Is Cyberpunk 2077 an RPG?

[Thac0]

I employ a very loose definition of RPG by which a lot of stuff can pass as one that passes not for a lot of people. Witcher, Fallout 3-4, that one Terminator game, Elder Scrolls, all are (bad) rpgs to me. Cyberpunk is not.

It is as much of an RPG as Borderlands. It is a looter shooter with unusually distinct character classes.

Why would you consider Fallout 4 an RPG but Cyberpunk not? I would see it the other way around.

So what is the defining quality, basically?

Basically for me rpgs are defined a lot about the progression and the class. If your class has meaningfull impact on the game and leads to changes in narrative or gameplay the game is more rpg.
Cyberpunk doesn't really lock you into the class. I am 15 hours in, highest difficulty, and I can shoot with every gun I pick up to great success. My build is tech, and my class has payoffs like my grenades being super OP and my tech weaponry performing noticably better. But due to the hard number bloat and level scaling half of the time I am rocking non tech assault rifles or shotguns or some other shit, which should not be in my class. Outside of combat there is barely any payoff, I get some unique dialogue options for having high tech and corpo, but they only have gameplay choices extremely rarely. No extra XP from checks, no extra cash or items, no extra gameplay paths. My path and my class feel like windowdressing, people act like I am a corp but in the end I am playing exactly the same game as if I was a heavy weapons nomad. It is larping as an rpg.

I played Fallout 4 twice. Dropped it the first time after 20 hours or so because fuck Bethesda rpgs. Second time I played with the difficulty where you need to eat, sleep and drink to not die, you can only save on sleeping spots, you can get aids and addictions and shit and bullet damage is amped up for you and enemies. That was really fun, I had a gunslinger/luck built and due to the game being so brutal I could only really use pistol type weapons. I specced relatively heavy into the non combat attributes, giving me a strong income of cash and general survival stuff through the medicine, lockpicking and hacking perks. But my physical stats were low, so I died by a single bullet and I always had to fumble with carry weight. To counteract this I specced into longer power cores and spent most of the game in power armor. I finished the game on that run.

In Cyberpunk I do not really have a distinct build and I experience the game in the same way as everyone else. In F4 I had a distinct built which at least somewhat customised my experience.

 

[Pablosdog]

Its an action adventure title(seriously) inspired by a pnp game. Games can have rpg elements but it doesn't make them rpgs, then sports titles would fucking qualify.

Character Skill> Player Skill should be the dominant factor. Ask yourself if the game would still functionally be the same without those rpg mechanics.

 

[Lord of Riva]

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Maybe i'll give F4 another whirl with survival mode, maybe that will change my perspective.

 

[Butter]

No character creation = not RPG. PBfags btfo.

 

[Thac0]

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Maybe i'll give F4 another whirl with survival mode, maybe that will change my perspective.

I would recommend it. Then again I am a sucker for those things in rpgs, and it really elevates Fallout NV for me. Getting a level up and new skills/perks feels much more rewarding, when instead of dealing 5% more damage it now means you have to worry about dying from aids much less.

 

[DalekFlay]

If an RPG is character design and systems over player skill then lol of course not.

If an RPG is player choice impacting the world and story then not really, choices seem 95% flavor dialog in my experience with some minor stuff like Royce/Stout being exceptions.

If an RPG is stat and perk choices that define a playstyle then I'd say yes, more or less, though the limited impact of many of these choices would make it a poor RPG.

If an RPG is leveled enemies and loot then yes.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Fine by me. Now, if a non-RPG was Codex RPGOTY 2015, why wouldn't another non-RPG contest the same prize in 2020?

Also funny that even if we agree that none of them are RPGs, CP2077 has more RPG elements in it than TW3.

Ah yes the classic retard fanboy practice of trashing the developer's previous title to build up the current steaming pile of shit. Bethesda fanfags did the same thing with Oblivion, and then Skyrim after it. Your act is stale.

Your brain is stale. You are welcome to find a post by me where I say Witcher 3 is a) an RPG or b) a good RPG.

You wouldn't be trashing Witcher 3 if it wasn't convenient to your hilariously pathetic attempt to build up Cybpershit. Go choke on a dildo.

Please show any evidence of me trying to buld up Cyberpunk you butthurt moron.

Maybe I'm some kind of deep undercover fanboy who doesn't vote for the games he is shilling for and is being objective about their flaws all the time. Very cunning of me, no doubt.

 

[Sigourn]

Its an action adventure title(seriously) inspired by a pnp game. Games can have rpg elements but it doesn't make them rpgs, then sports titles would fucking qualify.

Character Skill> Player Skill should be the dominant factor. Ask yourself if the game would still functionally be the same without those rpg mechanics.

This and darkpatriot's "felt I am playing an RPG" are the most important statements.
Many games have RPG elements, and many games scratch the RPG itch, even if they are action RPGs. But ultimately it doesn't boil down to the mechanics simply being there, but whether it really feels like you are playing an RPG.

Case New Vegas: in combat, I don't feel like I'm playing an RPG. In dialogue and quest branches, it does.
Case Deus Ex: in combat, it doesn't feel like I'm playing an RPG. Neither it does in dialogue. But my upgrades and augmentations do make me feel like I'm playing an RPG when it comes to tackling obstacles the way I want to.
Case Skyrim: it never feels like I'm playing an RPG at all. There are very few quests with branching. Combat always pretty much feels the same, thanks to level scaling and the low difficulty. Dialogue options are near unexisting. It has RPG mechanics, but they never matter enough to fool me into thinking "ah, yes, this is an RPG".

 

[Gargaune]

The problem really is that the effect of skills on combat in a real-time environment is rarely satisfying. It results in either a frustrating miss fest because skills are tied to to-hit chance (Morrowind at low levels, Deus Ex's implementation of aiming, VTMB too iirc)

Just an observation here, but as a system concept, why do you feel that tying bullet spread to skill progression is that much worse than non-progressing bullet spread? Because most modern FPS games have bullet spread, at least they did last time I checked, and they have it varying with those exact same triggers of recoil and movement sway. Balance aside, all the Deus Ex formula does is slap it onto a progression scale with skill points.

No argument on skill-based damage scaling, I'm not a fan of that in Action-RPGs.

Many games have RPG elements, and many games scratch the RPG itch, even if they are action RPGs.

Hold up, but then isn't this a simple taxonomy issue? 'Cause I get the feeling that when you say "RPG" you mean "cRPG", whereas when I say "RPG" I think of the general umbrella category that includes both "cRPG" and "Action/Action-Adventure RPG." So, for instance, you've got Baldur's Gate for a cRPG and Deus Ex as an Action-Adventure RPG, they both fall under RPG in general, but obviously that doesn't make Deus Ex a cRPG.

 

[Alexios]

Its an action adventure title(seriously) inspired by a pnp game. Games can have rpg elements but it doesn't make them rpgs, then sports titles would fucking qualify.

Character Skill> Player Skill should be the dominant factor. Ask yourself if the game would still functionally be the same without those rpg mechanics.

This and darkpatriot's "felt I am playing an RPG" are the most important statements.
Many games have RPG elements, and many games scratch the RPG itch, even if they are action RPGs. But ultimately it doesn't boil down to the mechanics simply being there, but whether it really feels like you are playing an RPG.

Case New Vegas: in combat, I don't feel like I'm playing an RPG. In dialogue and quest branches, it does.
Case Deus Ex: in combat, it doesn't feel like I'm playing an RPG. Neither it does in dialogue. But my upgrades and augmentations do make me feel like I'm playing an RPG when it comes to tackling obstacles the way I want to.
Case Skyrim: it never feels like I'm playing an RPG at all. There are very few quests with branching. Combat always pretty much feels the same, thanks to level scaling and the low difficulty. Dialogue options are near unexisting. It has RPG mechanics, but they never matter enough to fool me into thinking "ah, yes, this is an RPG".

This is a pretty good way of looking at it. A good question to ask yourself is: how much do my choices in character creation, dialogue, and combat, actually matter? For something to be an RPG two or three of these elements should be heavily choice-dependent. In Cyberpunk (similar to Skyrim and Fallout 4) your choices in these three areas matter almost not at all. Character creation has little to no impact on how the game plays. In dialogue there is almost always only one choice (with different ways of saying it - good use of VA resources!) In combat you can use a couple different guns, a shitty sword, or hacking. Contrast this to any one of the myriad of classic RPGs and you see how grossly different it is. To consider this trash an RPG you'd have to consider Skyrim and Fallout 4 RPGs. There's no way around it.

 

[Sigourn]

Many games have RPG elements, and many games scratch the RPG itch, even if they are action RPGs.

Hold up, but then isn't this a simple taxonomy issue? 'Cause I get the feeling that when you say "RPG" you mean "cRPG", whereas when I say "RPG" I think of the general umbrella category that includes both "cRPG" and "Action/Action-Adventure RPG." So, for instance, you've got Baldur's Gate for a cRPG and Deus Ex as an Action-Adventure RPG, they both fall under RPG in general, but obviously that doesn't make Deus Ex a cRPG.

I do mean "cRPG" but in a general, "this is the baseline from which other games should compare to", without going too far into "if it has action, it's not an RPG" territory.
I do think Deus Ex is an "action-adventure RPG" as you said.

 

[vota DC]

It has RPG elements, though.

Not exactly a ton of them, but enough to be called an Action-RPG.

San Andreas has RPG elements as well.

San Andreas on RPGCodex Top 100 when?

Has done some things perfectly like eating much and become fat. It is even better than proper rpg in some small parts.

 

[Gargaune]

Many games have RPG elements, and many games scratch the RPG itch, even if they are action RPGs.

Hold up, but then isn't this a simple taxonomy issue? 'Cause I get the feeling that when you say "RPG" you mean "cRPG", whereas when I say "RPG" I think of the general umbrella category that includes both "cRPG" and "Action/Action-Adventure RPG." So, for instance, you've got Baldur's Gate for a cRPG and Deus Ex as an Action-Adventure RPG, they both fall under RPG in general, but obviously that doesn't make Deus Ex a cRPG.

I do mean "cRPG" but in a general, "this is the baseline from which other games should compare to", without going too far into "if it has action, it's not an RPG" territory.
I do think Deus Ex is an "action-adventure RPG" as you said.

Cool, I follow now. Sometimes all this "what is an RPG?" waffle feels like Monty Python trying to cross the Bridge of Death.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

If you claim Cyberpunk 2077 is not an RPG, then you have to explain how Witcher 3 is Codex RPGOTY 2015. Apparently you are in the minority on this prestigious site.
.

Easy.

This site is inundated with poles and other assorted east fags spamming the forum with their shit games.

DISQUALIFIED

 

[Takamori]

Barebones as it is, still an RPG I guess? Almost an FPS with light RPG elements.

 

[Funposter]

The problem really is that the effect of skills on combat in a real-time environment is rarely satisfying. It results in either a frustrating miss fest because skills are tied to to-hit chance (Morrowind at low levels, Deus Ex's implementation of aiming, VTMB too iirc)

Just an observation here, but as a system concept, why do you feel that tying bullet spread to skill progression is that much worse than non-progressing bullet spread? Because most modern FPS games have bullet spread, at least they did last time I checked, and they have it varying with those exact same triggers of recoil and movement sway. Balance aside, all the Deus Ex formula does is slap it onto a progression scale with skill points.

No argument on skill-based damage scaling, I'm not a fan of that in Action-RPGs.

The argument is more around how it's handled. Deus Ex has that "hold the reticule over the enemy and wait for it to get smaller" system which puts a halt to gameplay and is absolute dogshit. There's probably better examples, but tying it directly to spread and having it tighten as the player levels up is how GRAND THEFT AUTO: SAN ANDREAS, THE GREATEST RPG OF ALL TIME handled it and I really enjoyed the progression from shitty gangster who can barely hit the broad side of a barn to master assassin/sharpshooter that game offers, especially when you learned how to dual wield SMGs and turned into a hyper mobile death machine.

 

[Yosharian]

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Maybe i'll give F4 another whirl with survival mode, maybe that will change my perspective.

I would recommend it. Then again I am a sucker for those things in rpgs, and it really elevates Fallout NV for me. Getting a level up and new skills/perks feels much more rewarding, when instead of dealing 5% more damage it now means you have to worry about dying from aids much less.

Forget survival mode, just play a Horizon modlist like F4EE 1.2

 

[Yosharian]

I employ a very loose definition of RPG by which a lot of stuff can pass as one that passes not for a lot of people. Witcher, Fallout 3-4, that one Terminator game, Elder Scrolls, all are (bad) rpgs to me. Cyberpunk is not.

It is as much of an RPG as Borderlands. It is a looter shooter with unusually distinct character classes.

Why would you consider Fallout 4 an RPG but Cyberpunk not? I would see it the other way around.

So what is the defining quality, basically?

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077. In FO4 you are presented with different choices, usually at least 3-4. In CP2077 there's one choice usually, sometimes you get two if you're really lucky, and the dialogue that your character speaks is pretty generic, doesn't change.

Note that I'm not saying FO4's dialogue system is actually good. Just better than CP2077's.

Remember that DA2, an RPG that basically heralded the demise of Bioware as a developer, had protagonist dialogue that changed automatically as a result of the most common choices you made. If you mostly picked sarcastic or whatever, your character acted more like that during dialogues. And this is DA2 we're talking about, one of the worst triple A RPGs in modern gaming.

This shows how far gaming in general has fallen.

 

[thesheeep]

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077. In FO4 you are presented with different choices, usually at least 3-4.

No you are not.
The vast majority of "different" choices in F4 lead to the very same results. It's all just smoke and mirrors.

I'd rather have something like CP2077 that is at least honest about there not being choices instead of presenting fake ones.

Actual choices would have been better, obviously, in both games.
But it's clear that they were cut from Cyberpunk (as so many other things obviously were). While in F4, they were never planned to begin with - the smoke & mirrors was the plan.
Not sure how much of CP2077 will be restored to its original plan in the next year or two - who knows, maybe there will be choices at some point (probably not, though).

 

[JDR13]

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077.

 

[AwesomeButton]

If you claim Cyberpunk 2077 is not an RPG, then you have to explain how Witcher 3 is Codex RPGOTY 2015. Apparently you are in the minority on this prestigious site.
.

Easy.

This site is inundated with poles and other assorted east fags spamming the forum with their shit games.

DISQUALIFIED

We need to hold new polls without the poles and non-rpgs

 

[res11]

I employ a very loose definition of RPG by which a lot of stuff can pass as one that passes not for a lot of people. Witcher, Fallout 3-4, that one Terminator game, Elder Scrolls, all are (bad) rpgs to me. Cyberpunk is not.

It is as much of an RPG as Borderlands. It is a looter shooter with unusually distinct character classes.

Why would you consider Fallout 4 an RPG but Cyberpunk not? I would see it the other way around.

So what is the defining quality, basically?

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077.

 

[Yosharian]

I employ a very loose definition of RPG by which a lot of stuff can pass as one that passes not for a lot of people. Witcher, Fallout 3-4, that one Terminator game, Elder Scrolls, all are (bad) rpgs to me. Cyberpunk is not.

It is as much of an RPG as Borderlands. It is a looter shooter with unusually distinct character classes.

Why would you consider Fallout 4 an RPG but Cyberpunk not? I would see it the other way around.

So what is the defining quality, basically?

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077.

Spoiler

Still better than Cyberpunk 2077

 

[res11]

I employ a very loose definition of RPG by which a lot of stuff can pass as one that passes not for a lot of people. Witcher, Fallout 3-4, that one Terminator game, Elder Scrolls, all are (bad) rpgs to me. Cyberpunk is not.

It is as much of an RPG as Borderlands. It is a looter shooter with unusually distinct character classes.

Why would you consider Fallout 4 an RPG but Cyberpunk not? I would see it the other way around.

So what is the defining quality, basically?

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077.

Spoiler

Still better than Cyberpunk 2077

Cyberpunk dialogue is at worst dull, never pants on head retarded like in Fallout 4 where they deliberately had to hide it behind 2 word paraphrases.

 

[Yosharian]

I employ a very loose definition of RPG by which a lot of stuff can pass as one that passes not for a lot of people. Witcher, Fallout 3-4, that one Terminator game, Elder Scrolls, all are (bad) rpgs to me. Cyberpunk is not.

It is as much of an RPG as Borderlands. It is a looter shooter with unusually distinct character classes.

Why would you consider Fallout 4 an RPG but Cyberpunk not? I would see it the other way around.

So what is the defining quality, basically?

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077.

Spoiler

Still better than Cyberpunk 2077

Cyberpunk dialogue is at worst dull, never pants on head retarded like in Fallout 4 where they deliberately had to hide it behind 2 word paraphrases.

I dunno if you're deliberately not reading what I wrote or what, I'm talking about the dialogue SYSTEM not the quality of the dialogue itself.

 

[res11]

I employ a very loose definition of RPG by which a lot of stuff can pass as one that passes not for a lot of people. Witcher, Fallout 3-4, that one Terminator game, Elder Scrolls, all are (bad) rpgs to me. Cyberpunk is not.

It is as much of an RPG as Borderlands. It is a looter shooter with unusually distinct character classes.

Why would you consider Fallout 4 an RPG but Cyberpunk not? I would see it the other way around.

So what is the defining quality, basically?

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077.

Spoiler

Still better than Cyberpunk 2077

Cyberpunk dialogue is at worst dull, never pants on head retarded like in Fallout 4 where they deliberately had to hide it behind 2 word paraphrases.

I dunno if you're deliberately not reading what I wrote or what, I'm talking about the dialogue SYSTEM not the quality of the dialogue itself.

And I also commented about the dialogue system. Fallout 4 dialogue system features giving you retarded 2 word paraphrases for each choice to mask how shitty it is. The dialogue system in Cyberpunk is at least honest about the options it gives you. Also forcing a "sarcastic" option in a lot of conversations.