game.

 

[Section8]

Just for the record, what was wrong with the systems that contained both RT and TB (like Fallout: Tactics and Arcanum)? I thought Arcanum (or at least the demo) was just fine (Fallout was better because it had SPECIAL and specific aiming though), so what problems does having RP cause to TB systems?

It's basically a two-fold problem. First of all, you have to dedicate time and resources to developing both, and given the tight schedules most devs are tied to, then it's generally better to focus your energies on one. Second of all, no matter how you design your systems, there are certain aspects to both systems that are incapable of overlapping.

Indeed.
What's a dumbed down feature, anyway?
Something that was made less complex to make it more accessible to wider range of people.

Reducing the twitch elements is not the sole purpose of turn-based systems. TB systems allow complexity far beyond that which can be reasonably controlled in RT. Added complexity is pretty much the antonym of dumbing down, as you yourself recognise...

If everyone was capable of making split-second decisions in real time like super-trained soldiers in RL, and be able to control more then one character at once this way, no one would need TB.

I fail to see how giving the player time to think as opposed to react is dumbing down. Accessible != Dumbing Down.

I'm not gonna repeat all that... well, just a few examples, smallest ones:
In TB, there is no way in hell two combatants can kill each other dead by shooting 'at once'.

Yes there is. If the implementation allows an interupt between <fire weapon> and <inflict damage> then that can happen very easily. Just like a RT system would require specific functionality to be implemented, ie allowing an action to conclude before <character death> functions do their work, given the very slim chance of two characters inflicting a killing blow in the same tick.

Then there are 'instant-hit' grenades...

Once again, all it requires is an interupt on <throw grenade>, or even better on <grenade landed close>, so then you can run/dive/pick it up and throw it back/try and defuse it/smother it (if its got a flaming wick )/dive on it to sacrifice one character/etc. and nearly every single one of those actions would be exceedingly difficult to provide an effective interface for in RT.

Then we have that to 'jump from the corner, shoot, jump back, repeat untill everyone is dead' issue (yea, we have interrupts... which is a hack to deal with such problems, and kinda crude one to boot).

No, what we have is a perfectly plausible representation of what actually happens in a gunfight. A smart gunman stays behind cover and either shoots, fairly blindly, or waits for their opponent to pop up, and that's what interupt represents. If you're talking realism, then it beats the shit out of two guys standing out in the open and trading shots, but really, realism should always take a back seat to gamism.

Simply put, TB provides elegant solutions to many layers of complexity. For instance, I've only seen a single RT system that allows movement and shooting simultaneously, and ironically, that was in a X-Com:Apocalypse where the TB mode was far better, in my opinion.

 

[Balor]

Ok, while I replied to everything like that before, let me repeat it:
In fact, do like TB myself - It's a fun in it's own right. Only I, also, don't consider it something sacred or perfect (nothing's sacred, or perfect!).

Yet, when it comes to 'realism != fun' - I agree, but then realism == complexity, variety, etc. I doubt you can argue with that, right?
And besides, for some, "realism ~ fun" to the very least. (untill it becomes a chore, but then its usually not something very important to begin with).
Simply because realism, like I already noted, means a lot of options to tinker with, stuff to manage, higher probability for intricate (and very fun(!) to solve) situations to occur, etc.
Oh, and btw...
"Accessible != Dumbing Down."
How about "Accessible to bloody stupid idiots"? Oh well, I know it's juggling words, but anyway.

Properly done and configured RTwP completely eliminates twitch (unless you tweak the settings in it's favor), giving you all the time in the world to think about what do to next.
With proper interface options like queuing commands and the like (like evoked by "Z" 'action constructor'), you can also plan your actions beforehand, and then set your plan into motion, with you watching it unfold... or fail miserably, but it does involve planning and thinking.
Oh, what am I talking about, it was said 10 times before in E5 thread. And before you slap "It suxxx!!!11" label to SPM, can you please try and download the demo and see it for yourself? Too much to ask, huh?
Preferably read some discussion on Bear's Pit about it too - the system is very intricate, some of it's options, while easy to use, not documented in demo and easy to overlook, like abovementioned "Z", multiple options of grenade throwing, FPS 'view' and it's uses, alt+shoot, burst modes, etc, etc. It all described in the manual that comes with the actual game, but demo lacks it.

P.S.
And about 'move + shoot'. It is possible, in theory, in E5, but due to budget 'the curse of beginner developers' issues, it was cut out, and most likely will end up in the planned expansion pack if it will be done.
As I understand, it will involve a system of 'parallel actions', where you'll be able to, say, run and reload or shoot 'from the hip', or walk and do a bit more complicated actions and making snap shots (no sniping, obviously).

P.S.S.
I understand why everyone is biased towards pure RT.
But I suspect that the reason to hate it is flawed.
It is not 'evil' or 'dumb' by itself.
However, to make it manageable, it HAVE to be dumbed down. Otherwise, see the 'control mulitple charcters with ability to make split-second decisions' issue.
But properly done RTwP solves all this without making the process too burdensome, and w/o taking away the realism of RT.
E5 SPM is properly done RTwP .
P. S*N.
And no, I'm not fanboy of E5. It does have it's share of problems that are, unfortunately, mostly becase of 'not enough time&money' issue. Yet, it's system is almost perfect when it comes to realism, playablity and generally being fun to play. I bet you can do better, but I really doubt you can do this with TB.

 

[Human Shield]

Can you give a link to this demo?

RPGs are about a character's stats, not the player's ability.

Did they model character reaction time? Or can you push pause as soon as you can and change orders? RT with pause gives all characters bullet time, something go a bit wrong? Change it the next second.

Can one bullet kill you in the game? Most RT games take damage systems from TB games, except now you are seeing your character get hit with 5 bullets in real time instead of an abstraction of time, breaking immersion even more.

TB will always have more planning because changes are less flexible. RT games come down to getting in place to kill the next guy, and if something goes wrong you can get out quick. If you go the wrong corner without scouting it in TB you end up dead.

Planning how to best use limited actions in a turn will always be more advanced then setting up queues. You have confines in TB you have to think thru, you want to run and gun? Easy in RT, you have to time the best uses and correct distances in TB.

 

[Balor]

Can you give a link to this demo?

http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/brig ... o/474.html
And here is the patch link:
http://www1.tepkom.ru/users/vi/E5Demo_p ... 05_eng.exe
(Also fixes it being Russian, heh).

Did they model character reaction time? Or can you push pause as soon as you can and change orders? RT with pause gives all characters bullet time, something go a bit wrong? Change it the next second.

How fast your character performs orders depends on many factors, stats like dexterity and reaction do play their role in it. Time to perform actions is measured up to hundredth of a second, and each one of it matters.
Being hit by bullets, having enemy jump out in front of you puts in into 'shock' (stupor) for a brief time... which depends on your reaction and experience stat. Drugs can help you temporally overcome such effects.
Handguns do rule is close quarter combat now, because they can be fired split-second faster... which is difference between life and death, sometimes. Even if you/enemy will not be killed by first bullet, shock will prevent you/enemy from retaliating for some time... usually it is long enough for more shots to follow.
Some actions are uninterruptable, too.

TB will always have more planning because changes are less flexible. RT games come down to getting in place to kill the next guy, and if something goes wrong you can get out quick. If you go the wrong corner without scouting it in TB you end up dead.

Reminds the thread about spell system in ADnD... which is fun, but I still think it has to place in CRPGs. Do I have to explain?
Just a hint ‘turn the wrong corner with 0 AP' == dead’ is not 'tactical' - it's stupid. Cause you may be uber god in reaction and stats, the meeting guy may be complete lameass, yet you’ll die like a dog.
In E5, both will get some shock... or not, depends on now their stats, and whether any of you were expecting the encounter. You can move with a weapon ‘at the ready’, which is much more tiring, yet is signify that you will are prepared for encounters, getting much less likely to go into stupor if you’ll meet an enemy. (And a nice bonus of not having to ready you weapon when you do, logically).
Enemy, in turn, can 'cover' the corners, which means he'll shoot the very instant you'll show yourself... and unless he'll miss, you're a toast.
To counter such tactics, you need either grenades, or flanking maneuvers.
The situation is completely reversible. AI knows how to use this, and how to counter it too. More often then not you'll end up shoot in then back of your head gulag-style or 'catch' a frag, if you’ll play the ‘wait for stupid bot to turn the corner and shoot’ game too often.

Oh, and about ‘dead at the first shot’ - you’ll see this pretty often until you/enemies will get decently armored. (My personal record - 1 wonded, 2 dead at one shot )
And bullet to the head is almost always fatal.
There are, also, ‘criticals’ when enemy is considered to die from pain shock. (Less chance for AP rounds that usually leave clean wounds) Sometimes it happens from shots into legs, even. I bet it’s not exactly legs :twisted:.
Good armor (which pretty heavy, though) do make you nearly impervious to handguns and not AP machinegun/assault rifle bullets (shock and stamina loss notwithstanding).
A sniper with AP rounds means trouble to even the most armored ‘tanks’, though...
and no headgear will stop AP rifle bullet, unless it’s a glancing hit, and you can survive that even w/o a helmet.
And even it’ll stop one, you will not live past that anyway. Broken neck is as bad as hole in your head.

 

[Section8]

Downloading the demo now, and then we'll continue our discussion.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

(nothing's sacred, or perfect!).

Yet, when it comes to 'realism != fun' - I agree, but then realism == complexity, variety, etc. I doubt you can argue with that, right?
And besides, for some, "realism ~ fun" to the very least. (untill it becomes a chore, but then its usually not something very important to begin with).
Simply because realism, like I already noted, means a lot of options to tinker with, stuff to manage, higher probability for intricate (and very fun(!) to solve) situations to occur, etc.
Oh, and btw...
"Accessible != Dumbing Down."
How about "Accessible to bloody stupid idiots"? Oh well, I know it's juggling words, but anyway.

Properly done and configured RTwP completely eliminates twitch (unless you tweak the settings in it's favor), giving you all the time in the world to think about what do to next.
With proper interface options like queuing commands and the like (like evoked by "Z" 'action constructor'), you can also plan your actions beforehand, and then set your plan into motion, with you watching it unfold... or fail miserably, but it does involve planning and thinking.
P.S.S.
I understand why everyone is biased towards pure RT.
But I suspect that the reason to hate it is flawed.
It is not 'evil' or 'dumb' by itself.
However, to make it manageable, it HAVE to be dumbed down. Otherwise, see the 'control mulitple charcters with ability to make split-second decisions' issue.
But properly done RTwP solves all this without making the process too burdensome, and w/o taking away the realism of RT.
E5 SPM is properly done RTwP .
.

thats why i defend kotor its as close to starwars d20 as it gets without being straight d20 imho

 

[Crichton]

thats why i defend kotor its as close to starwars d20 as it gets without being straight d20 imho

That's not true.

-The damage values are wrong (1d6 for a blaster pistol wtf?)
-Shields don't work right
-lightsabers ignore armor in SWd20
-jedi powaz implementation = fubar
- # of attacks per round / BAB are also completely wrong

I mention only these b/c none of these are engine issues, they chose to f*ck them up, bioware / obsidion don't have any more respect for SWd20 than they did for 3rd edition AD&D in NWN. I can understand why they made some of these changes, but I think most of them were seriously detrimental.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

Consoles are becoming more dominant by the hour to the point where it makes no sense at all to develop a PC-only title (if you care primarly about money i.e. like all big companies). And making a turn-based RPG for the XBOX etc. is even more insane than making one for the PC (from a business point of view).

Actually there are a number of tb rpgs on consoles, well at least on the Playstation. In fact the majority of rpgs on the PS2 are turnbased. Japanese rpgs are almost always tb and before someone hurts something I am not talking about Final Fantasy. The Shen Megami Tensai games are quite good, if a bit heavy on the combat. Digital Devil Saga is one of the better rpgs I have played in some time with quite a cool story and certainly a rich mythology. Also Nocturne in the SMT series is damn cool.

edit: cuz me no smart

Agree tho about ToEE. I was really hoping for a sequel to Arcanum using the ToEE engine. Christ if they could have married what was good about those two games into one (everything in Arcanum but combat, nothing from ToEE but combat)...sigh.

I love the Spiderweb games, but combat has never been their strong point. At this point the game I am most anticipating to scratch the crpg itch tb combat and all is AoD.

look at ianout at nma and ffta(simple story could possibly be gutted and converted to dnd)/ffv(simpler but better story)/fft(DEAR LORD THE STORY IT HURTS MY INT SCORE)

try orge battle and tactics ogre. they are a better series then final fantasy tactics.
in tactics ogre try to get to the bottom of the 100 floor dungeon without loosing a character. it's not as esay as it sounds

i wish there was a real dnd rpg instead of ffta, ogre(made by same person)

and ffta is portable...i just wish that we had ffv:ta instead of fft and ffta imagine the chars from ffv with the requirements of having the proper experiences (steal valuble over 5000 gil, get out in time, etc) and getting trained

id much rather have AoW2 which was actually a game where graphics and gameplay were improved simultaneously while the interface was simplified and the game was made more complex(politcs meant something)
p.s. we should make an auction house for rpgs, tbs, rts, etc and a webzine

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

thats why i defend kotor its as close to starwars d20 as it gets without being straight d20 imho

That's not true.

-The damage values are wrong (1d6 for a blaster pistol wtf?)
-Shields don't work right
-lightsabers ignore armor in SWd20
-jedi powaz implementation = fubar
- # of attacks per round / BAB are also completely wrong

I mention only these b/c none of these are engine issues, they chose to f*ck them up, bioware / obsidion don't have any more respect for SWd20 than they did for 3rd edition AD&D in NWN. I can understand why they made some of these changes, but I think most of them were seriously detrimental.

note the; without being straight d20

 

[Crichton]

Even if everything I mentioned were changed, it still wouldn't be close to straight d20 b/c

a) it's RTwP (or as bioware likes to put it "real-time turn based combat!")

b) the multiclassing is almost non-existant

c) the feats are all wrong

d) the damage / critical system is different (though I prefer it)

e) it doesn't take into account range penalties / LOS / Cover creating really lame ranged combat

Most of these, however, are engine issues, so if they wanted to use NWN's crummy engine, they were probably stuck with them. But all of the initial changes I listed were completely uneccesary.

 

[undead dolphin hacker]

Damn, TB is DUMBED-DOWN RT.

Priceless.

dumbfuck tag plz

try orge battle and tactics ogre. they are a better series then final fantasy tactics.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha